XJT MEC declares war on ASA pilots.

[drinksonme]

The back on forth on this issue is amazing. I am just gonna put this out there, as someone who is NOT in the know, and does not find pleasure in trying to divide our groups as to protect only their own a$$ and way of life. The OP's continued spouting of garbage is sad. Though he may think that he is in the know, I personally believe he knows someone in the know, and then warps what he hears to fit his preception of the little know facts that he gets. XJT APLA is not trying to hide anything on this issue. They worked hard, as it is required by an LOA in our contract, to look at PBS systems. They made all that information available to the pilots and even would do live demos with individual pilots to see how the systems worked. This included ASA's current system. When I asked a rep what ASA MEC has done like this with our system, or with other PBS systems....answer is they have done nothing.

Now lets get into the whole rewarding out of seniority order system and untested system stuff. For those of you that are not aware, XJT line bidding has 2 phases. 1st phase is to award pre-built lines by our system. Every pilot can bid this phase, regardless if your seniority holds a line or not. After it closes, pilot who bid and held a line get their line for next month. This usually happens within the first 8 days. So how bout that.....line holders at XJT know their next months schedule up 20 days prior. Then we have the Initial Line Improvement Window or ILIW, which is open for 24 hours on a set date, normally in the middle of the month. For those 24 hours, pilots who held lines may go into Sked+ and pick up, trade, drop, etc...trips to personalize their schedules. This is first come first serve, so seniority is not taken into account. After that concludes, and within a few days, the Secondary Bid window opens. This bid is for pilots who did not hold a line, and consists of Relief Lines (Crew Planning built schedules to cover open time) and Reserve Lines. Again, you hold what your seniority can hold. The relief lines are the wild card. The trips are unknown and, after the bid closes, are added to a relief line pilots schedule by Crew Planning. Crew Planning is to look at Requests of Relief Line pilots prior to building a line in seniority order. This is where the problem is and I will discuss later as it relates to "delcaring war on ASA pilots." Once all relief lines are built and set, the Secondary Line Improvement Window opens for the entire bid month, and all pilots, except Reserve, may trade, drop, pick up, etc...to improve their schedules. Again based on a first come first serve basis.

Let's discuss Relief Lines, and what XJT MEC is doing. Relief Lines as I said are built by our Crew Planners. Relief lines are built to cover open trips. During the process of building a relief line, Crew Planners are to look at Request submitted by relief line holders. Examples could be, Weekend off, commutable, need 24th off for anniversary....whatever you can think of. This look at requests is to be done in seniority order. However, and pay attention here, that is not always the case. Crew Planners build lines based on open time. They may look at requests, and then apply none of them to someones schedule. Yet, as they move through open time and further down the list, someone junior may get exactly what they want. So there is no seniority protections. Crew Planners build what they want and many times more senior relief line holders get worse lines than junior folks. XJT MEC is aware of this and found a solution......you guessed it a PBS function. XJT MEC and the company have agreed to use PBS software to help HONOR seniority, not take it away, by removing Crew Planners. This will only apply to relief line holders and will not affect the overall way we line bid. What it will do is allow live bidding for a set period of time, that rewards seniority amongst relief line holders, without Company human interaction. Once the window closes, we are back to our old system. How is that bad? This is probably what the OP heard about, in some water downed form, then twisted to meet his reality. I guess this is his form of war. XJT MEC looking at a PBS functional process to see if it works better. Does not apply to ASA, nor is it being forced on them. Apparently XJT wanting to implore due diligence, and not just say okay to everything ASA MEC and the company wants, is war.


Oh, and since a lot of people are all bend on a new system not being tested......this application applies a live test. So this system will see plenty of test every month until we vote. All the kinks will be worked out and company angles discovered. If the pilots do not like it, it can go bye bye. That seems a lot better than an in parallel approach ASA's MEC used before applying a PBS system you are stuck with. Yep, XJT MEC....hiding everything in plan site and telling you about it.

