XJT MEC declares war on ASA pilots.

[Nevets]

So you're going to withold good trips from senior bidders so that junior bidders can have a better schedule? YGTBSM! Don't you ExpressJet people understand how seniority works? Why don't we just do away with the seniority system?

Where did I say that?

 

[ASADriver]

Where did I say that?

You said:
"With a work rule that says a certain percentage of trips are required to be left in open time."

 

[Nevets]

You said:
"With a work rule that says a certain percentage of trips are required to be left in open time."

You said, "So you're going to withold good trips from senior bidders so that junior bidders can have a better schedule?" In what language does, "With a work rule that says a certain percentage of trips are required to be left in open time" equate to what you insinuated I said? Sorry for the sarcasm but it's just that every time a possible solution is brought up, you guys make $hit up just because it doesn't agree with your assumptions. Trust me, as the person who wrote what you quoted,you are COMPLETELY wrong about your ridiculous interpretation!

 

[bigshooter107]

What percentage of trips or block hours? The whole point of any PBS system is to crew every possible pairing.

 

[Freebrd]

What percentage of trips or block hours? The whole point of any PBS system is to crew every possible pairing.

OK I'm ASA, and I think XJet pilots know that PBS tries to schedule as many if not all pairings as possible. I think they want a system that will have pairings created for trade and schedule enhancement AFTER the seniority pilots get theirs. Don't think BH and company will agree to that though. But nothing wrong with trying either.

 

[GeekMaster]

I think there is an extremely important piece of information missing here. This took ASA guys a while to get used to, but now they know it's true. The idea behind a good PBS system is to get you a schedule most suited to your likes THE FIRST TIME; within your seniority of course. Therefore, line improvement bidding becomes largely unnecessary. We have the open time windows, but there are probably more people picking up additional time than there are trading trips out.

 

[bigshooter107]

Every 3-4 pairings in open-time,is potentialy another full schedule for a guy that would have been on reserve.

 

[asayankee]

Every 3-4 pairings in open-time,is potentialy another full schedule for a guy that would have been on reserve.

PBS ALREADY does that without taking the extra step.

I also love how XJT's opposition to Flightline is that it on very rare occasions might not completely honor seniority...yet in the next breath they want a system that withholds pairings from the initial seniority bidding and puts them in a ILIW pot where whomever gets the computer first/quickest can improve their schedule the most. Doesn't make sense

 

[nerjdriver]

What percentage of trips or block hours? The whole point of any PBS system is to crew every possible pairing.

I really like that 3% of open time crew scheduling can hide. You guys let the company bend you over on absolutely everything. Its so ridiculous.

 

[nerjdriver]

PBS ALREADY does that without taking the extra step.

I also love how XJT's opposition to Flightline is that it on very rare occasions might not completely honor seniority...yet in the next breath they want a system that withholds pairings from the initial seniority bidding and puts them in a ILIW pot where whomever gets the computer first/quickest can improve their schedule the most. Doesn't make sense

Yea it doesn't have to i guess... we still don't want PBS

 

[nerjdriver]

D - R - E - A - M - E - R !!!

Or else them some good drugs you're on!

Nope just not a L - I - F - E - R. Better think of something other than PBS then! Until then my vote is NO, and I suspect more than enough of our 2700+ feel the same way. Enjoy ASA, the AWESOME SHRINKING AIRLINE

 

[nerjdriver]

Can we hand you the keys to a new BMW and a Wonka Golden Ticket, also?

Absolutely because this place isn't worth it any more. You guys are so brainwashed, do you honestly thing the pilots are going to bankrupt inc? What bodily fluid of Jerry, Chip, Brad and Charlie are you drinking and bathing in? This profession ended when RJ's showed up, the nails were put in the coffin when RJ pilots started negotiating contracts.

 

[sinkrate]

What percentage of trips or block hours? The whole point of any PBS system is to crew every possible pairing.

