XJT MEC declares war on ASA pilots.

[sweptback]

For those XJT scheduling types, what is inherently wrong with the Flightline PrefBid engine that could not be fixed with better work rules?

Why is this Crewing Solutions product so much better (besides globalization, which is honestly not an improvement), and why are no other airlines using the product? It's not a new product either, so why is everybody in the market for PBS looking at it and passing on it?

From where I stand, the ASA pilots have over a year of experience with the PrefBid product. That's a lot of collective experience to throw away and switch to a new system that may or may not be better. Right now, we know what is wrong with PrefBid and we know how to fix it. That cannot be said about another vendor's product.

 

[79%N1]

Maybe it is better. Let's hear about it.

 

[crazy8]

For those XJT scheduling types, what is inherently wrong with the Flightline PrefBid engine that could not be fixed with better work rules?

Why is this Crewing Solutions product so much better (besides globalization, which is honestly not an improvement), and why are no other airlines using the product? It's not a new product either, so why is everybody in the market for PBS looking at it and passing on it?

From where I stand, the ASA pilots have over a year of experience with the PrefBid product. That's a lot of collective experience to throw away and switch to a new system that may or may not be better. Right now, we know what is wrong with PrefBid and we know how to fix it. That cannot be said about another vendor's product.

The problem with PrefBid is that the problems are known...you may know how to fix it.... but the system is inherently incapable of fixing those problems. Clear as mud?

 

[JoeMerchant]

You XJT guys are missing the point. This isn't about PBS vs. Line Bidding. The XJT MEC has abandoned your precious line bidding and is now pushing a different type of PBS...one that doesn't honor seniority and one that no other airline uses. Hasn't your MEC shared this info. with you? If not, why not?

 

[crazy8]

You XJT guys are missing the point. This isn't about PBS vs. Line Bidding. The XJT MEC has abandoned your precious line bidding and is now pushing a different type of PBS...one that doesn't honor seniority and one that no other airline uses. Hasn't your MEC shared this info. with you? If not, why not?

Nothing has been abandoned. We're still line bidding (and will continue to do so until it is VOTED on)....and....YES, they HAVE shared the fact that it isn't used by anyone else (because it's new and there has to be a first to use it, no?). Joe, in your ever so awesome wisdom, explain to us how it will violate seniority. Explain how it violates seniority more than your current system, which does so on a monthly basis.

 

[pilotnbr1]

After looking at SmartPref the concept is interesting as far as possibly viewing your line as you modify your options. But I don't think it will work as intended.
The system builds your possible future line based on the selections of those senior to you. So if people senior to you change anything it will have a snowball effect down the seniority list. If it was me bidding in that system I would be going in at the last possible minute before bid close to get a schedule that I want. With everyone trying to game the system like the last few minute of an ebay bid it negates the main supposed advantage of SmartPref... I just don't see the continuous line building aspect working as advertised unless I missed something.

I have seen the information the ExpressJet scheduling committee put out regarding all of the different PBS systems available. It appears they did their homework and have a decent understanding of the Flightline PBS system. It has it's pros and cons just like any system. Currently its far better in my opinion than ASA's old line bidding but I am not convinced it is better than Expressjet's version of bidding lines. I need more of an education on the pros and cons of Expressjet's system in order to make an informed vote...

I have to say that I am impressed by the amount of information the ExpressJet MEC seems to convey to the pilot group. The email sent out comparing all 10 to 15 PBS systems was easy to read and comprehensive. I am tired of the lack of information passed on by the ASA MEC. Show me what I am paying 2% of my paycheck for. Sometimes I think the years of micromanaging egocentric management style of the old ASA has rubbed off on our MEC. Pass the information to the pilot group and let us have more input. Seems like to little transparency and closed door politics which fuels the rumor mill and threads like these.

 

[GeekMaster]

Nothing has been abandoned. We're still line bidding (and will continue to do so until it is VOTED on)....and....YES, they HAVE shared the fact that it isn't used by anyone else (because it's new and there has to be a first to use it, no?). Joe, in your ever so awesome wisdom, explain to us how it will violate seniority. Explain how it violates seniority more than your current system, which does so on a monthly basis.

You have preached repeatedly that Prefbid does not honor seniority and Smartpref will. Your argument is that Prefbid socializes by making senior pilots fly more hours in order to cover junior pilots' vacation. Our MEC has acknowledged that this was indeed an issue and something they had already been working on before this merger occurred.

