XJT MEC declares war on ASA pilots.

[dojetdriver]

I do KNOW the info I've been given to be factual. Not going to "out" the multiple names. Don't need to.

Do you have access to the blastmail sent out? Specifically outlining who screwed up? Not only on breaking confidentiality from an executive session, but also sound biting things that were said and taking them as gospel?

May cause you to question what you consider to be factual.

 

[SpaceShipEarth]

My God.... If all you people signed up for online classes and spent this much time writing this much stuff on class discussion boards you would all have a Masters degree by now!

 

[Jack-O-Lantern]

You clearly don't have a true handle on globalization. Globalization says that a senior pilot can bid exactly what he wants right down to a specific trip. Then, the system can take that trip away from that senior pilot and give it to a junior pilot in order to make the overall bid run work better. "sacrifice one for the greater good" concept. So say you're a commuter from OKC and you pick out a trip that has a long OKC overnight. How are you going to feel when the system gives your trip to a more junior pilot?

That is exactly what is wrong with this!!!!

 

[bigshooter107]

As the program approaches the junior lineholders, there are fewer trips to work with. At times, because of a vacation, training event, or other leave, it will be impossible to combine those trips and "pre-assigned credits" into a legal line, so that bidder will be forced into reserve. Conversely, a bidder with the same event at a different time during the month may be awarded a line, even though numerous senior bidders were forced to reserve. This creates the concept of "lucky lineholders/unlucky reserves", which directly violates seniority

NO I dont think this violates senority. The system has already looked at every scenario to build the last avaible line at the bottom of the credit window for the month. Then the software try's to use the left over pairings (opentime) to build a schedule that gets to the 65 hour window( vacation low) it's easier to build the schedule because there is already 28 hours of credit to start. If a guy only needs a three day and four day to complete 65 hours why would that violate senority. As far as this system vs that system, it seems either way we have to demand more control on pairing design and the bottom of the credit window. Other wise with any software product, garbage in , garbage out.

 

[dojetdriver]

As the program approaches the junior lineholders, there are fewer trips to work with. At times, because of a vacation, training event, or other leave, it will be impossible to combine those trips and "pre-assigned credits" into a legal line, so that bidder will be forced into reserve. Conversely, a bidder with the same event at a different time during the month may be awarded a line, even though numerous senior bidders were forced to reserve. This creates the concept of "lucky lineholders/unlucky reserves", which directly violates seniority

NO I dont think this violates senority. The system has already looked at every scenario to build the last avaible line at the bottom of the credit window for the month. Then the software try's to use the left over pairings (opentime) to build a schedule that gets to the 65 hour window( vacation low) it's easier to build the schedule because there is already 28 hours of credit to start. If a guy only needs a three day and four day to complete 65 hours why would that violate senority. As far as this system vs that system, it seems either way we have to demand more control on pairing design and the bottom of the credit window. Other wise with any software product, garbage in , garbage out.

If a pilot is senior enough to hold a line as well as bids a line (as opposed to intentionally bidding reserve), they SHOULD be awarded a line, NOT placed on reserve. That's seniority.

Just because a pilot doesn't game the system properly DOESN'T mean they shouldn't be a awarded a line if they're awarded a line.

If the pilots gets a awarded a crappy line, then they should fix it via trip trade, etc.

 

[GeekMaster]

If a pilot is senior enough to hold a line as well as bids a line (as opposed to intentionally bidding reserve), they SHOULD be awarded a line, NOT placed on reserve. That's seniority.

Just because a pilot doesn't game the system properly DOESN'T mean they shouldn't be a awarded a line if they're awarded a line.

If the pilots gets a awarded a crappy line, then they should fix it via trip trade, etc.

There's a known fix for this problem. Ask any Asa rep or scheduling guy.

 

[dojetdriver]

There's a known fix for this problem. Ask any Asa rep or scheduling guy.

There shouldn't have to be a "known fix" for it. It should honor seniority, 100% of the time and award a line to a person that can hold one/bids one.

Your argument thus far had been that it does. As evidenced by other posters, as well as what you said above, that's just NOT factual that it honors seniority. It's more about how one "gamed the system".

Should a pilot know how to bid? Well of course they should. But being put on reserve because the system put them there when then should hold a line is NOT a seniority system. Plain and simple.

 

[bigshooter107]

If a pilot is senior enough to hold a line as well as bids a line (as opposed to intentionally bidding reserve), they SHOULD be awarded a line, NOT placed on reserve. That's seniority.

Just because a pilot doesn't game the system properly DOESN'T mean they shouldn't be a awarded a line if they're awarded a line.

If the pilots gets a awarded a crappy line, then they should fix it via trip trade, etc.

