XJT MEC declares war on ASA pilots.

[JoeMerchant]

Again, ignorance. The XJT MEC has been researching PBS since 2008, when a BK filing was a possibility and the BK judge could have imposed it if it eer came to that. Can you show me where the XJT MEC is trying to push PBS on the XJT pilots? Do you have ANY emails of other form of communication that can back up that claim? I'd love to see it. You, and others are simply going on what was sound bit from a confidential executive session, NOTHING more.

XJT MEC resolution presented to the ASA MEC:

"resolve to seek cooperation and expertise of the ASA MEC to work together in exploring and developing work rules for Smartpref as a primary bidding system. If satisfactory work rules cannot be developed or the system cannot adequately function to the satisfaction of BOTH sides, EACH side will revert to its previous position on bidding systems"

 

[GeekMaster]

ASA PBS is not a concession. If it was, why do you think such an overwhelming majority of our pilots are ready to fight you to the bitter end to keep it. A globalizing PBS system with a single bid sheet of successively ranked pairings IS a concession and there is no way you're ever going to be able to develop work rules to make it give your pilots anything near the same quality of life they're used to.

Delta uses Navtech, a NON globalizing system. They are generally happy with it, though not as happy as we are with Prefbid. Virgin America uses prefbid and they are also happy with it. Continental, Comair, Skywest and many others use a globalizing system and they're NOT happy with it. See a trend here?

I know you're going to argue that this is a new system and is somehow different. But it ain't lookin' good so far.

On the other hand, a few work rule changes and prefbid can meet the xjt quality of life expectations. But that's not likely to happen since you guys have decided that "you're bigger so you're going to run the show and you're not going to accept prefbid no matter what because ASA likes it".

 

[dojetdriver]

XJT MEC resolution presented to the ASA MEC:

"resolve to seek cooperation and expertise of the ASA MEC to work together in exploring and developing work rules for Smartpref as a primary bidding system. If satisfactory work rules cannot be developed or the system cannot adequately function to the satisfaction of BOTH sides, EACH side will revert to its previous position on bidding systems"

Wow, great argument (rolleyes). What part of the word "exploring" means "being imposed"? How does the term "work together" translates into "declare war"?

ASA PBS is not a concession.

It is for the XJT side of the house. Again, you'r not reading/paying attention.

If it was, why do you think such an overwhelming majority of our pilots are ready to fight you to the bitter end to keep it.

Again, because PBS is better than the line bid system ASA had. but it's not better than the line bid system that XJT has. What's so hard to understand about that?

A globalizing PBS system with a single bid sheet of successively ranked pairings IS a concession and there is no way you're ever going to be able to develop work rules to make it give your pilots anything near the same quality of life they're used to.

On the other hand, a few work rule changes and prefbid can meet the xjt quality of life expectations. But that's not likely to happen since you guys have decided that "you're bigger so you're going to run the show and you're not going to accept prefbid no matter what because ASA likes it".

So you've read the report and seen all the research then?

 

[bigshooter107]

Kinda makes you wonder why the ASA management is growing the XJT side and not so much the ASA side.
Pretty sure this has to do with legacy xjet flying ERJs for continental and united vs crjs for delta. Our management does not have a lot to say about where growth lies when their are two different airplane types for two different customers....

 

[Nevets]

Ok, another thing that plays into the mix of this debate is that each pilot group comes from a known QOL thats dependent on each's contract. With that said, it's not hard to understand that IF the XJT side would go with PBS, the MECs would have to negotiate language to make it AT LEAST as good as current QOL, if not substantially better for just going through the pain of changing something that universally is liked by the pilots (our line bidding system and work rules and your PBS). Each MEC has to discern what they can get ratified and what they cannot get ratified. And I'm sure each has a line in the sand, XJT's being that the new contract cannot have any concessions. The XJT MEC, being reasonable, have been open minded enough, despite the pilot group, to look into ALL PBS systems, not just ASA's. In their opinion, the ASA PBS would be a concession to XJT (not ASA). And they concluded that IF they were to go with PBS, it would only be smartpref because that is the only system which "could" be made to at least maintain the same QOL.