Depending on the pairings - there are typically a very small number of junk trips that, when forced on on the line holders, completely destroy the desireability of the junior lines. A good pbs system, administered by pilots, will not withhold any trips from bidding. Let each individual make his own choices. That is what PBS is about. What it will do is leave the left over junk that no one wants in open time. Now, some pilots will claim that that 'hoses' the reserves. The reality of PBS is that for it to benefit any pilot the entire pilot group must rethink what a reserve job is. Reserves become real reserves - not build up line holders with trips from open time. If collectively you can't do that you are going to screw everyone.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Absolutely because this place isn't worth it any more. You guys are so brainwashed, do you honestly thing the pilots are going to bankrupt inc? What bodily fluid of Jerry, Chip, Brad and Charlie are you drinking and bathing in? This profession ended when RJ's showed up, the nails were put in the coffin when RJ pilots started negotiating contracts.

No, we won't bankrupt Inc because they will shrink us or divest us prior to that.

 

[dojetdriver]

The idea behind a good PBS system is to get you a schedule most suited to your likes THE FIRST TIME; within your seniority of course.

Well, this is a good point. But what you're saying is "tough sh1t, you're junior, you get what you get. Weekends (etc) are not within you're seniority". In other words, whatever you get is NOT within in your seniority if you're too far down. With no recourse.

With line bid and XJT workrules, the SAME thing happens. Junior pilot gets what his seniority can hold, or what's "within your seniority". The DIFFERENCE is, the LIW's allow the pilot to change that/make it better. And they're NOT taking trips from anybody senior to them.

 

[Nevets]

I think there is an extremely important piece of information missing here. This took ASA guys a while to get used to, but now they know it's true. The idea behind a good PBS system is to get you a schedule most suited to your likes THE FIRST TIME; within your seniority of course. Therefore, line improvement bidding becomes largely unnecessary. We have the open time windows, but there are probably more people picking up additional time than there are trading trips out.

Here is an important point many don't get. I sometimes get exactly the line and trips I want from my initial bid. BUT sometimes somewhere along the road life happens and it no longer suits me because I need a certain day off, need a to start by a certain time, need to move my work days up a day, etc etc. Unless a certain percentage of trips (equivalent to what we have in our SLIW), then everyone is CEMENTED in their once perfect schedule. Sometimes I trade into a "junk trip" (that senior people didnt bid for) because of these types of situations. This is NOT largely unnecessary! If you actually understood our system, you would realize that anything else would be a further concession for XJT.

Like I've already said, there a few things that is affecting this debate whether we like it or not. For any PBS to be in the jcba, it's going to have to NOT be a concession for the XJT side for it to just have a CHANCE at ratification. The MECs have to operate under that reality and know which voting block is going to drive the outcome of ratification. Or wait however long to see if the negotiating climate changes in order to see if that equation favors a different set of realities.

I also love how XJT's opposition to Flightline is that it on very rare occasions might not completely honor seniority...yet in the next breath they want a system that withholds pairings from the initial seniority bidding and puts them in a ILIW pot where whomever gets the computer first/quickest can improve their schedule the most. Doesn't make sense

You are also making the assumption that trips would be withheld. Personally, I've never said that and would not even favor it. Please don't make strawman arguments and stick to what is actually being discussed or ask before assuming. Also, another thing I mentioned which is playing into this debate is the differences in culture, specifically the differences in the way each use seniority throughout their respective contracts.

 

[OCP]

Hey ASA pilots, What is your trip guarantee for a four day trip?

We have a min day of 3.86hrs per day. We have a 2:1 credit scheduled up to 12hrs then its 1:1. i.e. You have a scheduled 12 hr day you get paid 6 hrs. You have a 14 hr scheduled day you get 8 hrs. Max schedule is 14hrs. You get paid the greater of any of this. If you fly over the time you get paid that.
There is no specific guarantee for a 4 day trip.

 

[OCP]

Coming from another ASA pilot.....SKYW bought them because ASA was failing..... Have you considered the possibility that the merger was a way to prevent ASA from going under?