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

Know whats funny? One of our mgmt guys told me and a class of upgrades the reason the ERJ side is growing and the CRJ side is not is due to us being MORE PRODUCTIVE! Our line bidding paired with our work rules is more efficient and productive than your PBS/work rules. That was his cut and dry answer as to why we're growing and you're not. So, by all means keep thinking you're saving the company while we grow and you don't.

I hope we all come out of these negotiations ahead, I won't vote yes any other way. I won't vote yes to anything other than a improvement in QOL, Compensation, retirement etc. If that makes me a "militant XJT pilot" I'm proud to be one. We've got about 3000 of them over here who generally think the same way.

 

[GeekMaster]

Drinksonme,

Your description of your line bidding system is pretty spot on. So let's look at some of the issues.

1. Initial bid: only about half to 60% get a line on the first time out. The rest are subject to a process that even your own MEC acknowledges is nothing short of awful. We'll touch more on that.

2. Line improvement process: if I understand it properly it's a 24 hour free for all. No seniority at all. The guys who log at 12:01am on the bidding day are favored.

3. The remainder of the process falls largely at the mercy of Sir Esteban or whatever his name is. You can put in preferences and he might honor them and he might not. Got vacation? He can goal post it if he wants to. Where's the seniority in that?

SO !! What your MEC decided to do about that jacked up process is explore Smartpref PBS to handle the secondary bidding process. The idea was to expose you guys to the world of PBS on a level where ANYTHING was better than what you were doing.

But there is a missing piece of information that you haven't mentioned in your post. The news leaked out recently on the CRJ side and that's what all this fuss is about. Here is the way i heard it. Seems that the XJT MEC adopted a resolution in which they officially asked the ASA MEC to use their expertise and experience to help them explore and develop work rules for this new PBS system as a PRIMARY bidding system. The ASA guys agreed on the condition that if the system wouldn't work or rules could not be agreed upon, they maintain their current position. (which is flightline). If that's not quite right, maybe some of you guys in the know can shed some light in it for us. Did you know that?

Your MEC is seeking a PBS system as your PRIMARY system ....... An untested globalizing system. We shall talk more about globalizing later. I strongly suggest that every ERJ pilot learn EXACTLY what globalization does. You're going to need that info sooner than you think.

 

[NotTooBad]

This thread is a perfect example of why neither of the existing systems will work. Put yourself in their shoes. You are screwed either way. XJT line bidding remains and the ASA pilots say their MEC caved. ASA PBS remains and the XJT pilots say their MEC caved. Some may say this doesn't matter considering only one MEC will remain in the end.

A new system is the only logical solution politically. I encourage you to call your reps and ask them about globalization. I personally think it is a neat concept. We all understand "bid what you want and want what you bid"....with globalization that may change to "bid EXACTLY what you want and want EXACTLY what you bid". If you are broad with your parameters...then you didn't care in the first place.

 

[GeekMaster]

This thread is a perfect example of why neither of the existing systems will work. Put yourself in their shoes. You are screwed either way. XJT line bidding remains and the ASA pilots say their MEC caved. ASA PBS remains and the XJT pilots say their MEC caved. Some may say this doesn't matter considering only one MEC will remain in the end.

A new system is the only logical solution politically. I encourage you to call your reps and ask them about globalization. I personally think it is a neat concept. We all understand "bid what you want and want what you bid"....with globalization that may change to "bid EXACTLY what you want and want EXACTLY what you bid". If you are broad with your parameters...then you didn't care in the first place.

You clearly don't have a true handle on globalization. Globalization says that a senior pilot can bid exactly what he wants right down to a specific trip. Then, the system can take that trip away from that senior pilot and give it to a junior pilot in order to make the overall bid run work better. "sacrifice one for the greater good" concept. So say you're a commuter from OKC and you pick out a trip that has a long OKC overnight. How are you going to feel when the system gives your trip to a more junior pilot?

 

[Clutch]

So, as an ASA pilot, I have to ask... when does this "war" on the XJT MEC start, cuz there's nothing on TV...?

