"..With You.."

[FlyChicaga]

http://www.aviationspeakers.com/Speakers/Dave-Gwinn.html

Watch the video. Probably really fitting for the thread!

[nerd]

I try my best to use standard phraseology, particularly in Mexico and Canada. Sometimes you can get lax though; it happens. I think more important than what you say is how you say it though... lately I've heard some terrible mumbling, where you are sitting there thinking to yourself, "WTF did he just say?"

I am always impressed by ATC. 95% of the time, they are clear, concise, and use proper phraseology. Plus, 80% of the time they are 100 times more quick witted than we pilots will ever be!

After studying human factors, and taking some courses related to communication (one taught by a former Finnish ATCer), I've seen the light in regards to proper phraseology. Both in communication between crew and ATC.

Twice in the past six months I've seen situations where someone has answered for our aircraft with a "roger" without callsign, which quite possibly could have turned into a runway incursion. Once we were number two for departure, and ATC asked us if we were ready. I said "affirmative" and gave our callsign. We were cleared into position and hold. We began to taxi across the hold short lines, and the captain and I both said "wait" at the same time, since the airplane in position wasn't moving. Then we were given takeoff clearance, and I hesitated a second to respond. The aircraft in position then responded WITH OUR CALLSIGN for takeoff clearance, and departed. I immediately queried ATC, stating that someone just answered for us, we were halfway across the hold short lines, confim we are in position and hold. ATC seemed confused, and then cleared us again into position. Then they told the other aircraft, using its proper callsign, to contact departure.

Case two: We were taxiing in CLE, and were told to hold short of 24L at Sierra. Another airline had just pulled off the gates behind us. ATC asked us if we were ready for departure. The other aircraft said "roger." We were then cleared to "expedite across 24L, hold short 24R" since there was an aircraft on close final for 24L. The other aircraft then responded with the crossing and hold short instruction FOR US, again with no callsign. We just held our position short of the runway, and told ATC we were holding short, there seems to be confusion since someone else is responding for us. Luckily we were blocking the other aircraft from crossing.

Rip on me all you want, but Captain7 does have a point. Lax phraseology is just the beginning in a major breakdown in communication. Which could have dire consequences. I'm sure others have similar experiences.

[/nerd]

 

[Fly_Chick]

And while we're at it, lets drop the phrase "any chance" when requesting something. Just request it, it's not a bookie joint.
QUOTE]

I hear "any chance" all the time. Why not just request it? You either get it or you don't. It sounds like begging. I never thought of it as a bookie joint. Will think of it that way moving forward.

I especially love to hear the ATIS reporting runway 25 in use, then someone comes up with "any chance we can get the ILS 7?". Especially when there are 4 VFR flights in the pattern and 3 IFR flights shooting the LOC 25 BC.

 

[ivauir]

I actually agree with your point and there are countless other examples. But your delivery needs a little work. Consider it CRM outside of the cockpit - people don't like to be called dumb. Besides, before you call people dumb, I'd make sure your command of your mother tongue was a little stronger.

It is very redundant .

You cannot modify a superlative. It is not possible for something to be "very redundant". It is either redundant or it is not. The same rule applies to "unique" - that one drives me crazy! How can something be "very one of a kind"?

There is no need to add the addendum

I suppose this is "very redundant" too. Although what do you propose one do win an addendum? Subtract it?

Your point has some validity, folks should review AIM every now and then. But I can't help wonder, how do you read back altitudes or radio frequencies? AIM is specific on this phraseology, but for the most part only controllers follow it. When you switch frequencies do you make the switch as soon as the numbers are set or do you pause to give the controller a chance to correct your read back? Often the pilots who are least tolerant of other's bad habits have some real dozzies themselves.

 

[TonyC]

---------------------------------------
.....three three oh.
----------------------------------------

Reminds me...what's the deal with the "oh's"? It's "zero". Try flying in some other parts of the world and use "oh" instead of zero and you might get an earful.

Oh, sure, rail all over folks for "with ya" and "oh", but you'll let "three" slide for "tree"?!?!? What a hypocrite.

I tell ya, standardized lingo has really gone down the tubes theses days.
