Not sure what u mean game the system. PBS awards every pilot a schedule that can complete a legal schedule up to the credit window. The pilots with preasigned credit have schedules built with the pairings that are left over. It does not look at a " reserve " pilot with vacation before a more senior bidder. BTW with the increase and decrease of block hours for the month guys on the fence will always fluctuate between a schedule and reserve..

 

[dojetdriver]

Not sure what u mean game the system. PBS awards every pilot a schedule that can complete a legal schedule up to the credit window. The pilots with preasigned credit have schedules built with the pairings

OK, so you're saying that a senior pilot is NEVER awarded a reserve line while a junior gets a hard line?

Pretty sure someone has said before that it DOES happen.

 

[bigshooter107]

OK, so you're saying that a senior pilot is NEVER awarded a reserve line while a junior gets a hard line?

Pretty sure someone has said before that it DOES happen.

U would have to define "senior bidder" . Last month on the 700cpt Atl, PBS predicted 192 schedules. Now in a hard line system u would know that if u are # 192 u will get a schedule. With PBS, depending on how the other 191 guys bid that's not true. Some guys build schedules that are heavy on the first or last of the month or around holidays. Remember u are only bidding on trip pairings not a "line" of trips. Because of this many months u see large blocks of opentime left on one particular week or maybe two. When the system builds the last schedule to the credit window, in this case looks like bidder 163, it begins to take the next senior bidder wit vac, training etc and looks to complete their schedule with the leftover pairings. If your vacation is at the first of the month and the 3rd and 4th weeks have a trip pairing that will complete u at 65 hours. Then u get a schedule. If ur vacation is at the end of the month and no open pairings in the 1st week then u are stuck on res. PBS is primarily designed to use all pairings and build as many schedules as possible. Ie the need for less reserves.
Small snap shot last month..
Last no preasigned credit sked. 163
Bidder 168..7 days of vac in the 1st week . Res
Bidder 175..14 days vac.. 1 admin credit .. Sked complete
Bidder 187..7 days...........2-4 day trips
Bidder 190 ..7 vac 4- days training..... 1-4 day trip
Bidders 195-198-210 7days vacation in the first of the month 2-4 day trips at the end to complete. 222 total 700 Atl cpts.
These more junior captains got schedules because where their vacation was and where the open pairings were. FYI on the 700 in Atl the bottom 20 captains have been here for as long as twelve years, not really junior.

 

[GeekMaster]

There shouldn't have to be a "known fix" for it. It should honor seniority, 100% of the time and award a line to a person that can hold one/bids one.

Your argument thus far had been that it does. As evidenced by other posters, as well as what you said above, that's just NOT factual that it honors seniority. It's more about how one "gamed the system".

Should a pilot know how to bid? Well of course they should. But being put on reserve because the system put them there when then should hold a line is NOT a seniority system. Plain and simple.

The software does honor seniority. It's a work rule that needs fixing. Don't throw out the Ferrari over a bad plug wire.

 

[Nevets]

There's a known fix for this problem. Ask any Asa rep or scheduling guy.

There are known fixes to globalization also.

 

[dojetdriver]

U would have to define "senior bidder" . Last month on the 700cpt Atl, PBS predicted 192 schedules. Now in a hard line system u would know that if u are # 192 u will get a schedule. With PBS, depending on how the other 191 guys bid that's not true. Some guys build schedules that are heavy on the first or last of the month or around holidays. Remember u are only bidding on trip pairings not a "line" of trips. Because of this many months u see large blocks of opentime left on one particular week or maybe two. When the system builds the last schedule to the credit window, in this case looks like bidder 163, it begins to take the next senior bidder wit vac, training etc and looks to complete their schedule with the leftover pairings. If your vacation is at the first of the month and the 3rd and 4th weeks have a trip pairing that will complete u at 65 hours. Then u get a schedule. If ur vacation is at the end of the month and no open pairings in the 1st week then u are stuck on res. PBS is primarily designed to use all pairings and build as many schedules as possible. Ie the need for less reserves.
Small snap shot last month..
Last no preasigned credit sked. 163
Bidder 168..7 days of vac in the 1st week . Res
Bidder 175..14 days vac.. 1 admin credit .. Sked complete
Bidder 187..7 days...........2-4 day trips
Bidder 190 ..7 vac 4- days training..... 1-4 day trip
Bidders 195-198-210 7days vacation in the first of the month 2-4 day trips at the end to complete. 222 total 700 Atl cpts.

OK, what happens when unstack is exercised?

These more junior captains got schedules because where their vacation was and where the open pairings were. FYI on the 700 in Atl the bottom 20 captains have been here for as long as twelve years, not really junior.