I don't know where you got that info, but it's completely wrong. ASA made tons of money. SKW bought us because Delta needed money for BK and SKW had it. They financed the deal and had ASA paid off in 2-3 years because of the money that ASA made. Look up the profits in the first few years after ASA was bought.
Was ASA run badly...? He!! yes, but it still made money.

 

[JoeMerchant]

What I'm trying to say is that both MECs have to deal with reality of what can and can't be ratified. The number comparison is just fact. The XJT side will have to be appeased more than the ASA side, especially since XJT has the better contract and we will not want to take a further concession. It wasn't meant as "we are bigger so we get what we want."

I don't know why any of this is a surprise to you. I told you in another thread that this is what would probably happen (speaking of smartpref). It's unfolding as predicted.

Both MECs do have to deal with the reality of what can and can't be ratified. The XJT PBS with globalization and the views your side has on seniority are DOA on this side....Therefor, there will not be a JCBA under these conditions.....That is the reality....

Anyway, I already mentioned two things that could mitigate globalization. But even if we do end up with globalization, what's wrong with that to make more efficient use of crews and stay cost competitive? After, it's you who always says that we have to play the game now that we don't have brand scope. Maybe this is just part of that? You should embrace it as a way of staying in business!

All kidding aside, the XJT side is going ahead with smartpref for relief/reserve lines. If it works, the company and the XJT MEC may pursue it. If it doesn't, I'm sure they will try to scrap it. In the end, it may take a change in the negotiating landscape to get a JCBA. That may take a long time. Which seems fine for everyone except management.

There will not be any "mitigating" globalization on this side. Your ideas of seniority won't fly on this side of the fence..period..end of discussion...You wouldn't believe the coalition of different beliefs over that are unified against your MEC on this issue. There are 3 of us very vocal people on the ALPA message boards that don't agree on ANYTHING, except this very issue...I will hand it to your MEC it has done more to unify us than anything....

Here is a question for you...Your pilots obviously don't want PBS in any form...So why is your MEC now pushing it? Why don't they just stick with your current system? I would rather have your current system than the PBS system your side is pushing...It has very few supporters...

 

[OCP]

To be clear you both are big bad voices on all these message boards, but to the rank and file, they know almost nothing about what either MEC is talking about. Joe is spouting a lot of "We"ness, but he really doesn't have any sort of majority to back it up. If you ask the majority of "ASA" they really don't know any of this. They like the system that we have, but don't know about anything that the XJT MEC is suggesting.
Part of that is because of the lack of communication on our MEC side.

 

[JoeMerchant]

To be clear you both are big bad voices on all these message boards, but to the rank and file, they know almost nothing about what either MEC is talking about. Joe is spouting a lot of "We"ness, but he really doesn't have any sort of majority to back it up. If you ask the majority of "ASA" they really don't know any of this. They like the system that we have, but don't know about anything that the XJT MEC is suggesting.
Part of that is because of the lack of communication on our MEC side.

That is simply a part of union negotiations. The rank and file never knows and never will really know a fraction of what goes on. When you go through ALPA training, they emphasize "hiding" these conflicts from the rank and file. They teach you that you can be at each others throat behind closed doors, but you need to come out singing kumbaya and showing a unified front.

These two MECs have been at each others throats since right after the purchase, but have been largely hiding it from the membership like any good ALPA person does. This creates even less communication because it is one thing to not air dirty laundry in public, but it is downright dishonest to actually say things are going good when they aren't....This tends to create information vaccums in these situations.

The XJT MEC didn't want PBS. Now they learned something from management that changed their mind. So now they have endorsed a PBS system that nobody else uses. They have endorsed a PBS system that uses globalization which is something that doesn't honor seniority. All of the "bad" PBS systems out there utilize "globalization".

This past week, the XJT publically attacked our MEC in a blastmail to their pilots.

Our MEC is trying to take the high road and not take this public. However it isn't working. It's time to respond to the attacks.

 

[Clutch]

Hey ASA pilots, What is your trip guarantee for a four day trip?

