Will The AirTran Pilots' Windfall Be A Consideration?

[OK3]

The first year of the contract had $17 million in bonuses, which equates to around $20 million after retirement, FICA, etc., so back that out and you have $150 mil package, with $130 million of that in annual pay increases, divided over 5 years, or an annual increase of $26 million. Chump change.

So, the silly question of whether AirTran could afford the lousy $26 million increase per year our Contract cost is pretty much moot.

LoneStar, I'm assuming that you understand the difference between an Operating Profit and Net Profit. Many of the items that make up the difference are discretionary, ie choosing to retire debt early, investing in infrastructure outside of that required by current agreements, hedges, etc.

It's very easy to decide to make the net high or low, depending upon the desired outcome. Want to cry poor to a labor group in negotiations? Easy. Don't upgrade the tug fleet in 2012, do it now, and pay for it at once, instead of financing it or leasing. There goes $20 million (necessary, and look, we saved $1 million in interest, too!). Need to upgrade the computer terminals in 2011? Let's do it now, and pay cash. Oh, there went another $11 million. Sorry, guys, we don't have the money. Look at our Net Profit!

The problem AirTran isn't cost, it's revenue. Obviously, your CEO has run the numbers of what he can do with our airline with the projected synergies, and it vastly exceeds the costs of bringing ALL of AirTran to SWA pay rates.

While we're talking about this, I want to point out (again) that paying AirTran Pilots your current contract rates is not a "windfall" as the term is used in McCaskill/Bond and Allegheny/Piedmont merger law. A "windfall" in that context is "taking from one pilot group and giving it to another". This would not describe paying us your current rates, but it sure would describe taking our Captain seats and distributing them to your FO's.

Flame on, ladies.

OK Ty, one more time just because I am bored and you have never answered this question.

If B/M does not refer to pay and work rules as a consideration when it refers to a "windfall" what does it allow to be considered? If it only means one group can't gain seniority at the expense of the other what is left to consider? If one group can't gain seniority in an acquisition why did the legislation not just mandate relative seniority?

I have asked this question many times on many threads and have never received a reply. Perhaps because AAI guys know this argument is empty rhetoric and can't be defended.

 

[ivauir]

I find Bob Dylan's posts quite funny and entertaining, like watching a Rhesus Monkey throw feces around at a lab technician. I single him out for ridicule because he is not involved with either company and he is such an easy target.

All of the AirTran and Southwest posts are becoming too predictable, your above post is a perfect example. However, I do appreciate the fact that you are trying to be friendly when you insult us.

I can already predict your response but please feel free to post it anyway....

Why must you insist on being confrontational?

I have NEVER insulted even a signel AirTran pilot.

 

[Ty Webb]

OK Ty, one more time just because I am bored and you have never answered this question.

If B/M does not refer to pay and work rules as a consideration when it refers to a "windfall" what does it allow to be considered? If it only means one group can't gain seniority at the expense of the other what is left to consider? If one group can't gain seniority in an acquisition why did the legislation not just mandate relative seniority?

I have asked this question many times on many threads and have never received a reply. Perhaps because AAI guys know this argument is empty rhetoric and can't be defended.

I don't recall seeing the question previously. There has been so much stuff flying around (pun intended) that I probably missed it.

I don't pretend to know the answer, but I'll take a swag at it . . . My guess is that the answer involves adjustments to address the differences between the carriers. Bases, Fleet, growth, stagnation, reduction, retirement, etc.

Pay changes contract to contract, but seniority doesn't. If one group gives up seniority in exchange for pay differences, what happens if the next contract is negotiated under "austerity" measures that lessen or eliminate the pay gap? What now? How are you going to compensate the group that lost seniority in exchange for pay? There is no way to do so.

Yeah, I know, SWA will never go backwards in pay . . . and neither did UAL, DAL, NWA, Alaska, etc. Never say never. This industry is still one major event away from disaster, unfortunately.

 

[Tanker Clown]

Why do you guys even fight with Ty Webb? He (and all the AT guys) know the pay thing is a huge windfall. He's just trying to have his cake and eat it too. They know they are going to get the fat raise, they are just trying to cushion the seniority blow to come. Every AT guy knows they won the lottery. The thing you guys need to figure out at SWA is if the guys in the pool will go ahead of all the AT guys or if they will get sprinkled in with the AT guys at the bottom of the current SWA list. Even though they aren't on property, it really doesn't seem fair for a guy who couldn't get hired at SWA to go ahead of a guy in the SW pool that the company actually wanted.