.

 

[Fly_Chick]

Twice in the past six months I've seen situations where someone has answered for our aircraft with a "roger" without callsign, which quite possibly could have turned into a runway incursion.

The other aircraft said "roger."
[/nerd]

Roger. I will not let any of my primary students use the word "Roger". I have them look up the defintion in the pilot controller glossary. My interpretation to them is if the say "Roger" they are saying "I have heard everything you said, I understand everything you said, I will comply with everythig you said, and I alleviate you from any responsibility and I take full responsibility for every thing I do."

Most of the time when the student says "Roger" he/she has missed half the transmission and is just saying it as he/she has heard it elsewhere on the radios. When I ask them what they are expected to do, they typically cannot fully comply nor repeat back the instructions.

I am with FlyChicaga and Captain 7 on this one.

 

[CapnVegetto]

OH MY GAWD!!! There is actually an entire 3 page thread on this stupid subject? I have an idea....WHO THE F-CK CARES??????? If some guy wants to say 'with you' on the dam radios, I could give two tenth's of a flying rat's a$$!! Some of you people really need to get laid. Hell, I'll ask for football scores on center, who won the golf tournament, geez, I remember one night I had a full blown conversation with some controller at MEM center because we were bored and I was the only one on his scope.

Captain 7, take off your Ray Bans, put them in your $500 leather flight case, slip on your wannabe bomber jacket, and GO DRINK A F-ING BEER AND GET A BJ!! If something like 'with you' bothers you that much, you serously need to get a life.

 

[FL717]

Was this wrong??

The other morning I had a controller ask me "What is your ride like". I was tempted to say "its a 1999 Oldsmobile....... how about yours". But I didn't.

Instead I exercised restraint and correctly said "Well.....the seat belt sign is off".

Was that proper AIM verbage?

 

[mckpickle]

I bet your a joy to spend four days with.

It is very redundant and dumb to ever use the phrase "with you" in your radio transmission to an ATC controller. He certainly realizes that you are "with him" by the mere fact you are speaking to him! It is such a student pilot phrase yet an incredible number of professional pilots use that useles pathetic phrase and waste radio time with it. Pay attention to how often you hear it and think how dumb it is each time. I especially like it when a pilot emphasizes the 'you' part in "with you"...as if he could possibly be talking to someone else and the phrase clears up any misunderstanding (but how would anyone know??) And while we're at it, lets drop the phrase "any chance" when requesting something. Just request it, it's not a bookie joint.

Also - if ATC asks for your speed, just tell him. If he needs to change it, he'll certainly tell you. There is no need to add the addendum "...what do you need?"

Thanks.

 

[mckpickle]

........ when I hear "Daytona Departure,......................


I am laughing so hard now, did not need to say another word... my initial point was very well taken.

Daytona..........ah riddle. Now that explains your post. Say no more.

BTW is it common these days to laugh at your students? In my old age I must have forgoten that...um......
technique.

 

[mckpickle]

Roger. I will not let any of my primary students use the word "Roger". I have them look up the defintion in the pilot controller glossary. My interpretation to them is if the say "Roger" they are saying "I have heard everything you said, I understand everything you said, I will comply with everythig you said, and I alleviate you from any responsibility and I take full responsibility for every thing I do."

Most of the time when the student says "Roger" he/she has missed half the transmission and is just saying it as he/she has heard it elsewhere on the radios. When I ask them what they are expected to do, they typically cannot fully comply nor repeat back the instructions.

I am with FlyChicaga and Captain 7 on this one.

AHRRRRRRRRRR


I can't wait for the rest of the flightinfo family to wake up and take a crack at you. I bet you read the FAR/AIM while taking a crap!

 

[CapnVegetto]

AHRRRRRRRRRR


I can't wait for the rest of the flightinfo family to wake up and take a crack at you. I bet you read the FAR/AIM while taking a crap!

Oh of course, don't you know that in order to get a riddle diploma, you have to be able to quote the FAR's every single page word for word?

Every riddle head I've ever met is a ray ban wearing, bomber jacket having, polo shirt tucking, flight instructor ephilet wearing, leather flightcase to a 172 carrying, FAR quoting, DORK!!!!