One thing's for sure, while ASA is working with a near 70% dooshbag to non-dooshbag pilot ratio, Expressjet is hovering in the neighborhood of 100%. Can't wait to hate working with you. Welcome to the family, Dooshers!

 

[701EV]

To be clear you both are big bad voices on all these message boards, but to the rank and file, they know almost nothing about what either MEC is talking about. Joe is spouting a lot of "We"ness, but he really doesn't have any sort of majority to back it up. If you ask the majority of "ASA" they really don't know any of this. They like the system that we have, but don't know about anything that the XJT MEC is suggesting.
Part of that is because of the lack of communication on our MEC side.

OCP, au contraire my brother!

JM is always in the know.

When the Three Amigos all agree on something on the ALPA Board watch out. Each has their own faction of backing. IMHO those three factions cover just about the entire pilot group. Probably better than the MEC can

You know they don't hide behind screen names.

If the Three Amigos get on a campaign they will get the entire pilot group behind them!

I will back them also!!

 

[Nevets]

Both MECs do have to deal with the reality of what can and can't be ratified. The XJT PBS with globalization and the views your side has on seniority are DOA on this side....Therefor, there will not be a JCBA under these conditions.....That is the reality....



There will not be any "mitigating" globalization on this side. Your ideas of seniority won't fly on this side of the fence..period..end of discussion...You wouldn't believe the coalition of different beliefs over that are unified against your MEC on this issue. There are 3 of us very vocal people on the ALPA message boards that don't agree on ANYTHING, except this very issue...I will hand it to your MEC it has done more to unify us than anything....

Here is a question for you...Your pilots obviously don't want PBS in any form...So why is your MEC now pushing it? Why don't they just stick with your current system? I would rather have your current system than the PBS system your side is pushing...It has very few supporters...

I don't disagree with you on what you just said. Like I eluded earlier on this thread, unless the negotiating climate changes, the realities may not allow a jcba with this current issue at hand. And we have both have said its ok to remain separate. No reason to rush into any concession.

As for mitigating globalization and the issue of seniority, what I'm saying is that you can have a PBS with globalization and mitigate, if not eliminate, the erosion of seniority that is introduced by globalization. I gave two real and easy examples of that. You don't need to be close minded about that. And I dont see why you would be against something that would make the operation more efficient and therefore more cost competitive in order to play this game we've been forced to play since the lost brand scope battle. Seems to be highly incongruent to your online forum lectures.

As for your question, like I told you, the XJT MEC is the one trying to be open minded and reasonable since your MEC won't even consider our line bidding and work rules. So they are doing their due diligence since it was bound to come up anyway. I believe that the XJT MEC will not agree to anything that isn't at least on the same QOL that we currently have, whether that is through remaining separate, keeping our line bidding and work rules in the jcba, or going with a PBS system in the jcba that will accomplish that. It seems like since they are forced to being the adult and at least entertaining the idea of PBS, that they found one that MIGHT accomplish their goal of maintaining the status quo as it pertains to QOL.

I don't know why this is a surprise to you. I mentioned this to you specifically when it came out that the XJT MEC was considering using Smartpref for our relief/reserve line holders. Its a brilliant move! It's a no lose situation for the XJT MEC at this point. Management was going to use another software system to build relief lines (rather than being built manually as they are now) because our contract doesnt stipulate how management builds those lines. Through the due diligence the XJT MEC had conducted looking into all PBS currently being used and others not being used, they identified one that may deliver something workable. Management is going along with it. If it doesnt work, then the XJT MEC goes back to the previous position in favoring our line bidding and work rules over your PBS. If its shown to produce at least the same QOL as our current line bidding and work rules, then not only do you have a PBS that is better than flightline in terms of QOL but you also have a management with a system they are ok with and convinced the larger voting block to go with PBS. Like I said, it's brilliant.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

Well, this is a good point. But what you're saying is "tough sh1t, you're junior, you get what you get. Weekends (etc) are not within you're seniority". In other words, whatever you get is NOT within in your seniority if you're too far down. With no recourse.

