XJT MEC declares war on ASA pilots.

[dojetdriver]

I do KNOW the info I've been given to be factual. Not going to "out" the multiple names. Don't need to.

Do you have access to the blastmail sent out? Specifically outlining who screwed up? Not only on breaking confidentiality from an executive session, but also sound biting things that were said and taking them as gospel?

May cause you to question what you consider to be factual.

 

[SpaceShipEarth]

My God.... If all you people signed up for online classes and spent this much time writing this much stuff on class discussion boards you would all have a Masters degree by now!

 

[Jack-O-Lantern]

You clearly don't have a true handle on globalization. Globalization says that a senior pilot can bid exactly what he wants right down to a specific trip. Then, the system can take that trip away from that senior pilot and give it to a junior pilot in order to make the overall bid run work better. "sacrifice one for the greater good" concept. So say you're a commuter from OKC and you pick out a trip that has a long OKC overnight. How are you going to feel when the system gives your trip to a more junior pilot?

That is exactly what is wrong with this!!!!

 

[bigshooter107]

As the program approaches the junior lineholders, there are fewer trips to work with. At times, because of a vacation, training event, or other leave, it will be impossible to combine those trips and "pre-assigned credits" into a legal line, so that bidder will be forced into reserve. Conversely, a bidder with the same event at a different time during the month may be awarded a line, even though numerous senior bidders were forced to reserve. This creates the concept of "lucky lineholders/unlucky reserves", which directly violates seniority

NO I dont think this violates senority. The system has already looked at every scenario to build the last avaible line at the bottom of the credit window for the month. Then the software try's to use the left over pairings (opentime) to build a schedule that gets to the 65 hour window( vacation low) it's easier to build the schedule because there is already 28 hours of credit to start. If a guy only needs a three day and four day to complete 65 hours why would that violate senority. As far as this system vs that system, it seems either way we have to demand more control on pairing design and the bottom of the credit window. Other wise with any software product, garbage in , garbage out.

 

[dojetdriver]

As the program approaches the junior lineholders, there are fewer trips to work with. At times, because of a vacation, training event, or other leave, it will be impossible to combine those trips and "pre-assigned credits" into a legal line, so that bidder will be forced into reserve. Conversely, a bidder with the same event at a different time during the month may be awarded a line, even though numerous senior bidders were forced to reserve. This creates the concept of "lucky lineholders/unlucky reserves", which directly violates seniority

NO I dont think this violates senority. The system has already looked at every scenario to build the last avaible line at the bottom of the credit window for the month. Then the software try's to use the left over pairings (opentime) to build a schedule that gets to the 65 hour window( vacation low) it's easier to build the schedule because there is already 28 hours of credit to start. If a guy only needs a three day and four day to complete 65 hours why would that violate senority. As far as this system vs that system, it seems either way we have to demand more control on pairing design and the bottom of the credit window. Other wise with any software product, garbage in , garbage out.

If a pilot is senior enough to hold a line as well as bids a line (as opposed to intentionally bidding reserve), they SHOULD be awarded a line, NOT placed on reserve. That's seniority.

Just because a pilot doesn't game the system properly DOESN'T mean they shouldn't be a awarded a line if they're awarded a line.

If the pilots gets a awarded a crappy line, then they should fix it via trip trade, etc.

 

[GeekMaster]

If a pilot is senior enough to hold a line as well as bids a line (as opposed to intentionally bidding reserve), they SHOULD be awarded a line, NOT placed on reserve. That's seniority.

Just because a pilot doesn't game the system properly DOESN'T mean they shouldn't be a awarded a line if they're awarded a line.

If the pilots gets a awarded a crappy line, then they should fix it via trip trade, etc.

There's a known fix for this problem. Ask any Asa rep or scheduling guy.

 

[dojetdriver]

There's a known fix for this problem. Ask any Asa rep or scheduling guy.

There shouldn't have to be a "known fix" for it. It should honor seniority, 100% of the time and award a line to a person that can hold one/bids one.

Your argument thus far had been that it does. As evidenced by other posters, as well as what you said above, that's just NOT factual that it honors seniority. It's more about how one "gamed the system".