Here's the flaw in your logic: The reason for that socialization isn't in the software or its award logic. It's in the lack of staffing and control of the bottom of the window. At XJT you had a line divisor to take care of that. Your line divisor acted as a pseudo staffing formula, therefore allowing adequate low credit lines for the senior guys who didn't want to fly.

Our MEC has pointed out to you repeatedly that fixes for this could be negotiated to gain more control of the bottom of the window. Further, improvement would be realized through converting to Adopts. As the conversion takes place it has improved the problem.

Also, XJT controls its summer staffing problems by not allowing pilots to take summer vacations. ASA distributed vacations evenly throughout the year. XJT does an uneven allotment by making lots of vacation available in off months like September and February and very few available during the summer. THIS PRACTICE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHICH PBS SYSTEM IS USED !!!

Now to Smartpref. You keep talking about how important it is to senority and yet you are pushing this untested system that GLOBALIZES and only allows one bid sheet. Every single scheduling chairman at every single airline that uses PBS will tell you the exact same thing. GLOBALIZATION DOES NOT HONOR SENIORITY !!!! And yet you've somehow come to the conclusion that this new untested globalizing system is going to fix the world.

How's it working out for you in you test runs so far? Figured out how to make it award a nap schedule yet? You haven't even begun to find out all the challenges to make this software function at a level that YOUR pilots will demand to preserve their quality of life. There's already a system in place doing it. Why not modify that one instead of reinventing the wheel...... unless of course there's something else in it for you.. just sayin'.

 

[Data]

I said it back when ASA voted for PBS that it was much better to accept PBS in a side agreement than it was to roll it into a new contract. The reason? We could use the next contract to clean up the language and short-comings of PBS after using for a while. Which is exactly where we are now. The XJet MEC perhaps wants to take an unknown, untested system and roll it into the new contract, great, but what happens with the issues that will arise in the new solution (and there will be issues)? What opportunity will we have to correct them? I'll tell you, none. There are shortcomings in ASA's current PBS system but it will be far far easier to correct these than it will be to roll out a completely new system. Let's take advantage of the joint contract to hammer out some solid improvements to the existing solution.

One other point I'd make too, there are vast differences between the route planning that Delta provides versus the route planning that United/Continental provides. We're not exactly comparing apples to apples. The ASA side is at a disadvantage because of the way Delta provides our schedule. I think the XJet guys hear how bad our system is and think that it is because of our PBS. It's the schedules and the company generated pairings that cause a majority of the problems in our system (ie city pairs with overnights every 3rd night, multiple DCI carriers serving the same city on different nights). It seems that United/Continental provide more notice of the schedule and fewer interruptions than Delta which leads to a better quality pairing selection and an earlier bid cycle. None of this is impacted by PBS, it's simply a function of how each mainline partner handles the connection carriers. XJet accepting ASA's PBS does not mean they're going to be forced into our timeline (ie lines not out until the 20th etc). Our time constraints come from getting Delta's schedule later in the month that XJet's. PBS simply allows you a better method of selecting your pairings. Let's take a known quantity (ASA's PBS) and fix its problems and move forward with this. But please, don't make the mistake of accepting a new solution in a new contract, I guarantee there will be problems down the road with it and we will not have the opportunity to fix them unless it's in the company's best interest.

Just my uninformed two cents!

 

[crazy8]

You have preached repeatedly that Prefbid does not honor seniority and Smartpref will. Your argument is that Prefbid socializes by making senior pilots fly more hours in order to cover junior pilots' vacation. Our MEC has acknowledged that this was indeed an issue and something they had already been working on before this merger occurred.

Here's the flaw in your logic: The reason for that socialization isn't in the software or its award logic. It's in the lack of staffing and control of the bottom of the window. At XJT you had a line divisor to take care of that. Your line divisor acted as a pseudo staffing formula, therefore allowing adequate low credit lines for the senior guys who didn't want to fly.

Our MEC has pointed out to you repeatedly that fixes for this could be negotiated to gain more control of the bottom of the window. Further, improvement would be realized through converting to Adopts. As the conversion takes place it has improved the problem.

Also, XJT controls its summer staffing problems by not allowing pilots to take summer vacations. ASA distributed vacations evenly throughout the year. XJT does an uneven allotment by making lots of vacation available in off months like September and February and very few available during the summer. THIS PRACTICE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHICH PBS SYSTEM IS USED !!!