With line bid and XJT workrules, the SAME thing happens. Junior pilot gets what his seniority can hold, or what's "within your seniority". The DIFFERENCE is, the LIW's allow the pilot to change that/make it better. And they're NOT taking trips from anybody senior to them.

I'm not there, so I have no dog in this fight, but I do want to point out that this above clearly demonstrates the XJT MEC's dislike for seniority. The very concept of their line improvent concept is that it's an end run around seniority! Our Navtech took a long time to learn, but everyone seems to like it. My friends at CAL and SKW hate their globalized system. My friends at ASA love their Flightline, and I've heard our MEC even looked at it.

Either way, from this above comment, you can see the real motivating force behind this move on the part of the Expressjet pilots. They hate the seniority system. They don't think it's "fair". Well I say too bad, boys, you picked the wrong industry. This is socialism at its finest!

I've also heard from my friend at Expressjet that this guy who goes by the name "dojetdriver" is on the Expressjet scheduling committee that is pushing this deal. So take his blue-in-the-face arguments here in that context.

 

[Max Q]

ASA's PBS rocks.

</thread>

 

[Nevets]

I'm not there, so I have no dog in this fight, but I do want to point out that this above clearly demonstrates the XJT MEC's dislike for seniority. The very concept of their line improvent concept is that it's an end run around seniority! Our Navtech took a long time to learn, but everyone seems to like it. My friends at CAL and SKW hate their globalized system. My friends at ASA love their Flightline, and I've heard our MEC even looked at it.

Either way, from this above comment, you can see the real motivating force behind this move on the part of the Expressjet pilots. They hate the seniority system. They don't think it's "fair". Well I say too bad, boys, you picked the wrong industry. This is socialism at its finest!

I've also heard from my friend at Expressjet that this guy who goes by the name "dojetdriver" is on the Expressjet scheduling committee that is pushing this deal. So take his blue-in-the-face arguments here in that context.

I don't know how you got that XJT has a dislike for seniority or that the LIW is an end run around seniority from that post. The ILIW is just a byproduct of our bidding system and other work rules within our contract. There will always be trips that are never flown in the line your seniority allowed you to get in a line bidding system. Whether that is the number one guy that has day trips and weekends off to the last guy who works 4 day trips over the weekend. Each will have trips fall of their awarded schedule due to conflicts in transition, violation of contract and FAR, training, vacation, etc (of course other than drops due to FAR violations, the others are due to work rules within the contract that may not have existed in the numbers they do if it were not gained through negotiations). This necessitated relief lines. But instead of relief lines being built for people not senior enough to hold a hard line with trips that used to belong to the more senior hard line holders, they decided that seniority meant enough to allow the senior hard line holder first crack at those trips that were dropped from those same senior people. The fact that we are able to massage our schedules so much in the ILIW has also been greatly helped by settlement of a group grievance that had NOTHING to do with scheduling that required the company to set the coverage at +4 for every day of the month except for 6 days, along with the 60 hour floor. Again, a work rules that were negotiated for. I'm sure that XJT, just using the scheduling tools (software) they were required to use at the time, CCS/CMS because they were given to them by CAL because of the previous ownership situation, they probably found it too cumbersome and not worth it in the long run, to make hundreds of trades, drops, swaps, etc executed in the 24 hour ILIW strictly seniority based. Especially since the contract doesn't follow strict seniority in other areas as well, vacation awards being the biggest example.

Fast forward to now, after years of doing it this way, it's become something that all levels of seniority embrace. Even those not holding hard lines knowing that eventually they will be there as well. The only thing I hear the non-hard line holders complain about is the trip ownership rules in the APW. That is an EASY fix that doesn't cost anyone money. Soooo, IF the XJT side would go to a PBS system, I would think that they would want the same amount of open time that currently exist in our SLIW. Notice I said SLIW, not ILIW. I've explained why I think they we would want that in previous posts giving some credit to the notion that PBS allows you to build a schedule more to your liking from the very start but acknowledging that any system will always create schedules that will never satisfy everyone 100% of the time and throughout the whole month after its already started.

