Will The AirTran Pilots' Windfall Be A Consideration?

[Tanker Clown]

This is so funny, Judge TankerClown weighs in . . . :laugh:

TC, the first thing that you hear when you contact a knowledgeable Trial Lawyer about anything to do with RLA (something you haven't worked under) is that you need to address your question specifically in terms of RLA law, using RLA attorneys. I doubt very much that your esteemed Judge Tankerclown presides over RLA cases, and probably qualified his comments thusly. Unless, of course, there is no Judge Tankerclown . . . .

Does Judge Tankerclown not know the difference between "counsel" and "council"?

The way this usually goes down is that the SWA side will pick a judge and the AT side will pick a judge (with the help of their councel). Then the 2 judges will get together and pick a third. Having a history with the RLA isn't necessarily something that is considered essential to being an arbitrator. They aren't illiterate, so they can always read it. Same goes with the Bond act.

Sorry smart guy, but I do know what I'm talking about here. It's because of ignorance (and lack of intelligence...or a criminal rap sheet) that's caused you to be attached to a glorified regional jet outfit.

 

[vixin]

Actually, Chief, your statement shows you really know very little about AirTran Pilots, our pay system, or much of anything else. It's no wonder you seem surprised when AirTran Pilots bristle at your comments.

We had many CA's making well into the mid $200's under our old 2001 contract. Some of our most junior CA's, who were on reserve were making the numbers you are spewing.

Maybe you ought to pick up the phone, and call some of your SWAPA guys for some real info, instead of just spewing your nonsense on FI.

Well said Dash. Most likely true. Well TY we have CA here making in excess of $400,000 and some FO's making in excess of $300,000. So what is your point? I think the above is about the normal flying pilots not the trip players. Again you arent bright enough to see. Sad really.

 

[Ty Webb]

I have seen pilots like Ty before. He is the guy who penciled whip his logbook where others put their fair time in paying their dues.

I guess that is why I paid my dues in the 90's by flying piston twins and corporate jets, instead of just paying one of the regionals $6K in PFT money to avoid paying my dues. :laugh:

He is the guy who would cross a line if he felt it was to his advantage. He is the guy that would sell his FO out to save his ticket. He is the guy who think it is fair to be senior to someone who has put five more years in the same job.

Yeah, that's why I have served as a Union volunteer for most of my 9 years here, so I could "cross the line". That's why I spent hundreds of hours of my own time (and a few thousand bucks, too) trying to help our Pilots who may have gotten in trouble with management over Union activities. . . . Because I don't care about my fellow pilot, and care only about money.

Man, do you have a lot of growing up to do. :erm:

 

[Kharma Police]

Well said Dash. Most likely true. Well TY we have CA here making in excess of $400,000 and some FO's making in excess of $300,000. So what is your point? I think the above is about the normal flying pilots not the trip players. Again you arent bright enough to see. Sad really.

I heard one cartel guy in PHX made, $1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.99 last year and he had twenty five days off every month!

 

[Dash Power]

Man, do you have a lot of growing up to do.

Ironically, that is a very immature response.

We all know you think highly of yourself Ty. You don't need to try and present your nameless resume on an anonymous forum. (I got a chuckle on your attempt though)

Generally people just don't change. So if you think it is fair to be senior to someone who has put in more time, you likely would think it fair with other issues that most all do not. Pretty basic psychology.

 

[Kharma Police]

Ironically, that is a very immature response.

We all know you think highly of yourself Ty. You don't need to try and present your nameless resume on an anonymous forum. (I got a chuckle on your attempt though)

Generally people just don't change. So if you think it is fair to be senior to someone who has put in more time, you likely would think it fair with other issues that most all do not. Pretty basic psychology.

Removed

 

[Ty Webb]

Ironically, that is a very immature response.

We all know you think highly of yourself Ty. You don't need to try and present your nameless resume on an anonymous forum. (I got a chuckle on your attempt though)

Look, guy, I know you are brand-new on FI, but many of us long-timers here know each other. It's not nearly as anonymous as you think.

I don't try to analyze you, or tell you what you should expect from the merger or SLI, yet you seem to think that you should tell me what to settle for, so, yes, I would say you do have a lot of growing up to do.

 

[Ty Webb]

The way this usually goes down is that the SWA side will pick a judge and the AT side will pick a judge (with the help of their councel). Then the 2 judges will get together and pick a third.

Not true. You really have no idea what you are talking about, why do you keep commenting?

What happens is the two unions get together and decide the process. They can decide to have up to three. Then, the arbitrator(s) will be chosen from a list of RLA arbitrators via the agreed-upon process.

 

[Dash Power]

Ty,

You have got me all wrong. I am humbled by your impressive expertise and long time experience on anonymous forums. A skill I am sure your family is very proud of. I have only been a member since 2006. I am nothing to you. I will always respect your Flightinfo.com (I have not been here long enough to use the acronym "FI" yet) seniority.

