XJT MEC declares war on ASA pilots.

[GeekMaster]

Help me out here, because your argument is slightly off. You said it honors seniority, yet has the flaw. The ASA pilots here (and elsewhere), the ones I talk to, and the XJT committee say it doesn't honor seniority 100% of the time. All systems are flawed, it's about finding the system with the LEAST flaws, as well as at a minimum keeps the current XJT workrules intact. Because as it stands, the current PBS system does NOT do that. It's a square peg in a round hole. The problem is it may require so much parameter change that it may not even be possible to preserve current XJT work rules. Which at the end of the day means a concession.



Thanks for the explanation. Yet here, other places, the XJT analysis, as well as the ASA pilots I talk to say that seniority is NOT honored. Massive flaw. When you say that any other product besides flightline can't be used, have you specifically researched the others, and their capabilities? The MEC has done theirs, and knows the flaws of what they've looked at.

As far as the "learning curve goes", imagine the one the majority of the combined list will face IF the current system is the prevailing, as well as the concession taken.

Ok there is still a lack of understanding the definition of globalization.

Globalization- A practice used in some PBS systems wherein a trip or pairing that has been requested by a senior pilot is denied and awarded to a junior pilot for the purpose of improving the overall award solution. That's it! Nothing else!

High line thresholds are not globalization. Unstacking is not globalization.

That established, Flightline will never take a pairing away from a senior pilot to complete a junior pilot's schedule.

Looking beyond the software itself, there are some work rules that must be established regardless of which PBS system. One is some sort of staffing formula. Currently Asa doesn't have it and THAT is the reason for the high line values that your scheduling committee touts as "not honoring seniority". That staffing formula must be set with either system. So why trade in the Ferrari for a Taurus because the spark plug wire is bad?

As for unstacking; even that unpleasant practice honors seniority. It's done in reverse seniority order AND pilots get to put in an unstacking preference. All systems will unstack, even Smartpref.

 

[flyr]

Ok there is still a lack of understanding the definition of globalization.

Globalization- A practice used in some PBS systems wherein a trip or pairing that has been requested by a senior pilot is denied and awarded to a junior pilot for the purpose of improving the overall award solution. That's it! Nothing else!

High line thresholds are not globalization. Unstacking is not globalization.

That established, Flightline will never take a pairing away from a senior pilot to complete a junior pilot's schedule.

Looking beyond the software itself, there are some work rules that must be established regardless of which PBS system. One is some sort of staffing formula. Currently Asa doesn't have it and THAT is the reason for the high line values that your scheduling committee touts as "not honoring seniority". That staffing formula must be set with either system. So why trade in the Ferrari for a Taurus because the spark plug wire is bad?

As for unstacking; even that unpleasant practice honors seniority. It's done in reverse seniority order AND pilots get to put in an unstacking preference. All systems will unstack, even Smartpref.

Are you one of the PBS guys at ASA? I've been reading some of these posts and you seem to be very knowledgable about this whole thing. It's far more helpful than some of the banter going on. Thanks

 

[GeekMaster]

Since most everyone else seems to be coming around on globalization and how it harms pilots' quality of life without honoring seniority, I'm going to move to a different subject.

In flightline, pilots are allowed to enter up to 3 bid sheets. Most any pilot currently using flightline will be able to tell you how much of an advantage that is.

Let's say you like to start your trips on Monday. Sometimes you can hold it but sometimes you can't. With flightline, you can build your dream schedule with just the trips you want with Monday starts, THEN if the system can't award your schedule, it will simply toss it all out and move to your second bid sheet. There on your second bid sheet, you've built your second dream schedule of Tuesday starts. Etc. the possibilities are endless. If your goal is to fly as little as possible, you can even use multiple bid sheets to accomplish that. Any Asa pilot or trainer can show you that trick.

With Smartpref, you can only have one bid sheet on record. Furthermore all pairings are ranked in order all the way through. A big problem with this is that being awarded a higher choice pairing can actually screw you out of being awarded a lower choice pairing. That's more of a big deal for guys who don't care what trip they fly as long as it has xx days off. In flightline, those pilots can simply group all those pairings together as a single preference.