Why should the company allow open time? Why should we have a system with globalization? Because both the pilots and the company want what they want. The XJT side would need open time (among other items) to be negotiated in order to at least maintain their current QOL (not take a concession) and the company wants globalization to make the lines more efficient. I gave two ideas as to how to mitigate the problem. What it comes down to, is the JNC going to be able to negotiate something from the company that will pass both MECs and the combined pilot group. XJT having larger numbers are going to have to be appeased, especially if they decide to go with PBS. If smartpref is the vehicle to do that, then I suspect that is what they'll go with.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Wow, great argument (rolleyes). What part of the word "exploring" means "being imposed"? How does the term "work together" translates into "declare war"?

Simple...Your side realized that your line bidding wouldn't survive....Instead of embracing a PBS system that works and is really the envy of every other PBS carrier out there, your side stomped it's feet and said if we can't get our way, then you can't either...So they came up with a PBS system that uses globalization and isn't in use by anyone....That is war...and it isn't being taken well on our side.

I don't think you fully understand the ASA pilot group...We have taken on management, we have taken on mainline MECs...and we have sued ALPA national....Unlike you, we have never voted for concessions. We aren't going to have a failing airline impose it's wants on us....You can stomp your feet all you want...We simply don't care....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Ok, another thing that plays into the mix of this debate is that each pilot group comes from a known QOL thats dependent on each's contract. With that said, it's not hard to understand that IF the XJT side would go with PBS, the MECs would have to negotiate language to make it AT LEAST as good as current QOL, if not substantially better for just going through the pain of changing something that universally is liked by the pilots (our line bidding system and work rules and your PBS). Each MEC has to discern what they can get ratified and what they cannot get ratified. And I'm sure each has a line in the sand, XJT's being that the new contract cannot have any concessions. The XJT MEC, being reasonable, have been open minded enough, despite the pilot group, to look into ALL PBS systems, not just ASA's. In their opinion, the ASA PBS would be a concession to XJT (not ASA). And they concluded that IF they were to go with PBS, it would only be smartpref because that is the only system which "could" be made to at least maintain the same QOL.

Why should the company allow open time? Why should we have a system with globalization? Because both the pilots and the company want what they want. The XJT side would need open time (among other items) to be negotiated in order to at least maintain their current QOL (not take a concession) and the company wants globalization to make the lines more efficient. I gave two ideas as to how to mitigate the problem. What it comes down to, is the JNC going to be able to negotiate something from the company that will pass both MECs and the combined pilot group. XJT having larger numbers are going to have to be appeased, especially if they decide to go with PBS. If smartpref is the vehicle to do that, then I suspect that is what they'll go with.

This is exactly why this merger isn't going to work and we need to stay separate. The ASA pilots will never support a globalized PBS system.....We are getting tired of the "we are bigger so that is the way it's going to be" attitude from you. We bought you and you were failing. We are the surviving carrier.

The only solution to this standoff is to petition the NMB for separate pilot groups and separate PWAs. We will not allow you to ram your views of "fair" down our throats...

 

[Nevets]

This is exactly why this merger isn't going to work and we need to stay separate. The ASA pilots will never support a globalized PBS system.....We are getting tired of the "we are bigger so that is the way it's going to be" attitude from you. We bought you and you were failing. We are the surviving carrier.

The only solution to this standoff is to petition the NMB for separate pilot groups and separate PWAs. We will not allow you to ram your views of "fair" down our throats...

What I'm trying to say is that both MECs have to deal with reality of what can and can't be ratified. The number comparison is just fact. The XJT side will have to be appeased more than the ASA side, especially since XJT has the better contract and we will not want to take a further concession. It wasn't meant as "we are bigger so we get what we want."

I don't know why any of this is a surprise to you. I told you in another thread that this is what would probably happen (speaking of smartpref). It's unfolding as predicted.

