Would you take the plane?

[777forever]

You're capt of CRJ200. Weather at destination is showing 200 ft ceilings and 1 1/2 mile vis. X-wind of 10 knts gusting to 15. Autopilot and flight director deferred. 380 nm flight. ILS fully operational on all runways. Would you take the airplane?

 

[Jar Jar]

You're capt of CRJ200. Weather at destination is showing 200 ft ceilings and 1 1/2 mile vis. X-wind of 10 knts gusting to 15. Autopilot and flight director deferred. 380 nm flight. ILS fully operational on all runways. Would you take the airplane?

Depends on the FO.

if I was working at PSA, then yes.

 

[CX880]

You're capt of CRJ200. Weather at destination is showing 200 ft ceilings and 1 1/2 mile vis. X-wind of 10 knts gusting to 15. Autopilot and flight director deferred. 380 nm flight. ILS fully operational on all runways. Would you take the airplane?

Are you frickign serious dude?? Oh the humanity! Do you at least have acars paper on board though????

 

[BOX OFFICE]

You're capt of CRJ200. Weather at destination is showing 200 ft ceilings and 1 1/2 mile vis. X-wind of 10 knts gusting to 15. Autopilot and flight director deferred. 380 nm flight. ILS fully operational on all runways. Would you take the airplane?

The question is are YOU the Captain? If not, then you only have two options:

1. Refuse to go. See your chief pilot. Hope he takes your side.
2. Go. Worst case scenario, you divert. Is the weather above the minimums at your destination? If so, then I assume your issue is no autopilot? Why does having no autopilot scare you? You flew airplanes for years with no autopilot... didn't you?

 

[Flying Illini]

Yes, I'd accept it.

 

[Cpt Oveur]

Isn't that what you're paid to do?

 

[sweptback]

I assume this happened to you today. How about you don't try to second-guess your Captain?

Once you upgrade, you will get to make the big decisions that I know you crave to make. When that happens I'm sure you'll appreciate your FOs calling you out on Flightinfo.

 

[701EV]

HELL NO! I wouldn't take that airplane! Tell them to send that one where its VFR and get you a working airplane. Two years ago the CP backed me up!

 

[ASABound]

No I would not take it based on the info you have presented. Lets say you get there and have a gear problem/no flap or some other high workload situation. not to mention weather conditions, etc. Now with that being said this is all circumstancial and there may be some cuicumstnaces or information not available here that could be a factor in the decision making process. Its really case dependent. No two flights are the same. In all honestly I dont think you would get any flack from the company for denying this one. Just tell them based on your appraisal of the situation that you do not agree with the release and there for cant accept it. The problem at ASA lies with the captains who dont have the balls to tell the company no.

 

[buscap]

You're capt of CRJ200. Weather at destination is showing 200 ft ceilings and 1 1/2 mile vis. X-wind of 10 knts gusting to 15. Autopilot and flight director deferred. 380 nm flight. ILS fully operational on all runways. Would you take the airplane?

Autopilot defered is cool.

Flight director defered is a no go for anything over 200 nm.

 

[JumpersAway]

I would be inclined to take the airplane. However, I will also say that I would be looking at the FO as well. Are they fresh off furlough with little experience, or are they seasoned? The Autopilot is a work load reducer- what happens if the stuff really hits the fan? The question then becomes, can you hand fly the airplane, manage the checklist, and work with the weather as a team? If the answer is yes, because you can depend on the guy next to you, then go.

Hand flying an airplane isn't an issue for me. How many people gripe about wanting to hand fly the RNAV out of Atlanta? What's the difference? Just one that is voluntary and that one is not. Quite honestly, I don't see a deferred auto pilot being a safety of flight concern- it's the workload associated with it that would be.

 

[CX880]

No I would not take it based on the info you have presented. Lets say you get there and have a gear problem/no flap or some other high workload situation. not to mention weather conditions, etc. Now with that being said this is all circumstancial and there may be some cuicumstnaces or information not available here that could be a factor in the decision making process. Its really case dependent. No two flights are the same. In all honestly I dont think you would get any flack from the company for denying this one. Just tell them based on your appraisal of the situation that you do not agree with the release and there for cant accept it. The problem at ASA lies with the captains who dont have the balls to tell the company no.

The only issue is the AP, there is no other issue at all. People run for the hills when the AP is inop. Here's an idea instead of monitoring the TV screens, you will actually be flying, you still have the other pilot to back you up in an emergency. Do your job.

 

[ASABound]

Swpt back that is totally uncalled for. You are the type that doesnt embrace good crm and the crew concept. If the FO doesnt feel comfortable with cause then I dont feel comfortable. We have some FANTASTIC copilots at this company. I dont think not being comfortable with accepting an airplane with this condition is "second guessing" his captain. I actually think due to the fact that he is bringing it up and thinking enough outside the box to think it may be an issue, speaks volumes for his ability and decision making process whether he is an FO or captain

 

[ASABound]

lets get this thread back on topic !!! MESA SUXXXXXXXX

 

[Metro752]

You're capt of CRJ200. Weather at destination is showing 200 ft ceilings and 1 1/2 mile vis. X-wind of 10 knts gusting to 15. Autopilot and flight director deferred. 380 nm flight. ILS fully operational on all runways. Would you take the airplane?

Heck yeah if everything was legal. Autopilot schmautopilot.

You could you see if there was a spare available before you launched.

 

[CX880]

Autopilot defered is cool.

Flight director defered is a no go for anything over 200 nm.