It's really not a complicated system to operate. 1700+ pilots do it every month and are overwhelmingly elated with the results.

Why do you think such an overwhelming majority of Asa like this system so much? I'll give you a hint; it's not because they have a life mission to ruin Xjt pilot's life.

 

[GeekMaster]

Are you one of the PBS guys at ASA? I've been reading some of these posts and you seem to be very knowledgable about this whole thing. It's far more helpful than some of the banter going on. Thanks

I am a line pilot. I just happen to be a line pilot who cares very deeply about maintaining my job. Therefore, I took the time to learn my contract, learn my PBS system and now upon hearing about this new system, I took the time to study it too.

 

[Thebadcat1313]

Are you one of the PBS guys at ASA? I've been reading some of these posts and you seem to be very knowledgable about this whole thing. It's far more helpful than some of the banter going on. Thanks

+1. I agree... Geekmaster, sweptback, dojetdriver thank you for the ongoing dialogue. Very good stuff.

 

[Leroy Smith]

ERJ folks,

Research the PBS all you want, advocate for whatever system you think is best, but do not think for a second that will be the end of the story. ASA's PBS works good for the most part. But as several have said----- there are several other factors that are the cause of the sucking. Low staffing model. Moving target TLV. Jacked-up, late-arriving schedules from Delta. Really short stages (you try getting your credit up when the average is 1.1hr per leg). Take your pick. Maybe your line bidding and work rules would fix some of the stuff that ails us, maybe a new PBS system would. But watch your back, because our Mainline bosses and SureJet's crackerjack management seem to be very adept at creating lots of new unknown-unknown BOHICAs.

Spend your negotiating capital to build a Maginot Line and you had better make sure you have your flank is covered......

--------------------------------------------------------------
"My mind is aglow with whirling, trasncient nodes of thought,
careening through a cosmic vapor of invention"

 

[Clutch]

Getting trip rigs is more important than how we bid... The pairings will be awful no matter if it's pbs or line bidding unless we address that issue first.

 

[Raoul Duke]

pbs will just construct pairings around any rigs, not worth the time to get them.

 

[dojetdriver]

pbs will just construct pairings around any rigs, not worth the time to get them.

Pairing generator, well, it generates pairings.

The PBS takes the pairings and awards the lines.

The two are independent of each other. For December, IIRC, the XJT pairing generator was used for the first time. Which had various solutions run, to include more productive pairings than previous. As well as higher day oof lines than before. Just ask JoeMerchant and 777forever, they'll tell you "Thanks for your pairing generator XJT".

Prior to that, the ASA pairing generator was used. Yet it was STILL the PBS system that awarded the lines.

Why do you think such an overwhelming majority of Asa like this system so much? I'll give you a hint; it's not because they have a life mission to ruin Xjt pilot's life.

You have to remember, the reason PBS is liked so much is because the ASA line bid system sucked. It WASN'T XJT's line bid system they're NOT the same thing. The ignorant/uneducated seem to think so, not the case.

I'm getting blue in the face here, ASA PBS for XJT pilots = concession = suck. That's just a fact, can't spin it.

 

[No Delay]

maybe. another angle is that we will never have control over how the company builds the pairings...so we need to at least control how we are paid for them. even more so with the new rest rules around the corner. 5 hour min day and increase in min days off should be at the top of our list.

 

[GeekMaster]

Pairing generator, well, it generates pairings.

The PBS takes the pairings and awards the lines.

The two are independent of each other. For December, IIRC, the XJT pairing generator was used for the first time. Which had various solutions run, to include more productive pairings than previous. As well as higher day oof lines than before. Just ask JoeMerchant and 777forever, they'll tell you "Thanks for your pairing generator XJT".

Prior to that, the ASA pairing generator was used. Yet it was STILL the PBS system that awarded the lines.



You have to remember, the reason PBS is liked so much is because the ASA line bid system sucked. It WASN'T XJT's line bid system they're NOT the same thing. The ignorant/uneducated seem to think so, not the case.

I'm getting blue in the face here, ASA PBS for XJT pilots = concession = suck. That's just a fact, can't spin it.