Anyway, I already mentioned two things that could mitigate globalization. But even if we do end up with globalization, what's wrong with that to make more efficient use of crews and stay cost competitive? After, it's you who always says that we have to play the game now that we don't have brand scope. Maybe this is just part of that? You should embrace it as a way of staying in business!

All kidding aside, the XJT side is going ahead with smartpref for relief/reserve lines. If it works, the company and the XJT MEC may pursue it. If it doesn't, I'm sure they will try to scrap it. In the end, it may take a change in the negotiating landscape to get a JCBA. That may take a long time. Which seems fine for everyone except management.

 

[79%N1]

Problem.....management now want this done yesterday! While I'm certain that is never going to happen, I'm as certain that no matter what finally is agreed upon, it can't be cheaper that the Skywest side, Pinnacle, GoJets, Mesa, PSA or CHQ in the bidding for an RFP. In that regard, I guess it doesn't matter how longit takes.

 

[ASADriver]

Show me where I correlated the two? Quote the post. I was talking about the ability to improve the junior line holders schedule (that can happen under BOTH line bid or PBS) with the trips that drop into open time due to conflict under the line bid system. It can be done under line bid, with PBS elimination of open time, that's not an option.

Show me were I said PBS creates conflict, quote the post where I said it does.

Line bidding isn't going to happen. Now, using PBS, how are you going to improve junior line holders line? Where is the open time going to come from to do that?

 

[ASADriver]

Exactly. Proof you do not understand how we "line" bid. Since you obviously have your head in the sand the term "line bidding" is just a term to define a system by which we bid. Bidding INTO conflict allows us to maximize vacation and so on, while PBS simply lays everything around it. Nice try though, watching you defend the ASA MEC and your inferior contract is amusing. Kinda makes you wonder why the ASA management is growing the XJT side and not so much the ASA side.

I fully understand BOTH systems. My question is how do you figure you are going to get open time to do LIW with PBS?

 

[Nevets]

Line bidding isn't going to happen. Now, using PBS, how are you going to improve junior line holders line? Where is the open time going to come from to do that?

With a work rule that says a certain percentage of trips are required to be left in open time. A similar amount that is left for our SLIW, which isn't a lot by the way. After all, isn't you guys that said its about the work rules anyway? This would most likely be required, otherwise it's a concession on the XJT side.

 

[nerjdriver]

I fully understand BOTH systems. My question is how do you figure you are going to get open time to do LIW with PBS?

We're not. Again not voting for PBS it is a concession I am not willing to give. Now if you give me 100% retro from the date of the XJT concession, plus a moderate raise, 2% more into retirement, equivalent work rules, better reserve rules, a 90 hour guarantee, cheaper and better medical insurance (than ASA and SKWY) then I may be interested. Ill pass on anything less.

 

[Freebrd]

We're not. Again not voting for PBS it is a concession I am not willing to give. Now if you give me 100% retro from the date of the XJT concession, plus a moderate raise, 2% more into retirement, equivalent work rules, better reserve rules, a 90 hour guarantee, cheaper and better medical insurance (than ASA and SKWY) then I may be interested. Ill pass on anything less.

D - R - E - A - M - E - R !!!

Or else them some good drugs you're on!

 

[79%N1]

We're not. Again not voting for PBS it is a concession I am not willing to give. Now if you give me 100% retro from the date of the XJT concession, plus a moderate raise, 2% more into retirement, equivalent work rules, better reserve rules, a 90 hour guarantee, cheaper and better medical insurance (than ASA and SKWY) then I may be interested. Ill pass on anything less.

Can we hand you the keys to a new BMW and a Wonka Golden Ticket, also?

 

[ASADriver]

With a work rule that says a certain percentage of trips are required to be left in open time. A similar amount that is left for our SLIW, which isn't a lot by the way. After all, isn't you guys that said its about the work rules anyway? This would most likely be required, otherwise it's a concession on the XJT side.

So you're going to withold good trips from senior bidders so that junior bidders can have a better schedule? YGTBSM! Don't you ExpressJet people understand how seniority works? Why don't we just do away with the seniority system?