And that sucks. But something to remember, seniority is NOT longevity when it comes to domicile breakdowns. !2+ year CA's have longevity, they have NO seniority in their category. Two very different things. You're only senior to the guy above you, even if you're #2 from the bottom. You're always junor to the guy above you, even if you are #2 on the list. I've been there at my previous job, both situations.

There are known fixes to globalization also.

Yep, if only some guys would read the analysis of the system. System A's globalization is NOT the same as System B's globalization. Just like System A's line bid in NOT the same as System B's line bid. System A's unstack is not the same as System B's unstack etc etc etc.

 

[GeekMaster]

There are known fixes to globalization also.

Really? Do tell.

 

[dojetdriver]

Really? Do tell.

It's all in the report, and I believe I posted the relevant section.

 

[Nevets]

Really? Do tell.

Let me start by saying that I'm neither for or against globalization as of yet. Also, there are a couple of things playing into the mix of this debate. I'll mention one right now, differences in culture. At XJT, in my opinion only, it seems that we are not so intransigent when it comes to seniority as it relates in most things dealing with anything other than base/status and line holder/reserve, as ASA is. With that said, a couple of things I can think just off the top of my head that could mitigate any PBS software that "uses" globalization, assuming for the moment that is what we want to do, is have language that allows composite lines and/or guaranteed percentage of open time left over after ALL schedules have been modified/built/rebuilt/etc. Going on the safe assumption that the XJT side would rather keep their current contract rather than ratify one with less QOL (my assumption none the less), the latter is definitely one of many assurances (concrete contract language if there is such a thing) that the XJT side would insist on IF we end up with ANY PBS system.

 

[bigshooter107]

guaranteed percentage of open time left over after ALL schedules have been modified/built/rebuilt/etc.
Just for kicks... One 4 day trip and one 2 day left on the 700 last month after the bid run...

 

[bigshooter107]

If they have to unstack, say Xmas day for example. The most junior guy that got that day or trip off would have to fly. If it were line bidding they just would not build more schedules than the staffing model would allow.

 

[Nevets]

guaranteed percentage of open time left over after ALL schedules have been modified/built/rebuilt/etc.
Just for kicks... One 4 day trip and one 2 day left on the 700 last month after the bid run...

And therein lies the erosion of QOL in your contract to XJT if we were to let the company do that in a JCBA. Which is why I made it more imperative on my last post. By the way, I'm only talking about leaving the same amount of open time that they do now after the SLWI opens. It's more than two trips but it's not even close to the amount in the ILIW.

 

[sweptback]

Why would you want to force the company to maintain open time at the end of a PBS run? All you're doing is forcing a non-negligible amount of junior people to be on reserve when they could have held lines with those left over pairings.

They're not going to care about your ability to improve your schedule when you already used your seniority to bid the exact pairings you wanted.

It's becoming more and more obvious that these XJT folks don't understand PBS, at all. I hope whomever is on the XJT MEC side making the calls on PBS understands what they are asking for, otherwise we will end up with a treat of a system.

 

[bigshooter107]

In a perfect world there would be no opentime and just enough reserves to cover sick calls. A large block of opentime is exactly what PBS is there to prevent.

 

[goahead]

It's becoming more and more obvious that these XJT folks don't understand PBS, at all. I hope whomever is on the XJT MEC side making the calls on PBS understands what they are asking for, otherwise we will end up with a treat of a system.

Exactly

 

[dojetdriver]

It's becoming more and more obvious that these XJT folks don't understand PBS, at all. I hope whomever is on the XJT MEC side making the calls on PBS understands what they are asking for, otherwise we will end up with a treat of a system.

Not to be rude, but it's becoming more and more obvious that 1) these ASA folks don't understand that not ALL PBS systems are equal, and there may be a better one out there that can conform to the XJT contract better, and 2) These ASA folks are to ignorant to understand that the XJT line bid system is NOT the ASA line bid system of old. And 3) They need to get ahold of their OWN MEC members that broke the confidentiality agreement and sound bit from an executive session and really just should have kept their mouths shut in the first place. Because without them, this particular deal WOULDN'T be happening. You CAN'T ignore that fact.

To take a line from the movie "Presumed Innocent" starring Harrison Ford

"read the fukcin' report"

Again, not to be rude or disrespectful. But if you're gonna dish it out, you better be able to take it.

You ready to answer the question I asked you about the email?

 

[ASADriver]

It's obvious that XJT pilots don't value seniority like ASA pilots. It seems like they want a socialized system that treats everyone the same. Sorry, that's not how this business works. Just say NO to globalization!