 

[Max Powers]

Hey Red,

You guys have a great contract. I congratulate SWAPA pilots for achieving that. I say this with zero sarcasm.

The one hitch I can see in your calculations is this; There are no nine year FO's at AirTran. The nine year pilots at AirTran have been Captains for the last 6 to 6.5 years.

Cheers.

Could not have said it better!!

 

[S3sundowner]

SWA types: make a pact to quit arguing with these people here and now. Let the nc figure it out.

 

[Ty Webb]

Why do you guys even fight with Ty Webb? He (and all the AT guys) know the pay thing is a huge windfall. He's just trying to have his cake and eat it too. They know they are going to get the fat raise, they are just trying to cushion the seniority blow to come.

TankerToad, most folks who have been on FI for any period of time know all about you, and ignore you. They know you don't work for any airline, and spend your time mostly throwing poo at the Delta guys (apparently, you're still angry about being turned down).

You don't have any airline knowledge and probably couldn't even figure out how to get off the ramp without a "Follow Me" sign, so here's your "Follow Me" sign on this issue:

Seniority is a constant, pay rates are not.

Pay changes from contract to contract, but seniority doesn't. If one group gives up seniority in exchange for pay differences, what happens if the next contract is negotiated under "austerity" measures that lessen or eliminate the pay gap? What now? How are you going to compensate the group that lost seniority in exchange for pay? There is no way to do so.

Yeah, I know, SWA will never go backwards in pay . . . and neither did UAL, DAL, NWA, Alaska, etc. Never say never. This industry is still one major event away from disaster, unfortunately.

 

[ivauir]

That wasn't meant to be an insult, as much as an observation.

You can get away with a lot when the moderator is in your back pocket ...

 

[FL717]

The thing you guys need to figure out at SWA is if the guys in the pool will go ahead of all the AT guys or if they will get sprinkled in with the AT guys at the bottom of the current SWA list. Even though they aren't on property, it really doesn't seem fair for a guy who couldn't get hired at SWA to go ahead of a guy in the SW pool that the company actually wanted.

This was asked and answered already:

Southwest will probably run the 2 airlines separate for awhile. Then what will most likely happen... Southewest will want to combine ops... but the caveat will be that the Airtran Pilots will need to re-interview for jobs at Southwest.

As YOU mentioned earlier (SPOT ON ASSESSMENT)... almost ALL of the Airtran Pilots are NOT qualified to work at Southwest. Almost NONE of the Airtran Pilots have college degrees; almost ALL of the ex-military Pilots are bad conduct discharges; almost NONE of the Airtran Pilots have 121 time or have any turbine PIC except what they got while at Airtran; Almost ALL of the Airtran First Officers do NOT have ATP's; PLUS most of the Airtran Pilots have D.U.I's, criminal records, or as you so eloquently stated "Skeletons in their closets".

This is going to solve ALL of the Southwest integration issues/problems as the Airtran Pilots will simply be shown the door... and all the Southwest poolies and new hires will backfill the 95% of Airtran Pilots that will be gone.

Ask your buddy in the training department... he can very verify all of this.... AND he can verify my stats about the credentials of 95% of ALL the Airtran Pilots.

Great catch!! And GREAT solution to the question you pose!

 

[Ty Webb]

You can get away with a lot when the moderator is in your back pocket ...

Ty's done his time in the penalty box, too.

If you are offended by the word "idiot" it's a good thing you weren't on this board in the 90's. The word "idiot" was a term of endearment.

 

[Uppercrust]

Ty's done his time in the penalty box, too.

If you are offended by the word "idiot" it's a good thing you weren't on this board in the 90's. The word "idiot" was a term of endearment.

Whatever happened to your lover -9Capt? Are you guys still dating?

 

[Ty Webb]

Almost NONE of the Airtran Pilots have college degrees; almost ALL of the ex-military Pilots are bad conduct discharges; almost NONE of the Airtran Pilots have 121 time or have any turbine PIC except what they got while at Airtran; Almost ALL of the Airtran First Officers do NOT have ATP's; PLUS most of the Airtran Pilots have D.U.I's, criminal records, or as you so eloquently stated "Skeletons in their closets".

Don't forget that our Pilot Parking lot is often mistaken for a Bike Rally, we have questionable dentition, enjoy whiskey for breakfast, enforce "Captains Authority" with a cat o'nine tails and our Union meetings usually include a couple of shankings.