No one is telling you anything! You are telling everyone else! And it is a foregone conclusion that no matter how this pans out, you are going to be disgruntled. But don't worry. You will not be alone. Although your future employer SWA (you are not on the list yet so you do not have the position to use that acronym) is a wonderful place to fly airplanes, we do have a small select group that you will belong to.

Don't worry Tyrone, you will have a special place.

 

[General Lee]

Face it PALS, SWA pilots on this board are nervous. They are already asking "what is in this for me?" Guess what? Probably not much. Same with the DL/NWA merger. The DL pilots got a fairly small raise and some stock, and that was about it for "extras." The NWA pilots got a larger raise overall. And, the Airtran guys just got a new contract, designed to be "closer" to the SWA contract, at least in the eyes of the future arbitrator(s). Just think though, your company will be stronger, and now you might be able to fly outside of the contiguous 48 states, along with ATL and DCA flights. HOW FANTASTIC FOR YOU!!!! PEACE OUT, BROS!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Ty Webb]

Don't worry Tyrone, you will have a special place.

Yup. The same place I was in before the announcement. As the law is designed to provide.

 

[PapaWoody]

Yup. The same place I was in before the announcement. As the law is designed to provide.

I think you need to read the law again. If it was designed to award relative seniority in every case, then it would have specified relative seniority as the method of integration. It didn't, instead opting to require a "fair and equitable" integration of seniority lists, to be driven by situation-dependent factors. In this case, imho, relative seniority would not be fair nor equitable.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

 

[swa737-700]

Hey Red,

You guys have a great contract. I congratulate SWAPA pilots for achieving that. I say this with zero sarcasm.

The one hitch I can see in your calculations is this; There are no nine year FO's at AirTran. The nine year pilots at AirTran have been Captains for the last 6 to 6.5 years.

Cheers.

Well that will change even IF DOH is awarded. Seniority is seniority.

 

[vixin]

I heard one cartel guy in PHX made, $1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.99 last year and he had twenty five days off every month!

Thanks you helped me prove a point with Ty. With another well thought mature post from a tranny.

I actually saw the Dec. paystub of the CA over $400,000. He works his butt off. Thats not for me.

 

[Ty Webb]

PW, . . . "Fair and Equitable" means something different to you than me. Money is not as important to me as it is to you. You think your present pay rates should buy my seat and/or relative seniority. I don't.

Let's just agree to disagree and let the MEC's decide it.

 

[Ty Webb]

Well that will change even IF DOH is awarded. Seniority is seniority.

You, sir, are likely to be among the most disappointed.

 

[PapaWoody]

PW, . . . "Fair and Equitable" means something different to you than me. Money is not as important to me as it is to you. You think your present pay rates should buy my seniority. I don't.

Let's just agree to disagree and let the MEC's decide it.

I'm not trying to buy your seniority with our contract, I'm just pointing out that it would be unfair for your "seniority" to disregard my longevity.

Agreed on the agree to disagree, and that F&E will mean different things to different people. (Probably why they didn't define it as relative seniority )

PW

 

[ivauir]

Yup. The same place I was in before the announcement. As the law is designed to provide.

I don't try to ... tell you what you should expect from the merger or SLI

Ty,

Please reconcile your statements. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth and it is hardly constructive.

It is clear that you take every opportunity to post comments like the first one in some bizarre attempt to affect opinion on a message board. Let's talk facts and leave the posturing behind:

The law provides for "Fair and Equitable", specific solutions are NOT defined. In fact there are examples where-in relative seniority and even seat positions were lost. I would not go as far as to compare our situation to those cases, because, unlike you I wish to honor the M+A request not to discuss the SLI. Nothing good will come from such a discussion.

 

[Kharma Police]

Thanks you helped me prove a point with Ty. With another well thought mature post from a tranny.

I actually saw the Dec. paystub of the CA over $400,000. He works his butt off. Thats not for me.

It was tongue in cheek. Seriously, do you guys sit around and compare each others paychecks all the time? I've seen it almost on every occasion when I'm around you guys even before September 27th. Is it a nouveau riche thing? I was raised to not talk about money around mixed company but I guess it beats talking about religion or politics...........

 

[Ty Webb]

In fact there are examples where-in relative seniority and even seat positions were lost.

Between two profitable, growing companies with similar fleet types? Pray, do tell.

 

[Ty Webb]

Is it a nouveau riche thing? I was raised to not talk about money around mixed company

Uh-huh . . . :laugh:

 

[General Lee]

Between two profitable, growing companies with similar fleet types? Pray, do tell.

Ty,

These SWA guys just can't see it. Regardless of what you type, they won't believe it. Your two companies are both similar, with similar plane types and game plans. (LCCs) SWA is larger and pays more, but that was the same with DL and NWA, and guess what? It was pretty much relative seniority. Throw in some fences, and I have a feeling you will stay Captain. And, arbitrators will eventually figure out the SLI, regardless of what Chase or others say about trying to do it inhouse. Letting a "neutral" do it is the only fair way, and your lawyers will do the fighting for you. Just remember to tell the SWA guys "hey, it was just business. No hard feelings." I still expect the top 300-400 spots to go all SWA, and then relative after that.