Now to Smartpref. You keep talking about how important it is to senority and yet you are pushing this untested system that GLOBALIZES and only allows one bid sheet. Every single scheduling chairman at every single airline that uses PBS will tell you the exact same thing. GLOBALIZATION DOES NOT HONOR SENIORITY !!!! And yet you've somehow come to the conclusion that this new untested globalizing system is going to fix the world.

How's it working out for you in you test runs so far? Figured out how to make it award a nap schedule yet? You haven't even begun to find out all the challenges to make this software function at a level that YOUR pilots will demand to preserve their quality of life. There's already a system in place doing it. Why not modify that one instead of reinventing the wheel...... unless of course there's something else in it for you.. just sayin'.

That's a fair argument....and no there is absolutely nothing in this for me.

Frankly, this whole PBS thing turns my stomach. It's a major concession for us. I would much rather keep the line bidding we have on the ERJ side. I just don't want to be caught with a crappy system if the combined pilot group votes in something other than line bidding.

 

[Texx]

And, once again, the reason I very infrequently peruse these boards.....

It has been awhile?

 

[PooPooPants]

How's it working out for you in you test runs so far? Figured out how to make it award a nap schedule yet? You haven't even begun to find out all the challenges to make this software function at a level that YOUR pilots will demand to preserve their quality of life. There's already a system in place doing it. Why not modify that one instead of reinventing the wheel...... unless of course there's something else in it for you.. just sayin'.[/QUOTE]

Don't let the test runs fool you like they did me. When ASA did the testing, the bottom of the window was always set to 75hrs. I got 18 days off on all runs and was very impressed. Shortly after PBS was implemented the bottom of the window was typically set somewhere between 80-89 hours and guess what, all those 18 day off schedules went away.

 

[dojetdriver]

It's also critical to remember that even though the vendor might be the same, the final software used is also very much tailored to the contract/work rules associated with it. Right?

Well, yeah. For just about ANY software it's simply a matter of arranging the 1's and 0's to suit the needs of the customer. Assuming the software is a decent package of course.

From where I stand, the ASA pilots have over a year of experience with the PrefBid product. That's a lot of collective experience to throw away and switch to a new system that may or may not be better. Right now, we know what is wrong with PrefBid and we know how to fix it. That cannot be said about another vendor's product.

True. And the XJT side has well over a decade of experience using a system that ALREADY works. So far, the vacation low feature is about the ONLY thing that's comparable. Sorry, the rest of the workrules that govern the PBS don't match the ones that govern the line bid. And before any ignorant/uniformed types want to spout off, the XJT line bid is NOT what ASA had.

But I don't think it will work as intended.
The system builds your possible future line based on the selections of those senior to you. So if people senior to you change anything it will have a snowball effect down the seniority list. If it was me bidding in that system I would be going in at the last possible minute before bid close to get a schedule that I want. With everyone trying to game the system like the last few minute of an ebay bid it negates the main supposed advantage of SmartPref... I just don't see the continuous line building aspect working as advertised unless I missed something.

Are you sure that the system can't accept a standing bid? Or rather, one that simply goes down the line of your preferences? Have you read the full report?

I have seen the information the ExpressJet scheduling committee put out regarding all of the different PBS systems available. It appears they did their homework and have a decent understanding of the Flightline PBS system. It has it's pros and cons just like any system. Currently its far better in my opinion than ASA's old line bidding but I am not convinced it is better than Expressjet's version of bidding lines. I need more of an education on the pros and cons of Expressjet's system in order to make an informed vote...

That may be true that it's not better than the current line bid system. But who the hell says it's going to be used. The committee is doing research. The research is a contingency plan that IF PBS does get shoved down our throats, the research is done and they know which system they're going to want. As opposed to inheriting the inferior ASA software. etc.

 

[GeekMaster]

That's a fair argument....and no there is absolutely nothing in this for me.

Frankly, this whole PBS thing turns my stomach. It's a major concession for us. I would much rather keep the line bidding we have on the ERJ side. I just don't want to be caught with a crappy system if the combined pilot group votes in something other than line bidding.

I completely respect not wanting to be caught with a crappy system. That's why research must be done. Which brings up the next point: When the XJT MEC presented this resolution to the ASA MEC to explore and research the new system, was the intent not genuine? Did they do so thinking the ASA guys would turn it down? I know those guys very well. EVERYONE OF THEM is fully knowledgeable about PBS. One of my reps told me that in contrast, many of your reps have clearly stated "they don't have time to research all this stuff and that's why they trust it to their scheduling chairman".