I honestly don't think that would be that much of a seniority concession (in terms of bidding schedules) for the ASA side compared to how they do things now.

 

[79%N1]

It's not going to work with PBS the way you do it, and here is why. Those "good trips" that made it into the LIW'S from the senior lineholders dropping conflicts from their line that you have will never make it there (open time) with PBS, because they will go onto the next bidder and therefore not ever see open time. The only stuff that will make it to open time after the bid run is the crap trips that nobody wanted. That's why leaving a percentage of open time is moot with PBS......no conflicting trips. A trip that in your line bidding would have been dropped by bidder #1 due to a conflict in his schedule into your LIW'S would be skipped over by PBS....it is now available to bidder #2,3,4 etc. Now they have that trip on their initial schedule instead of hoping to grab it up in open time. It's a completely different concept than you are used to, but forcing them to contractually leave open time will not work as you desire.

 

[dojetdriver]

It's not going to work with PBS the way you do it, and here is why. Those "good trips" that made it into the LIW'S from the senior lineholders dropping conflicts from their line that you have will never make it there (open time) with PBS, because they will go onto the next bidder and therefore not ever see open time. The only stuff that will make it to open time after the bid run is the crap trips that nobody wanted. That's why leaving a percentage of open time is moot with PBS......no conflicting trips. A trip that in your line bidding would have been dropped by bidder #1 due to a conflict in his schedule into your LIW'S would be skipped over by PBS....it is now available to bidder #2,3,4 etc. Now they have that trip on their initial schedule instead of hoping to grab it up in open time. It's a completely different concept than you are used to, but forcing them to contractually leave open time will not work as you desire.

Read the post I made before. "good trips" is a relative term. One man's trash is another man's treasure.

I'm not there, so I have no dog in this fight, but I do want to point out that this above clearly demonstrates the XJT MEC's dislike for seniority. The very concept of their line improvent concept is that it's an end run around seniority! Our Navtech took a long time to learn, but everyone seems to like it. My friends at CAL and SKW hate their globalized system. My friends at ASA love their Flightline, and I've heard our MEC even looked at it.

Either way, from this above comment, you can see the real motivating force behind this move on the part of the Expressjet pilots. They hate the seniority system. They don't think it's "fair". Well I say too bad, boys, you picked the wrong industry. This is socialism at its finest!

I've also heard from my friend at Expressjet that this guy who goes by the name "dojetdriver" is on the Expressjet scheduling committee that is pushing this deal. So take his blue-in-the-face arguments here in that context.

First off, you're wrong..........

..........and second, thanks for the laugh today.

 

[Nevets]

It's not going to work with PBS the way you do it, and here is why. Those "good trips" that made it into the LIW'S from the senior lineholders dropping conflicts from their line that you have will never make it there (open time) with PBS, because they will go onto the next bidder and therefore not ever see open time. The only stuff that will make it to open time after the bid run is the crap trips that nobody wanted. That's why leaving a percentage of open time is moot with PBS......no conflicting trips. A trip that in your line bidding would have been dropped by bidder #1 due to a conflict in his schedule into your LIW'S would be skipped over by PBS....it is now available to bidder #2,3,4 etc. Now they have that trip on their initial schedule instead of hoping to grab it up in open time. It's a completely different concept than you are used to, but forcing them to contractually leave open time will not work as you desire.

Look, I'm not going to repeat myself but I know this is a long thread. So just go back and read post #196.

Please guys, don't just look for reasons why ideas won't work just because you are beholden to the way you do things now. Just look at us at XJT, we have a line bidding system we are happy with yet our MEC is looking at ways that another system could achieve the same level of happiness all in the name of uniting us. So please don't try to build walls between us just because of the discomfort of change. If we do end up with PBS, it'll be better than what you have now or we will just stay separate, because for us to go with what you have now would be a concession and I'm pretty confident that that would either be rejected by the JNC, or the XJT MEC, or by pilots voting it down.