 

[79%N1]

I will paper bid before I vote on anything with "Globalization". Sounds like something Obama cooked up.

 

[No Delay]

How do you get "in the know"? I never hear anything

 

[dojetdriver]

First off, this information is available to ALL pilots that can access ALPA. It's just FACTUAL information. Or you can contact your reps and get the FACTUAL information. Not like it matter, morons like the OP would rather just spew ignorant information, or just simply not read the information presented to them. And for the ERJ side of the house that seems to think they know EVERYTHING there is to know about globalization, well, maybe you don't know all that much sometimes;

Vendor: Flightline (a subsidiary of Sabre Airline Solutions)
Program: PrefBid (A product of Flightline)
Currently in use at: ASA, Republic, GoJet, Virgin America, and AirTran
Source of Research:
• Meeting with the Flightline development team
• Discussions and interactions with the ASA PWG
• In-depth evaluation of program using ExpressJet schedule and pairing data
Basic Description:
Flightline is a non-globalized system. Pilots input their preferences, and the person who is running the builder can sort pairings within those preferences to create better results for the entire solution. Because the system is non-globalized and considers only each pilot individually, fast run times can allow many runs to be done with different sorting to obtain the best possible results.
Analysis:
Flightline has a number of issues that would make it difficult to implement for the pilots of ExpressJet. Some of those issues are:
• Inability to create viable solution in challenging months
• Necessity to "game the system" to maximize days off
• Pre-assigned events result in "lucky lineholders/unlucky reserves"
• Excessive amount of time, resources, and manual work to complete bid runs by both the union and the company
Explanation:
A dichotomy exists in our pilot group; there are some pilots that want the maximum time off possible (including those with vacation), and those who want or need to maximize their hours. In addition, because there is such a wide variety in the pairings at the regional level (4 days ranging from 28 hours to 10 hours of credit, etc.) it can be difficult to build schedules conforming to a narrow credit window. Therefore it is necessary for the PBS to have a wide range of acceptable credit times. The ASA pilot group has negotiated that the acceptable credit
window will be no less than 30 hours. The use of the "vacation low" function further expands the bottom of the credit window.
The wide credit window, coupled with the non-globalization creates a difficult problem. Because the system only looks at each bidder individually and not the overall solution, there is no way to make adjustments in the middle of the seniority list during a bid run; crew members at all seniority levels receive equal treatment. In a high flying month, this means that rather than senior bidders having the option to fly a lower time schedule, everyone is forced into a high credit line except those with vacation. The 30 hour credit window is meaningless when the bottom of the window is set at 90 hours. The system as implemented at ASA preserves time off for vacation, at everyone else’s expense.
Another undesirable aspect of the Flightline system is the need to "Game the System" to get extra days off. The Flightline system is fundamentally a pairing sorter, and at the risk of oversimplifying, assumes that pilots want to work. There is no way for a pilot to tell the Flightline system that they would like no less than 15 days off. They would instead have to bid only the pairings that when combined will give 15 days off. The pilot must foresee not only how those pairings will combine, but also what will be available at their seniority to have success. This problem is particularly accentuated for bidders seeking day trips, and even more so during vacation months. This also results in additional days off being awarded not in seniority order, but by those who "gamed the system" best.
Additional seniority issues exist within the Flightline system. As the program approaches the junior lineholders, there are fewer trips to work with. At times, because of a vacation, training event, or other leave, it will be impossible to combine those trips and "pre-assigned credits" into a legal line, so that bidder will be forced into reserve. Conversely, a bidder with the same event at a different time during the month may be awarded a line, even though numerous senior bidders were forced to reserve. This creates the concept of "lucky lineholders/unlucky reserves", which directly violates seniority.
Finally, one of the aspects that Sabre touts in the Flightline product is that fast run times allow the company and the union to be able to rerun the bid to get better results. In practice, however, run times have been long enough that multiple people have been using multiple computers in an attempt to create additional bid runs before lines are due to be awarded. The ASA PWG has reported, and this committee has observed some run times in excess of 7 hours, severely limiting the opportunity to create additional bid runs.
Additionally, the committee believes the rebuild process is fundamentally flawed. In between bid runs, nothing changes. There is the same flying, the same number of pilots, the same pilot requests. When you put all of those variables together, there is a single solution which best meets as many of those requests as possible. The Flightline process counts on the company or the union trying to find that ideal solution. In each bid run, some requests are better met than others. The committee’s preference would be to use an award logic that best meets as many
requests as possible, a single optimum solution instead of one that meets the goals of the person running the software.
The software, logic, and seniority issues inherent with the Flightline PBS are not likely to be surmountable. Although the Flightline development team worked with the ASA PWG to create a system that worked for their pilots and contained significant improvements over their previous scheduling arrangement, the committee does not feel that it would be possible to repeat those gains or even maintain the current quality of life for the ExpressJet pilot group with this software.