So do you think that if your scheduling committee begins to see that Smartpref is literally 1-2 years from being ready and the company says it can't wait that long and wants to modify Flightline, that your MEC will embrace exploring Flightline the same way ASA embraced exploring Smartpref?

 

[GeekMaster]

It has been awhile?

Lil' bit. But I think this one's pretty important.

 

[GeekMaster]

" Don't let the test runs fool you like they did me. When ASA did the testing, the bottom of the window was always set to 75hrs. I got 18 days off on all runs and was very impressed. Shortly after PBS was implemented the bottom of the window was typically set somewhere between 80-89 hours and guess what, all those 18 day off schedules went away."

The company is very open about its desire to "do more with less". One modification that is necessary on any PBS system is some form of staffing control. XJT has that with their line divisor. Any future PBS system is going to need it on our part; probably in the form of more control over the bottom of the window.

 

[drinksonme]

The back on forth on this issue is amazing. I am just gonna put this out there, as someone who is NOT in the know, and does not find pleasure in trying to divide our groups as to protect only their own a$$ and way of life. The OP's continued spouting of garbage is sad. Though he may think that he is in the know, I personally believe he knows someone in the know, and then warps what he hears to fit his preception of the little know facts that he gets. XJT APLA is not trying to hide anything on this issue. They worked hard, as it is required by an LOA in our contract, to look at PBS systems. They made all that information available to the pilots and even would do live demos with individual pilots to see how the systems worked. This included ASA's current system. When I asked a rep what ASA MEC has done like this with our system, or with other PBS systems....answer is they have done nothing.

Now lets get into the whole rewarding out of seniority order system and untested system stuff. For those of you that are not aware, XJT line bidding has 2 phases. 1st phase is to award pre-built lines by our system. Every pilot can bid this phase, regardless if your seniority holds a line or not. After it closes, pilot who bid and held a line get their line for next month. This usually happens within the first 8 days. So how bout that.....line holders at XJT know their next months schedule up 20 days prior. Then we have the Initial Line Improvement Window or ILIW, which is open for 24 hours on a set date, normally in the middle of the month. For those 24 hours, pilots who held lines may go into Sked+ and pick up, trade, drop, etc...trips to personalize their schedules. This is first come first serve, so seniority is not taken into account. After that concludes, and within a few days, the Secondary Bid window opens. This bid is for pilots who did not hold a line, and consists of Relief Lines (Crew Planning built schedules to cover open time) and Reserve Lines. Again, you hold what your seniority can hold. The relief lines are the wild card. The trips are unknown and, after the bid closes, are added to a relief line pilots schedule by Crew Planning. Crew Planning is to look at Requests of Relief Line pilots prior to building a line in seniority order. This is where the problem is and I will discuss later as it relates to "delcaring war on ASA pilots." Once all relief lines are built and set, the Secondary Line Improvement Window opens for the entire bid month, and all pilots, except Reserve, may trade, drop, pick up, etc...to improve their schedules. Again based on a first come first serve basis.

Let's discuss Relief Lines, and what XJT MEC is doing. Relief Lines as I said are built by our Crew Planners. Relief lines are built to cover open trips. During the process of building a relief line, Crew Planners are to look at Request submitted by relief line holders. Examples could be, Weekend off, commutable, need 24th off for anniversary....whatever you can think of. This look at requests is to be done in seniority order. However, and pay attention here, that is not always the case. Crew Planners build lines based on open time. They may look at requests, and then apply none of them to someones schedule. Yet, as they move through open time and further down the list, someone junior may get exactly what they want. So there is no seniority protections. Crew Planners build what they want and many times more senior relief line holders get worse lines than junior folks. XJT MEC is aware of this and found a solution......you guessed it a PBS function. XJT MEC and the company have agreed to use PBS software to help HONOR seniority, not take it away, by removing Crew Planners. This will only apply to relief line holders and will not affect the overall way we line bid. What it will do is allow live bidding for a set period of time, that rewards seniority amongst relief line holders, without Company human interaction. Once the window closes, we are back to our old system. How is that bad? This is probably what the OP heard about, in some water downed form, then twisted to meet his reality. I guess this is his form of war. XJT MEC looking at a PBS functional process to see if it works better. Does not apply to ASA, nor is it being forced on them. Apparently XJT wanting to implore due diligence, and not just say okay to everything ASA MEC and the company wants, is war.