Regardless, EVERY SWA AND AT PILOT IS AWESOME. Keep rocking it!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[ivauir]

Between two profitable, growing companies with similar fleet types? Pray, do tell.

Ty,

Is this really a constructive exercise?

Do you really want to compare profitability? Would you like to argue about the "similarity" of the fleets? Comparing your mostly 717 fleet to our fleet might not be a path that favors your case friend. But it is especially apropos with the 800 coming. What about the the relative health of our companies?

We could site SLI awards and debate their comparison to our corporations. The truth is that this case is different than any before, but your argument morphs from one set of criteria (no one has ever lost their seat) to another (no one like ME has ever lost their seat).

I believe we should respect the process instead of waving around proposals that others may find offensive. I have never offered what I think a fair solution would be, and I bristle every time anyone does. But you take it so far as to posture your opinion as fact and you mock all who offer a different perspective. It is getting old.

Interesting that you ignored the meat of my post. Nice dodge.

Please reconcile your statements.

 

[Cometman]

Between two profitable, growing companies with similar fleet types? Pray, do tell.

That might be correct but you have to consider the size. AAI is a small regional airline and SWA is a large major airline. You only have 100+ aircraft and SWA has what 550+ aircraft. You have 1700 pilots and SWA has close to what 6000. What a difference. Why didn't you mention these things. Oh I know, it doesn't matter. Just the things you thing will matter.

 

[vixin]

Sorry KP I didnt get the tongue in cheek. Just countering your brotha TY.

 

[Ty Webb]

That might be correct but you have to consider the size. AAI is a small regional airline and SWA is a large major airline. You only have 100+ aircraft and SWA has what 550+ aircraft. You have 1700 pilots and SWA has close to what 6000. What a difference. Why didn't you mention these things. Oh I know, it doesn't matter. Just the things you thing will matter.

Too funny, and entirely typical of the arguments I see on here.

AAI has been a major airline, as defined by the DOT, for years. We serve the same number of cities as SWA, btw. And our 717 are about the same as your -500's in an all-coach config.

Funny, I see all the Delta guys on here calling you guys a regional, too, since you have only SNB aircraft that only fly domestic. How does that feel? :laugh:

Since when did a fleet of 138 aircraft and 50 orders become "100 aircraft"? Are you that uninformed, or did you just lop off a third of our fleet because your point was weak? Also, did I mention that our orders are for fleet growth, while GK says that yourse are for replacement aircraft?

Blah, blah, blah, I can keep this crap going as long as you can. :laugh:

 

[Cometman]

Too funny, and entirely typical of the arguments I see on here.

AAI has been a major airline, as defined by the DOT, for years. We serve the same number of cities as SWA, btw. And our 717 are about the same as your -500's in an all-coach config.

Funny, I see all the Delta guys on here calling you guys a regional, too, since you have only SNB aircraft that only fly domestic. How does that feel? :laugh:

Since when did a fleet of 138 aircraft and 50 orders become "100 aircraft"? Are you that uninformed, or did you just lop off a third of our fleet because your point was weak? Also, did I mention that our orders are for fleet growth, while GK says that yourse are for replacement aircraft?

Blah, blah, blah, I can keep this crap going as long as you can. :laugh:

I am sorry. I did not know all that. You have to remember, you are an airline pilot with 10 years as a captain. I want to be an airline pilot but I still have 2 years left before I graduate from high school. Sorry if I offended you. It is great to be able to chat with people in your position. You are probably one of the most educated ones on this site. I hope to be like you when I get older.

 

[cole]

I say fence the Airtran guys, they can keep their seats and more importantly their contract. If they want to come over to SWA's contract they are welcome to, right at the bottom but also pay protected, if they were captains, even though I bet most of SWA's gear slingers make more than Airtran captains. That way the guys at Airtran who have hardons to keep their captain seat at their pay they are welcome to it.

 

[Tanker Clown]

I say fence the Airtran guys, they can keep their seats and more importantly their contract. If they want to come over to SWA's contract they are welcome to, right at the bottom but also pay protected, if they were captains, even though I bet most of SWA's gear slingers make more than Airtran captains. That way the guys at Airtran who have hardons to keep their captain seat at their pay they are welcome to it.

Cole, Ty says it's not about the money. It's about quality of life. He's also pretty proud of his new contract. So, he should support this will bells and whistles on.

What say you Ty?

 

[Kharma Police]

Actually SWA could put a fence around atl and airtran. Put in the Sli that all growth will be on SWA side. Nothing says SWA pilots couldn't open an atl base. It's all in the wording

You're about two months too late, someone else can bring you up to speed. Thanks for coming to the party, better late than never!