XJT MEC declares war on ASA pilots.

[Nevets]

So you're going to withold good trips from senior bidders so that junior bidders can have a better schedule? YGTBSM! Don't you ExpressJet people understand how seniority works? Why don't we just do away with the seniority system?

Where did I say that?

 

[ASADriver]

Where did I say that?

You said:
"With a work rule that says a certain percentage of trips are required to be left in open time."

 

[Nevets]

You said:
"With a work rule that says a certain percentage of trips are required to be left in open time."

You said, "So you're going to withold good trips from senior bidders so that junior bidders can have a better schedule?" In what language does, "With a work rule that says a certain percentage of trips are required to be left in open time" equate to what you insinuated I said? Sorry for the sarcasm but it's just that every time a possible solution is brought up, you guys make $hit up just because it doesn't agree with your assumptions. Trust me, as the person who wrote what you quoted,you are COMPLETELY wrong about your ridiculous interpretation!

 

[bigshooter107]

What percentage of trips or block hours? The whole point of any PBS system is to crew every possible pairing.

 

[Freebrd]

What percentage of trips or block hours? The whole point of any PBS system is to crew every possible pairing.

OK I'm ASA, and I think XJet pilots know that PBS tries to schedule as many if not all pairings as possible. I think they want a system that will have pairings created for trade and schedule enhancement AFTER the seniority pilots get theirs. Don't think BH and company will agree to that though. But nothing wrong with trying either.

 

[GeekMaster]

I think there is an extremely important piece of information missing here. This took ASA guys a while to get used to, but now they know it's true. The idea behind a good PBS system is to get you a schedule most suited to your likes THE FIRST TIME; within your seniority of course. Therefore, line improvement bidding becomes largely unnecessary. We have the open time windows, but there are probably more people picking up additional time than there are trading trips out.

 

[bigshooter107]

Every 3-4 pairings in open-time,is potentialy another full schedule for a guy that would have been on reserve.

 

[asayankee]

Every 3-4 pairings in open-time,is potentialy another full schedule for a guy that would have been on reserve.

PBS ALREADY does that without taking the extra step.

I also love how XJT's opposition to Flightline is that it on very rare occasions might not completely honor seniority...yet in the next breath they want a system that withholds pairings from the initial seniority bidding and puts them in a ILIW pot where whomever gets the computer first/quickest can improve their schedule the most. Doesn't make sense

 

[nerjdriver]

What percentage of trips or block hours? The whole point of any PBS system is to crew every possible pairing.

I really like that 3% of open time crew scheduling can hide. You guys let the company bend you over on absolutely everything. Its so ridiculous.

 

[nerjdriver]

PBS ALREADY does that without taking the extra step.

I also love how XJT's opposition to Flightline is that it on very rare occasions might not completely honor seniority...yet in the next breath they want a system that withholds pairings from the initial seniority bidding and puts them in a ILIW pot where whomever gets the computer first/quickest can improve their schedule the most. Doesn't make sense

Yea it doesn't have to i guess... we still don't want PBS

 

[nerjdriver]

D - R - E - A - M - E - R !!!

Or else them some good drugs you're on!

Nope just not a L - I - F - E - R. Better think of something other than PBS then! Until then my vote is NO, and I suspect more than enough of our 2700+ feel the same way. Enjoy ASA, the AWESOME SHRINKING AIRLINE

 

[nerjdriver]

Can we hand you the keys to a new BMW and a Wonka Golden Ticket, also?

Absolutely because this place isn't worth it any more. You guys are so brainwashed, do you honestly thing the pilots are going to bankrupt inc? What bodily fluid of Jerry, Chip, Brad and Charlie are you drinking and bathing in? This profession ended when RJ's showed up, the nails were put in the coffin when RJ pilots started negotiating contracts.

 

[sinkrate]

What percentage of trips or block hours? The whole point of any PBS system is to crew every possible pairing.

Depending on the pairings - there are typically a very small number of junk trips that, when forced on on the line holders, completely destroy the desireability of the junior lines. A good pbs system, administered by pilots, will not withhold any trips from bidding. Let each individual make his own choices. That is what PBS is about. What it will do is leave the left over junk that no one wants in open time. Now, some pilots will claim that that 'hoses' the reserves. The reality of PBS is that for it to benefit any pilot the entire pilot group must rethink what a reserve job is. Reserves become real reserves - not build up line holders with trips from open time. If collectively you can't do that you are going to screw everyone.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Absolutely because this place isn't worth it any more. You guys are so brainwashed, do you honestly thing the pilots are going to bankrupt inc? What bodily fluid of Jerry, Chip, Brad and Charlie are you drinking and bathing in? This profession ended when RJ's showed up, the nails were put in the coffin when RJ pilots started negotiating contracts.

No, we won't bankrupt Inc because they will shrink us or divest us prior to that.

 

[dojetdriver]

The idea behind a good PBS system is to get you a schedule most suited to your likes THE FIRST TIME; within your seniority of course.

Well, this is a good point. But what you're saying is "tough sh1t, you're junior, you get what you get. Weekends (etc) are not within you're seniority". In other words, whatever you get is NOT within in your seniority if you're too far down. With no recourse.