I'm sorry you're getting blue in the face but there is something very valuable you're not considering here. This I no longer a comparison between flightline and your line bidding system. Your MEC is now trying to develop rules for PBS as a primary bidding system. So NOW this becomes a comparison between flightline and Smartpref.

Asa is not trying to spin THAT. I just want to make sure my MEC and all the pilots from both airlines don't trade in a great PBS system for one that doesn't work as well.

 

[BoilerUP]

So, exactly how is XJT's union leadership exploring a new PBS system "declaring war on ASA pilots" again?

 

[outtahere]

Not true. I haven't been here for 7 years and I held 3 on 4 of trips with weekends off commutable for about 2 years before I upgraded. They are gone now because of pbs but under line bidding I got them every month. The line might have only credited 60-70 hours but that wasn't my problem now it is because you can't complete a line that low. Not everyone wants 90 hours a month.

Thats incorrect!! I have been here eight years and I held three on four off until Scott Hall came along and decided that three days weren't efficient. Don't revise history because you are to ignorant to use PBS effectively. I love PBS and I'm middle of the pack in IAD. If you're junior it sucks!! Doesn't matter if its PBS, line bidding, or a gang bang, you get the left overs.

 

[sweptback]

pbs will just construct pairings around any rigs, not worth the time to get them.

Of course it does, that's the point.

In a perfect world the rigs would never kick in, because the pairings have been built efficiently. All you're doing by negotiating any sort of rig is giving the company a financial penalty if they can't build efficient schedules.

 

[dojetdriver]

Your MEC is now trying to develop rules for PBS as a primary bidding system. So NOW this becomes a comparison between flightline and Smartpref.

You say you're just line pilot. Do you have ACTUAL first hand proof that that is what's going on? Do you know for a FACT that it goes beyond just the research that the XJT PBS research committee did? Or is it justs "I heard from a guy that's in the know" that you're basing all this on? Did you talk to somebody that breached the confidentiality agreement and caused all this crap that the OP started in the FIRST place?

Asa is not trying to spin THAT. I just want to make sure my MEC and all the pilots from both airlines don't trade in a great PBS system for one that doesn't work as well.

Fair enough. ASA may not be trying to spin it. But there doesn't seem to be a shortage of guys that are buying into something, like, oh, I don't know, maybe JoeMerchant says? As well as all the ignorants that take his word as factual.

 

[GeekMaster]

You say you're just line pilot. Do you have ACTUAL first hand proof that that is what's going on? Do you know for a FACT that it goes beyond just the research that the XJT PBS research committee did? Or is it justs "I heard from a guy that's in the know" that you're basing all this on? Did you talk to somebody that breached the confidentiality agreement and caused all this crap that the OP started in the FIRST place?



Fair enough. ASA may not be trying to spin it. But there doesn't seem to be a shortage of guys that are buying into something, like, oh, I don't know, maybe JoeMerchant says? As well as all the ignorants that take his word as factual.

I do KNOW the info I've been given to be factual. Not going to "out" the multiple names. Don't need to. MckPickle is free to come one anytime and say it's not true. But he won't because it is true. Again, I do know as fact the Xjt resoluution regarding smartpref is true.

 

[Nevets]

Hey JoeMerchant and and select ASA pilots, you guys need to get on board. Globalization? Of course we want globalization! You guys need to play the game and help us maintain cost competitiveness. Once you realize that we don't have brand scope, we must all concede in order to succeed!

 

[JumpersAway]

Hey JoeMerchant and and select ASA pilots, you guys need to get on board. Globalization? Of course we want globalization! You guys need to play the game and help us maintain cost competitiveness. Once you realize that we don't have brand scope, we must all concede in order to succeed!

What EXACTLY is it you wish to accomplish here? What do you think is fair to negotiate? I'm curious how you think this business model works, and what your expectations are if we break the company and this business model.... Please elaborate.

 

[79%N1]

He is poking the bear and being facetious....

 

[dojetdriver]

What EXACTLY is it you wish to accomplish here? What do you think is fair to negotiate? I'm curious how you think this business model works, and what your expectations are if we break the company and this business model.... Please elaborate.

Either you don't know what sarcasm is, don't read JM's postings here or elsewhere, or are just plain "clueless". As your original/pre-edit post said that Nevets was.