 

[dojetdriver]

I don't think you fully understand the ASA pilot group...We have taken on management, we have taken on mainline MECs...and we have sued ALPA national....Unlike you, we have never voted for concessions. We aren't going to have a failing airline impose it's wants on us....You can stomp your feet all you want...We simply don't care....

I've told you more than once, the FOUR times I've voted on concession in my career, with two of those votes at XJT, I voted NO. But please, keep blathering on like a moron. You're pretty good at it. As far as how "tough" you think a certain pilot group is, I've heard MANY times that the ASA MEC accepted PBS WITHOUT fully reading/comprehending the language. Doen't sound very tough/militant to me.

Line bidding isn't going to happen. Now, using PBS, how are you going to improve junior line holders line? Where is the open time going to come from to do that?

I fully understand BOTH systems. My question is how do you figure you are going to get open time to do LIW with PBS?

With a work rule that says a certain percentage of trips are required to be left in open time. A similar amount that is left for our SLIW, which isn't a lot by the way. After all, isn't you guys that said its about the work rules anyway? This would most likely be required, otherwise it's a concession on the XJT side.

To expand on what Nevets says, it's about the work rules. Now, it depends on which side of the fence a pilot is on. Are they the "OMG OMG OMG, we have to get our knees and surrend to whatever the company wants and be cost competitive unless we'll all be out of a job tomorrow!!!!" Well, there's just no hope.

Or, as mentioned, work rule language. If a pilot finds themselves on the side that they want all they can get and all their seniority can hold, then, alter the 1's and 0's of the program. Whereas a vacation(s) and training dates are known before the bid closes. Pilot bids for trips that will conflict as they see fit, line is built. Vacation/training is "dropped" into awarded line, conflicting trips drop and fall to the next most junior bidder wanting said specific trips. Seniority for specific trips is protected on down the line. Would it create as much as the XJT ILIW? Nope, due to no transition conflict there wouldn't be as much. But again, along the lines what Nevets said, you'd have AT LEAST as much as the XJT SLIW does. Combine that with BD/WD and there'd be options for pilots that didn't get 100% of their preferences/first bid sheet, whatever.

 

[DHPFLYN]

Hey ASA pilots, What is your trip guarantee for a four day trip?

 

[NotTooBad]

This is exactly why this merger isn't going to work and we need to stay separate. The ASA pilots will never support a globalized PBS system.....We are getting tired of the "we are bigger so that is the way it's going to be" attitude from you. We bought you and you were failing. We are the surviving carrier.

The only solution to this standoff is to petition the NMB for separate pilot groups and separate PWAs. We will not allow you to ram your views of "fair" down our throats...

Coming from another ASA pilot.....SKYW bought them because ASA was failing..... Have you considered the possibility that the merger was a way to prevent ASA from going under?

 

[Jackie Moon]

Thats incorrect!! I have been here eight years and I held three on four off until Scott Hall came along and decided that three days weren't efficient. Don't revise history because you are to ignorant to use PBS effectively. I love PBS and I'm middle of the pack in IAD. If you're junior it sucks!! Doesn't matter if its PBS, line bidding, or a gang bang, you get the left overs.

Too means 'as well' or conveys the idea of 'in excess'.
To is a preposition (e.g., Give it to her.) or is used to show the infinitive form of a verb (e.g., I want to run.)

If you are gonna call someone ignorant you better know the difference between to and too

Back to my point without any personal insults.
I was a first officer for three years and held 3 on 4 off up until a few months before I upgraded (s.h. did away with them). This was probably when you upgraded. I was displaced shortly after and when I went back to f.o. I held 3 on 4 off for the next 2 years. Now I am very junior and on reserve so I am not messing up my bid I just can't hold anything. I used to get 4 3 days a month worth around 18 hours each = 72 hours or so. The credit window now is usually above 85 so my old trips wouldn't complete a schedule even if I could get them. There might not have been many 3 day trip lines but as a very senior f.o. I could hold them.