Why? OMG that little thing on the screen that tells me where to go is GONE! EJECT EJECT EJECT! I CAN't Reach the handle... I can't reach the HANDLE! I Can't reach the handle. GET CONTROL GET CONTROLLLL

 

[LHRCrewDog]

I would take the flight. There is nothing that is really dangerous about it. Not having an autopilot is a pain, but it is not too long of a flight. If the weather at the destination gets worse, you can go to the alt. Shooting that approach without an autopilot should be pretty standard. If you cannot make it in on the approach, then you can go-around and go to the alt. There is nothing that seems dangerous about this. If you are worried about fatigue, switch from PF to PNF during cruise.

Like I wrote, it is a pain, but it is our job.

Now if this was an approach at CRW at night with icing, high winds, low ceilings and breaking action less than good, I would not take it.

Eric Pogo

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I wouldnt take the plane. WTBFD?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Shooting an ILS on the 200 with a crosswind works better without the FD/AP....Watching it try to track the localizer is painful....

 

[Dannone]

I would love to see How many of you couldn't come close to flying down to minimums with no flight director!!! With a 15 knott crosswind? I have over 5,000 hours on the 200 and the stuff I've seen from mostly captains would make you puke!! I have definitely seen captains mess up way worse than FOs by the way. This is absolutely a no go situation. 1,000 foot ceilings or better no problem, but what if something else goes wrong??? There is no need to do this other than ego. Break the chain early and send that airplane to somewhere with better weather. How many places does the 200 even go over 200 miles anyway?

 

[Abernathy]

It's not the AP that is the issue, I have flown a few ships with deferred AP (and somehow, I always manage to get "assigned" that leg). It's the deferred FD that would be more concerning because I'm not sure that's exactly legal when being dispatched to an airport that is under heavy IFR.

 

[buscap]

Just not in the mood for a round trip like that. Legal? Yes. Gonna do it? No.

Last leg, coming back to ATL?? Yep.

 

[Beergut]

No I would not take it based on the info you have presented. Lets say you get there and have a gear problem/no flap or some other high workload situation. not to mention weather conditions, etc. Now with that being said this is all circumstancial and there may be some cuicumstnaces or information not available here that could be a factor in the decision making process. Its really case dependent. No two flights are the same. In all honestly I dont think you would get any flack from the company for denying this one. Just tell them based on your appraisal of the situation that you do not agree with the release and there for cant accept it. The problem at ASA lies with the captains who dont have the balls to tell the company no.

Ditto. Well said.:beer:

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Need more info. Is this leg 16 on Day 4 and you are worn out from the previous 3-4 days of flying? Have you been flying it already today, and are now getting pushed to your limits with the increased workload?

Winds 10, gusting to 15....won't that trigger the Wind Shear Advisories in ATL? If so, then you probably can't dispatch to begin with.

So which way did it go down? You took the plane when you thought you shouldn't, or you denied the plane and thought you should have gone?

 

[Freebrd]

Puss#@#s!!!!! Guess you'd whine if the FMS was deferred too eh

 

[sinkrate]

You're capt of CRJ200. Weather at destination is showing 200 ft ceilings and 1 1/2 mile vis. X-wind of 10 knts gusting to 15. Autopilot and flight director deferred. 380 nm flight. ILS fully operational on all runways. Would you take the airplane?

1-Can the flight be completed within the limitations of your company MEL? The master MEL would not limit this flight in this weather. Many 121 operators take into consideration the lack of crew experience and have much more conservative limitations in their MELS for a deferred FD
2-Of course no RVSM, RNAV departures or arrivals. That is usually much more limiting for dispatch than the weather. Prior to RVSM regs flight all the way up to and level at F410 was allowed with no AP or FD. A long leg in a CRJ was a pain in the ass, but done regularly.
3-Is the CA a baby CA? For the 200 foot ceiling dispatch might swap CA's for someone who is off high mins

The point is use your company manuals and answer this question - can the flight be completed within the manual limitations? If it can - take it. Don't let your 'judgment' get in the way of a sound decision. If you are afraid of the flight then you might think about removing yourself from it. Some old school CA's that flew 6,7 and 8 leg days for years on end in AC with no AP installed might make that decision for you.

CRM is good to a point. However it does assume you have a broadly experienced aviator sitting next to you. When you don't it can work against safety. One pilot has seen the situation a hundred times before and knows exactly what to do. The pilot sitting next to him has no clue and is afraid. At that point CRM can result in distractions and compromises that degrade safety quickly. Particularly if it is a high work load and time critical situation.

 

[ackattacker]

Sounds like you're looking for justification for a decision already made. Man up. Either go or don't, decision made, move on. Don't come here looking for second opinions.

 

[SLUF4]

Like others have said, it depends on some more factors. Is this a high workload airport like LGA or ORD, or is it DHN? Are there any unusual NOTAMS that could affect the decision? Also what is the experience level of the FO and what are his or her skills like?

 

[LearLove]

not having said crj200's company MEL so I assume it is legal to fly with both the AP and FD MELd. Also assuming the crew is rested, not new ect....

Given that, always leave yourself a way out. In this case your way out is your alternate which will have at worse 600 and 2 (or 800 and 2 depending on the app). If you can't get it on the ground with 600 and 2 with winds then you need to find another line of work.

I do like the suggestion of swapping the a/c sending the mel'd AP/FD jet to a VFR airport and taking a AP/FD working jet to the WX airport if it possible.

All in all I don't see what the big deal is. As long as it is legal and no other issues compounding the problem (duty time, crew exp., ect.). Some of us around here flew 135 day/night in all wx with no AP/FD and had no problems.

 

[the palm]

Depends on who my FO is....seriously.