With line bid and XJT workrules, the SAME thing happens. Junior pilot gets what his seniority can hold, or what's "within your seniority". The DIFFERENCE is, the LIW's allow the pilot to change that/make it better. And they're NOT taking trips from anybody senior to them.

 

[Nevets]

I think there is an extremely important piece of information missing here. This took ASA guys a while to get used to, but now they know it's true. The idea behind a good PBS system is to get you a schedule most suited to your likes THE FIRST TIME; within your seniority of course. Therefore, line improvement bidding becomes largely unnecessary. We have the open time windows, but there are probably more people picking up additional time than there are trading trips out.

Here is an important point many don't get. I sometimes get exactly the line and trips I want from my initial bid. BUT sometimes somewhere along the road life happens and it no longer suits me because I need a certain day off, need a to start by a certain time, need to move my work days up a day, etc etc. Unless a certain percentage of trips (equivalent to what we have in our SLIW), then everyone is CEMENTED in their once perfect schedule. Sometimes I trade into a "junk trip" (that senior people didnt bid for) because of these types of situations. This is NOT largely unnecessary! If you actually understood our system, you would realize that anything else would be a further concession for XJT.

Like I've already said, there a few things that is affecting this debate whether we like it or not. For any PBS to be in the jcba, it's going to have to NOT be a concession for the XJT side for it to just have a CHANCE at ratification. The MECs have to operate under that reality and know which voting block is going to drive the outcome of ratification. Or wait however long to see if the negotiating climate changes in order to see if that equation favors a different set of realities.

I also love how XJT's opposition to Flightline is that it on very rare occasions might not completely honor seniority...yet in the next breath they want a system that withholds pairings from the initial seniority bidding and puts them in a ILIW pot where whomever gets the computer first/quickest can improve their schedule the most. Doesn't make sense

You are also making the assumption that trips would be withheld. Personally, I've never said that and would not even favor it. Please don't make strawman arguments and stick to what is actually being discussed or ask before assuming. Also, another thing I mentioned which is playing into this debate is the differences in culture, specifically the differences in the way each use seniority throughout their respective contracts.

 

[OCP]

Hey ASA pilots, What is your trip guarantee for a four day trip?

We have a min day of 3.86hrs per day. We have a 2:1 credit scheduled up to 12hrs then its 1:1. i.e. You have a scheduled 12 hr day you get paid 6 hrs. You have a 14 hr scheduled day you get 8 hrs. Max schedule is 14hrs. You get paid the greater of any of this. If you fly over the time you get paid that.
There is no specific guarantee for a 4 day trip.

 

[OCP]

Coming from another ASA pilot.....SKYW bought them because ASA was failing..... Have you considered the possibility that the merger was a way to prevent ASA from going under?

I don't know where you got that info, but it's completely wrong. ASA made tons of money. SKW bought us because Delta needed money for BK and SKW had it. They financed the deal and had ASA paid off in 2-3 years because of the money that ASA made. Look up the profits in the first few years after ASA was bought.
Was ASA run badly...? He!! yes, but it still made money.

 

[JoeMerchant]

What I'm trying to say is that both MECs have to deal with reality of what can and can't be ratified. The number comparison is just fact. The XJT side will have to be appeased more than the ASA side, especially since XJT has the better contract and we will not want to take a further concession. It wasn't meant as "we are bigger so we get what we want."

I don't know why any of this is a surprise to you. I told you in another thread that this is what would probably happen (speaking of smartpref). It's unfolding as predicted.

Both MECs do have to deal with the reality of what can and can't be ratified. The XJT PBS with globalization and the views your side has on seniority are DOA on this side....Therefor, there will not be a JCBA under these conditions.....That is the reality....

Anyway, I already mentioned two things that could mitigate globalization. But even if we do end up with globalization, what's wrong with that to make more efficient use of crews and stay cost competitive? After, it's you who always says that we have to play the game now that we don't have brand scope. Maybe this is just part of that? You should embrace it as a way of staying in business!

All kidding aside, the XJT side is going ahead with smartpref for relief/reserve lines. If it works, the company and the XJT MEC may pursue it. If it doesn't, I'm sure they will try to scrap it. In the end, it may take a change in the negotiating landscape to get a JCBA. That may take a long time. Which seems fine for everyone except management.

There will not be any "mitigating" globalization on this side. Your ideas of seniority won't fly on this side of the fence..period..end of discussion...You wouldn't believe the coalition of different beliefs over that are unified against your MEC on this issue. There are 3 of us very vocal people on the ALPA message boards that don't agree on ANYTHING, except this very issue...I will hand it to your MEC it has done more to unify us than anything....

Here is a question for you...Your pilots obviously don't want PBS in any form...So why is your MEC now pushing it? Why don't they just stick with your current system? I would rather have your current system than the PBS system your side is pushing...It has very few supporters...

 

[OCP]

To be clear you both are big bad voices on all these message boards, but to the rank and file, they know almost nothing about what either MEC is talking about. Joe is spouting a lot of "We"ness, but he really doesn't have any sort of majority to back it up. If you ask the majority of "ASA" they really don't know any of this. They like the system that we have, but don't know about anything that the XJT MEC is suggesting.
Part of that is because of the lack of communication on our MEC side.