 

[dojetdriver]

2. Line improvement process: if I understand it properly it's a 24 hour free for all. No seniority at all. The guys who log at 12:01am on the bidding day are favored.

Look at the post I made concerning the ASA PBS system. Does it honor seniority? If you can say "yes it does, 100% of the time without exceptions", I'd like to see how it does.

Otherwise the point your making above isn't relevant at all.

 

[GeekMaster]

Look at the post I made concerning the ASA PBS system. Does it honor seniority? If you can say "yes it does, 100% of the time without exceptions", I'd like to see how it does.

Otherwise the point your making above isn't relevant at all.

Yes flightline honors seniority 100% of the time without exception. The event that the XJT scheduling committee refers to is the high TLVs or line values. It is their contention that seniority is not honored by making senior guys fly higher credit so that junior guys can have longer vacations.

It is ASA's contention that the true fix to that problem isn't to trash the system but instead gain more control over the bottom of the window.

 

[Dannone]

Why am I learning more on this website than I am hearing from the ASA MEC or management for that matter? It took Joe merchant to start another thread to get this conversation started? Actually one of the more intelligent threads I have seen for the most part, no thanks to the title. Why can't management communicate better? As far as the ASA MEC has anyone heard form any of the leadership on the ASA side beside the standard e-mails which say nothing? Time we start getting factual info to both groups before things get too out of hand. Ya know, it is not us v them, or lifers v those moving on either. I still consider myself a guy moving on but, after 12 years I have not been able to. Who knows if I will be able to or not? I would like to have some sort of life if I do stay. We need LEADERSHIP!!!! It starts with communication, simple enough. No way we can compete with the bottom feeders unless we can take advantage of economies of scale and we can't do that as well by being separate!!

 

[ace6453]

Yes flightline honors seniority 100% of the time without exception. The event that the XJT scheduling committee refers to is the high TLVs or line values. It is their contention that seniority is not honored by making senior guys fly higher credit so that junior guys can have longer vacations.

It is ASA's contention that the true fix to that problem isn't to trash the system but instead gain more control over the bottom of the window.

No it doesn't. It does at the top but as you approach the bottom of the list people without vacation may not be able to complete a schedule, while the bottom person may have vacation with AQP and only need 1 trip and they are awarded a line. Not saying I disagree with letting the poor reserve guy get lots of days off one month of the year, (instead of the BS vacation on reserve, what a joke) but to say it honors seniority 100% of the time is a complete lie.

 

[Freebrd]

How do you get "in the know"? I never hear anything

why you just log onto flight info and get yourself "in the know",you know

 

[dojetdriver]

Yes flightline honors seniority 100% of the time without exception. The event that the XJT scheduling committee refers to is the high TLVs or line values. It is their contention that seniority is not honored by making senior guys fly higher credit so that junior guys can have longer vacations.

OK, here you're saying that it DOES honor seniority 100%.

It is ASA's contention that the true fix to that problem isn't to trash the system but instead gain more control over the bottom of the window.

Here you're saying a problem exists, ASA knows about it, and it needs to be fixed somehow.

So which is it?