Should a pilot know how to bid? Well of course they should. But being put on reserve because the system put them there when then should hold a line is NOT a seniority system. Plain and simple.

 

[bigshooter107]

If a pilot is senior enough to hold a line as well as bids a line (as opposed to intentionally bidding reserve), they SHOULD be awarded a line, NOT placed on reserve. That's seniority.

Just because a pilot doesn't game the system properly DOESN'T mean they shouldn't be a awarded a line if they're awarded a line.

If the pilots gets a awarded a crappy line, then they should fix it via trip trade, etc.

Not sure what u mean game the system. PBS awards every pilot a schedule that can complete a legal schedule up to the credit window. The pilots with preasigned credit have schedules built with the pairings that are left over. It does not look at a " reserve " pilot with vacation before a more senior bidder. BTW with the increase and decrease of block hours for the month guys on the fence will always fluctuate between a schedule and reserve..

 

[dojetdriver]

Not sure what u mean game the system. PBS awards every pilot a schedule that can complete a legal schedule up to the credit window. The pilots with preasigned credit have schedules built with the pairings

OK, so you're saying that a senior pilot is NEVER awarded a reserve line while a junior gets a hard line?

Pretty sure someone has said before that it DOES happen.

 

[bigshooter107]

OK, so you're saying that a senior pilot is NEVER awarded a reserve line while a junior gets a hard line?

Pretty sure someone has said before that it DOES happen.

U would have to define "senior bidder" . Last month on the 700cpt Atl, PBS predicted 192 schedules. Now in a hard line system u would know that if u are # 192 u will get a schedule. With PBS, depending on how the other 191 guys bid that's not true. Some guys build schedules that are heavy on the first or last of the month or around holidays. Remember u are only bidding on trip pairings not a "line" of trips. Because of this many months u see large blocks of opentime left on one particular week or maybe two. When the system builds the last schedule to the credit window, in this case looks like bidder 163, it begins to take the next senior bidder wit vac, training etc and looks to complete their schedule with the leftover pairings. If your vacation is at the first of the month and the 3rd and 4th weeks have a trip pairing that will complete u at 65 hours. Then u get a schedule. If ur vacation is at the end of the month and no open pairings in the 1st week then u are stuck on res. PBS is primarily designed to use all pairings and build as many schedules as possible. Ie the need for less reserves.
Small snap shot last month..
Last no preasigned credit sked. 163
Bidder 168..7 days of vac in the 1st week . Res
Bidder 175..14 days vac.. 1 admin credit .. Sked complete
Bidder 187..7 days...........2-4 day trips
Bidder 190 ..7 vac 4- days training..... 1-4 day trip
Bidders 195-198-210 7days vacation in the first of the month 2-4 day trips at the end to complete. 222 total 700 Atl cpts.
These more junior captains got schedules because where their vacation was and where the open pairings were. FYI on the 700 in Atl the bottom 20 captains have been here for as long as twelve years, not really junior.

 

[GeekMaster]

There shouldn't have to be a "known fix" for it. It should honor seniority, 100% of the time and award a line to a person that can hold one/bids one.

Your argument thus far had been that it does. As evidenced by other posters, as well as what you said above, that's just NOT factual that it honors seniority. It's more about how one "gamed the system".

Should a pilot know how to bid? Well of course they should. But being put on reserve because the system put them there when then should hold a line is NOT a seniority system. Plain and simple.

The software does honor seniority. It's a work rule that needs fixing. Don't throw out the Ferrari over a bad plug wire.

 

[Nevets]

There's a known fix for this problem. Ask any Asa rep or scheduling guy.

There are known fixes to globalization also.