 

[sweptback]

Who cares about a PBS system that fits with the XJT contract? The XJT contract is irrelevant, the JCBA is what we are working on going forward.

I highly doubt the XJT contract is the end-all-be-all of QOL, so let's be a bit openminded here. We have a rare opportunity to negotiate something good, and if we try to hold on to what's on our respective sides, we're all going to miss out.

 

[79%N1]

Let's ask the guys who will be stuck on reserve that could hold lines if they are down with leaving a bunch of pairings in open time so others can improve their schedules!

Nice.......

 

[dojetdriver]

It's obvious that XJT pilots don't value seniority like ASA pilots. It seems like they want a socialized system that treats everyone the same. Sorry, that's not how this business works. Just say NO to globalization!

And you couldn't be more ignorant, or more wrong, take your pick. XJT pilots value seniority, they ALSO value the ability of a junior line holder that gets a crappy schedule (can happen under EITHER line bid OR PBS) to have the ability to fix it. That doesn't happen with the current ASA PBS, especially when unstack is used. Some pilots love the ASA PBS, some hate it. As evidenced here or the face to face I have with ASA guys in IAD. How may XJT pilots don't like the line bid/work rules?

Who cares about a PBS system that fits with the XJT contract? The XJT contract is irrelevant, the JCBA is what we are working on going forward.

Because the XJT CBA is better than the ASA CBA. I'll make you the offer AGAIN, let's compare side by side and see which one you'd rather have. And at a minimum, the XJT contract as far as work rules should be used as the STARTING point, NOT the ASA PBS. But if you want to get on your knees, surrender, and drink the kool aid like JoeMerchant, have at it brotha'

I highly doubt the XJT contract is the end-all-be-all of QOL, so let's be a bit openminded here. We have a rare opportunity to negotiate something good, and if we try to hold on to what's on our respective sides, we're all going to miss out.

It's not, and needs improvement. But since you used the word "doubt" I'd be inclined to believe you haven't even read it, any of it. Who needs to get their head out of the sand? You read the email yet? You figure out who on the ASA said broke the confidentiality agreement yet? Crickets out of you on this one man.

Let's ask the guys who will be stuck on reserve that could hold lines if they are down with leaving a bunch of pairings in open time so others can improve their schedules!

Nice.......

Good point, let's ask those guys that can do BD/WD trades and move days off around, as well as use the APW while on reserve. For many, it's better than holding a crappy/junior line. If I was in unstack territory, doubt I'd be going for a hard line, I'd take long call any month with the QOL provisions that go along with it. And I commute.

 

[ASADriver]

And you couldn't be more ignorant, or more wrong, take your pick. XJT pilots value seniority, they ALSO value the ability of a junior line holder that gets a crappy schedule (can happen under EITHER line bid OR PBS) to have the ability to fix it. That doesn't happen with the current ASA PBS, especially when unstack is used. Some pilots love the ASA PBS, some hate it. As evidenced here or the face to face I have with ASA guys in IAD. How may XJT pilots don't like the line bid/work rules?

Ignorant? ME? Do you even know how PBS works? Pilots pick trips based on seniority and build their own lines vs. the company building those lines. The good trips are going to picked by the senior pilots. That is how the system works. You want to withold trips from those senior bidders and put them into an open time pot for junior pilots to improve their schedules. That will come at the expense of the senior pilots. No wonder you want a globalized based PBS system.

 

[dojetdriver]

Ignorant? ME?

Yep, you.

Do you even know how PBS works?

Yep, do you? Seems as if there's more than one ASA pilot that isn't fully aware of how PBS works.

Pilots pick trips based on seniority and build their own lines vs. the company building those lines. The good trips are going to picked by the senior pilots.

What happens when the credit window is high? Do they ALL get the "good trips"

You want to withold trips from those senior bidders and put them into an open time pot for junior pilots to improve their schedules.

Who said ANYTHING about withholding trips from senior bidders?

That will come at the expense of the senior pilots. No wonder you want a globalized based PBS system.

Again, ignorance. Read the report.

 

[sweptback]

Because the XJT CBA is better than the ASA CBA. I'll make you the offer AGAIN, let's compare side by side and see which one you'd rather have. And at a minimum, the XJT contract as far as work rules should be used as the STARTING point, NOT the ASA PBS. But if you want to get on your knees, surrender, and drink the kool aid like JoeMerchant, have at it brotha'

I'd rather not resort to personal insults here. We had a fairly informative thread going.

I'm also not trying to get wrapped around which contract is "better". Since neither one of us is on the JNC or MEC, our opinions on contract language are not really that important.

It's called a joint contract for a reason. Who cares where we came from -- we need to focus on where we want to be.