 

[jetblue320]

My personal favorites are the hoards of pilots all chiming in to respond to a "stuck mic".......

Everyone has to get the word out ya know....unfortunately, the only one who can't hear you is the fool with the stuck mic....he has a stuck mic!!! (that's microphone by the way).

Oh, and what about "blocked" ????

I have counted up to seven responses of "blocked" which continue to step on the poor slob who was blocked to begin with. It's really hard to get a word in sometimes with all the chatter already, but getting blocked out by some fool saying "blocked" over and over is a riot!!



All good stuff guys, thanks for the pointers.

C yaaaa

 

[Huck]

Let me give you a hypothetical: you're booming in at redline minus 5 into a VERY busy hub. The overworked center controller gives you a quick, "Expect a 15 mile final."

Now, he's doing you a courtesy - helping you with your descent planning. It would also be courteous for you to stay the he!! off his freq as much as possible. So what's wrong with using "Roger"? NOT to acknowledge a clearance, but to answer some ancilliary communication?

Oh, and to the guy with "lots" of experience, I bet you thought that CRM class was a waste of time, didn't you?

 

[ERfly]

The Air Force had you respond with "On to hold"...that is what I think you are hearing.

So you're telling me that all of these CHQ/Comair/ASA/Colgan/Hell even Our F/Os are ex-fighter jocks?! Wow! I am way underqualified!!

 

[Bandit60]

Can I use the phrase "checking on at", or is that going to put alot of you anal pilots into a tissie.

 

[VVJM265]

Captain 7,

Have to jump in and offer my 2 cents on this one, but the original post really is small stuff. With 21,000 hrs, I truly hope you have some international time, otherwise you are missing out on some great “non-standard” calls. Maybe because I’ve spent 2 tours in Italy, I find that phrases like “with you,” “checking-in,” “good afternoon,” “ciao,” etc. make comms a bit more civil. In London, where you will get a handoff about every 90 sec, the controllers will still respond with “cheers,” in you take the extra 3 sec to insert a cordiality. Even Saturday, the guy working Atlanta asked us if Treasure Island was closed because he used to be stationed there.

What is important, IMHO, is too get the numbers right. We had a crew doing a practice NDB approach at night to Zadar, a small field on the Croation coast. Approach called an altimeter of “0992” (0992 mB) and the crew read back “altimeter 2992.” The helmet fire began to smolder and three times they asked “confirm altimeter 2992,” “affirmative, 992” was the reply. The difference comes out to 435’ low! Fortunately they realized the error when they crossed checked the radalt.

On the humorous side, I’ve heard: “Ciao bella” as the Napoli controller flirts w/ my female copilot on the handoff to Roma; “Navy531, whatever you want, it’s OK with us,” while doing practice approaches at Pescara; “NavyMS503, cotton, daw on da wonwaaay,” (…caution, dogs on the runway) from U’Tapaho tower, etc. Never actually heard this one, but the story goes a crew report “light rock activity” as they tooled around Mt. Etna VFR; yes they torn up the airplane…

My all-time favorite funny though was back as a new LT when I was flying with a senior LCDR. Waiting for 15+ min in the baking July sun on the ramp at Naples for start clearance to go home to Sig after 5 legs already. Ground finally calls us back and my aircraft commander starts shouting “YEAH, BRAVO, BRAVO, YEAH!” Being young and stupid, I hold the mic over and click the switch… An Alitalia guy comes up and asks “What the hell is going on?,” to which ground replies “Somebody must be drunk!” We laughed our behinds off the whole way home.

Keep it in perspective, just my 2 cents…

 

[DiamondZ]

Roger. I will not let any of my primary students use the word "Roger". I have them look up the defintion in the pilot controller glossary. My interpretation to them is if the say "Roger" they are saying "I have heard everything you said, I understand everything you said, I will comply with everythig you said, and I alleviate you from any responsibility and I take full responsibility for every thing I do."