 

[dojetdriver]

U would have to define "senior bidder" . Last month on the 700cpt Atl, PBS predicted 192 schedules. Now in a hard line system u would know that if u are # 192 u will get a schedule. With PBS, depending on how the other 191 guys bid that's not true. Some guys build schedules that are heavy on the first or last of the month or around holidays. Remember u are only bidding on trip pairings not a "line" of trips. Because of this many months u see large blocks of opentime left on one particular week or maybe two. When the system builds the last schedule to the credit window, in this case looks like bidder 163, it begins to take the next senior bidder wit vac, training etc and looks to complete their schedule with the leftover pairings. If your vacation is at the first of the month and the 3rd and 4th weeks have a trip pairing that will complete u at 65 hours. Then u get a schedule. If ur vacation is at the end of the month and no open pairings in the 1st week then u are stuck on res. PBS is primarily designed to use all pairings and build as many schedules as possible. Ie the need for less reserves.
Small snap shot last month..
Last no preasigned credit sked. 163
Bidder 168..7 days of vac in the 1st week . Res
Bidder 175..14 days vac.. 1 admin credit .. Sked complete
Bidder 187..7 days...........2-4 day trips
Bidder 190 ..7 vac 4- days training..... 1-4 day trip
Bidders 195-198-210 7days vacation in the first of the month 2-4 day trips at the end to complete. 222 total 700 Atl cpts.

OK, what happens when unstack is exercised?

These more junior captains got schedules because where their vacation was and where the open pairings were. FYI on the 700 in Atl the bottom 20 captains have been here for as long as twelve years, not really junior.

And that sucks. But something to remember, seniority is NOT longevity when it comes to domicile breakdowns. !2+ year CA's have longevity, they have NO seniority in their category. Two very different things. You're only senior to the guy above you, even if you're #2 from the bottom. You're always junor to the guy above you, even if you are #2 on the list. I've been there at my previous job, both situations.

There are known fixes to globalization also.

Yep, if only some guys would read the analysis of the system. System A's globalization is NOT the same as System B's globalization. Just like System A's line bid in NOT the same as System B's line bid. System A's unstack is not the same as System B's unstack etc etc etc.

 

[GeekMaster]

There are known fixes to globalization also.

Really? Do tell.

 

[dojetdriver]

Really? Do tell.

It's all in the report, and I believe I posted the relevant section.

 

[Nevets]

Really? Do tell.

Let me start by saying that I'm neither for or against globalization as of yet. Also, there are a couple of things playing into the mix of this debate. I'll mention one right now, differences in culture. At XJT, in my opinion only, it seems that we are not so intransigent when it comes to seniority as it relates in most things dealing with anything other than base/status and line holder/reserve, as ASA is. With that said, a couple of things I can think just off the top of my head that could mitigate any PBS software that "uses" globalization, assuming for the moment that is what we want to do, is have language that allows composite lines and/or guaranteed percentage of open time left over after ALL schedules have been modified/built/rebuilt/etc. Going on the safe assumption that the XJT side would rather keep their current contract rather than ratify one with less QOL (my assumption none the less), the latter is definitely one of many assurances (concrete contract language if there is such a thing) that the XJT side would insist on IF we end up with ANY PBS system.

 

[bigshooter107]

guaranteed percentage of open time left over after ALL schedules have been modified/built/rebuilt/etc.
Just for kicks... One 4 day trip and one 2 day left on the 700 last month after the bid run...

 

[bigshooter107]

If they have to unstack, say Xmas day for example. The most junior guy that got that day or trip off would have to fly. If it were line bidding they just would not build more schedules than the staffing model would allow.

 

[Nevets]

guaranteed percentage of open time left over after ALL schedules have been modified/built/rebuilt/etc.
Just for kicks... One 4 day trip and one 2 day left on the 700 last month after the bid run...

And therein lies the erosion of QOL in your contract to XJT if we were to let the company do that in a JCBA. Which is why I made it more imperative on my last post. By the way, I'm only talking about leaving the same amount of open time that they do now after the SLWI opens. It's more than two trips but it's not even close to the amount in the ILIW.

 

[sweptback]

Why would you want to force the company to maintain open time at the end of a PBS run? All you're doing is forcing a non-negligible amount of junior people to be on reserve when they could have held lines with those left over pairings.

They're not going to care about your ability to improve your schedule when you already used your seniority to bid the exact pairings you wanted.

It's becoming more and more obvious that these XJT folks don't understand PBS, at all. I hope whomever is on the XJT MEC side making the calls on PBS understands what they are asking for, otherwise we will end up with a treat of a system.