Oh, and since a lot of people are all bend on a new system not being tested......this application applies a live test. So this system will see plenty of test every month until we vote. All the kinks will be worked out and company angles discovered. If the pilots do not like it, it can go bye bye. That seems a lot better than an in parallel approach ASA's MEC used before applying a PBS system you are stuck with. Yep, XJT MEC....hiding everything in plan site and telling you about it.

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

Know whats funny? One of our mgmt guys told me and a class of upgrades the reason the ERJ side is growing and the CRJ side is not is due to us being MORE PRODUCTIVE! Our line bidding paired with our work rules is more efficient and productive than your PBS/work rules. That was his cut and dry answer as to why we're growing and you're not. So, by all means keep thinking you're saving the company while we grow and you don't.

I hope we all come out of these negotiations ahead, I won't vote yes any other way. I won't vote yes to anything other than a improvement in QOL, Compensation, retirement etc. If that makes me a "militant XJT pilot" I'm proud to be one. We've got about 3000 of them over here who generally think the same way.

 

[GeekMaster]

Drinksonme,

Your description of your line bidding system is pretty spot on. So let's look at some of the issues.

1. Initial bid: only about half to 60% get a line on the first time out. The rest are subject to a process that even your own MEC acknowledges is nothing short of awful. We'll touch more on that.

2. Line improvement process: if I understand it properly it's a 24 hour free for all. No seniority at all. The guys who log at 12:01am on the bidding day are favored.

3. The remainder of the process falls largely at the mercy of Sir Esteban or whatever his name is. You can put in preferences and he might honor them and he might not. Got vacation? He can goal post it if he wants to. Where's the seniority in that?

SO !! What your MEC decided to do about that jacked up process is explore Smartpref PBS to handle the secondary bidding process. The idea was to expose you guys to the world of PBS on a level where ANYTHING was better than what you were doing.

But there is a missing piece of information that you haven't mentioned in your post. The news leaked out recently on the CRJ side and that's what all this fuss is about. Here is the way i heard it. Seems that the XJT MEC adopted a resolution in which they officially asked the ASA MEC to use their expertise and experience to help them explore and develop work rules for this new PBS system as a PRIMARY bidding system. The ASA guys agreed on the condition that if the system wouldn't work or rules could not be agreed upon, they maintain their current position. (which is flightline). If that's not quite right, maybe some of you guys in the know can shed some light in it for us. Did you know that?

Your MEC is seeking a PBS system as your PRIMARY system ....... An untested globalizing system. We shall talk more about globalizing later. I strongly suggest that every ERJ pilot learn EXACTLY what globalization does. You're going to need that info sooner than you think.

 

[NotTooBad]

This thread is a perfect example of why neither of the existing systems will work. Put yourself in their shoes. You are screwed either way. XJT line bidding remains and the ASA pilots say their MEC caved. ASA PBS remains and the XJT pilots say their MEC caved. Some may say this doesn't matter considering only one MEC will remain in the end.

A new system is the only logical solution politically. I encourage you to call your reps and ask them about globalization. I personally think it is a neat concept. We all understand "bid what you want and want what you bid"....with globalization that may change to "bid EXACTLY what you want and want EXACTLY what you bid". If you are broad with your parameters...then you didn't care in the first place.

 

[GeekMaster]

This thread is a perfect example of why neither of the existing systems will work. Put yourself in their shoes. You are screwed either way. XJT line bidding remains and the ASA pilots say their MEC caved. ASA PBS remains and the XJT pilots say their MEC caved. Some may say this doesn't matter considering only one MEC will remain in the end.

A new system is the only logical solution politically. I encourage you to call your reps and ask them about globalization. I personally think it is a neat concept. We all understand "bid what you want and want what you bid"....with globalization that may change to "bid EXACTLY what you want and want EXACTLY what you bid". If you are broad with your parameters...then you didn't care in the first place.

You clearly don't have a true handle on globalization. Globalization says that a senior pilot can bid exactly what he wants right down to a specific trip. Then, the system can take that trip away from that senior pilot and give it to a junior pilot in order to make the overall bid run work better. "sacrifice one for the greater good" concept. So say you're a commuter from OKC and you pick out a trip that has a long OKC overnight. How are you going to feel when the system gives your trip to a more junior pilot?