Most of the time when the student says "Roger" he/she has missed half the transmission and is just saying it as he/she has heard it elsewhere on the radios. When I ask them what they are expected to do, they typically cannot fully comply nor repeat back the instructions.

I am with FlyChicaga and Captain 7 on this one.

Your definition for 'Roger' sounds like the definition for 'Wilco'...heard, understand, will comply. As an instructor, you shouldnt limit your students just because they are not being taught the proper terminology.

 

[BoilerUP]

So explain to me what's so wrong with asking for an instrument approach to a runway that isn't in use? At many airports, they can easily accomodate you by breaking you off on a 1 or 2 mile final. Worst thing they can say is "unable", so what have you lost?

I'm used to having an airplane on the ILS to one runway, another airplane on a GPS approach to the opposite runway, while a third airplane is on a VOR-A with four in the pattern doing landings. If you can't deal with it, go somewhere else! You're a pilot - as such, you should be flexible and situationally aware enough to ask for something if you want and/or need it. Especially as a CFI.

"Indy Center, XXXXX twenty-six seven for three three oh, good morning". Guess I'm wrong because I didn't say INDIANAPOLIS, said three instead of TREE, oh instead of ZERO, and used that oh-so-fopah salutation at 0630 on the way to Dulles...

Some of you must have been that guy that wouldn't accept the congested airport LAHSO in your Baron (or worse, 172) because you *only* had 4000 ft of runway to stop with

 

[jobear]

Go Wee hawks! (or whatever it was that Rodger at Chicago center used to say!"

Sporting Wood on 7 left!

Rodger was in a class all by himself, I know of atleast ten people who tried to get the last word in and never could . Some of the best ATC chats I had was talking to him or listening to him shoot the breeze with the other early morning freight dawgs.
We had a Christmas card from him up in our crewroom in MKE but I think he came in and took it back after everyone said the dogs were nice but who was the old fartknocker with them.

Jobear

 

[CapnVegetto]

Captain 7,

Have to jump in and offer my 2 cents on this one, but the original post really is small stuff. With 21,000 hrs, I truly hope you have some international time, otherwise you are missing out on some great “non-standard” calls. Maybe because I’ve spent 2 tours in Italy, I find that phrases like “with you,” “checking-in,” “good afternoon,” “ciao,” etc. make comms a bit more civil. In London, where you will get a handoff about every 90 sec, the controllers will still respond with “cheers,” in you take the extra 3 sec to insert a cordiality. Even Saturday, the guy working Atlanta asked us if Treasure Island was closed because he used to be stationed there.

What is important, IMHO, is too get the numbers right. We had a crew doing a practice NDB approach at night to Zadar, a small field on the Croation coast. Approach called an altimeter of “0992” (0992 mB) and the crew read back “altimeter 2992.” The helmet fire began to smolder and three times they asked “confirm altimeter 2992,” “affirmative, 992” was the reply. The difference comes out to 435’ low! Fortunately they realized the error when they crossed checked the radalt.

On the humorous side, I’ve heard: “Ciao bella” as the Napoli controller flirts w/ my female copilot on the handoff to Roma; “Navy531, whatever you want, it’s OK with us,” while doing practice approaches at Pescara; “NavyMS503, cotton, daw on da wonwaaay,” (…caution, dogs on the runway) from U’Tapaho tower, etc. Never actually heard this one, but the story goes a crew report “light rock activity” as they tooled around Mt. Etna VFR; yes they torn up the airplane…

My all-time favorite funny though was back as a new LT when I was flying with a senior LCDR. Waiting for 15+ min in the baking July sun on the ramp at Naples for start clearance to go home to Sig after 5 legs already. Ground finally calls us back and my aircraft commander starts shouting “YEAH, BRAVO, BRAVO, YEAH!” Being young and stupid, I hold the mic over and click the switch… An Alitalia guy comes up and asks “What the hell is going on?,” to which ground replies “Somebody must be drunk!” We laughed our behinds off the whole way home.

Keep it in perspective, just my 2 cents…

Dude, you're absolutely right!! Go down in the Carribbean and talk to San Juan center. If you don't say 'good morning', or 'good afternoon' at the beginning of the first transmission, they won't even talk to you.