 

[Ty Webb]

Whatever happened to your lover -9Capt? Are you guys still dating?

Who wants to know, "Rebound Guy"?

 

[Tanker Clown]

This was asked and answered already:

Southwest will probably run the 2 airlines separate for awhile. Then what will most likely happen... Southewest will want to combine ops... but the caveat will be that the Airtran Pilots will need to re-interview for jobs at Southwest.

As YOU mentioned earlier (SPOT ON ASSESSMENT)... almost ALL of the Airtran Pilots are NOT qualified to work at Southwest. Almost NONE of the Airtran Pilots have college degrees; almost ALL of the ex-military Pilots are bad conduct discharges; almost NONE of the Airtran Pilots have 121 time or have any turbine PIC except what they got while at Airtran; Almost ALL of the Airtran First Officers do NOT have ATP's; PLUS most of the Airtran Pilots have D.U.I's, criminal records, or as you so eloquently stated "Skeletons in their closets".

This is going to solve ALL of the Southwest integration issues/problems as the Airtran Pilots will simply be shown the door... and all the Southwest poolies and new hires will backfill the 95% of Airtran Pilots that will be gone.

Ask your buddy in the training department... he can very verify all of this.... AND he can verify my stats about the credentials of 95% of ALL the Airtran Pilots.

Great catch!! And GREAT solution to the question you pose!

Thank you. Finally someone who get's it. BTW, my friend is basically a mgt pilot now...not in the training shop. He's pretty much on tap to be a chief pilot. He says there's NO way that the AT guys will be chiefs. They will bring in their own guys. He thinks they'll combine ops in Orlando....and he might get the nod as the chief in ATL.

 

[vixin]

Hey Red,

You guys have a great contract. I congratulate SWAPA pilots for achieving that. I say this with zero sarcasm.

The one hitch I can see in your calculations is this; There are no nine year FO's at AirTran. The nine year pilots at AirTran have been Captains for the last 6 to 6.5 years.

Cheers.

And yet that 9 yr SWA FO still made more the the Airtran CA. :laugh::laugh::laugh:
With a better QOL, less days and better benefits.:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[S3sundowner]

Hey a FIVE year FO at SWA can make $180k flying 130 trips/month. That beats THE TOP aai captain by a country mile.

 

[Tanker Clown]

Hey a FIVE year FO at SWA can make $180k flying 130 trips/month. That beats THE TOP aai captain by a country mile.

You guys know this...and the AT guys know this. Unfortunately for the AT guys, the arbitrators will know this as well. I have a family member who is a judge that does arbitration. He says all things will be considered. When I told him of your situation he says it looks good for SW guys. Even the fact that SW guys tend to be older is a boon for AT. But the pay part will be huge.

He also said that in the end, a lot will come down to why type of representation you have, i.e. who has better lawyers. Especially since "Fair and equitable" is never really defined. As far as council goes, maybe AT has the upper hand due to their ALPA ties and a bigger war chest.

 

[Ty Webb]

Hey a FIVE year FO at SWA can make $180k flying 130 trips/month. That beats THE TOP aai captain by a country mile.

Actually, Chief, your statement shows you really know very little about AirTran Pilots, our pay system, or much of anything else. It's no wonder you seem surprised when AirTran Pilots bristle at your comments.

We had many CA's making well into the mid $200's under our old 2001 contract. Some of our most junior CA's, who were on reserve were making the numbers you are spewing.

Maybe you ought to pick up the phone, and call some of your SWAPA guys for some real info, instead of just spewing your nonsense on FI.

 

[Ty Webb]

I have a family member who is a judge that does arbitration. He says all things will be considered.

This is so funny, Judge TankerClown weighs in . . . :laugh:

TC, the first thing that you hear when you contact a knowledgeable Trial Lawyer about anything to do with RLA (something you haven't worked under) is that you need to address your question specifically in terms of RLA law, using RLA attorneys. I doubt very much that your esteemed Judge Tankerclown presides over RLA cases, and probably qualified his comments thusly. Unless, of course, there is no Judge Tankerclown . . . .

As far as council goes, maybe AT has the upper hand due to their ALPA ties and a bigger war chest.

Does Judge Tankerclown not know the difference between "counsel" and "council"?

 

[Dash Power]

I have seen pilots like Ty before. He is the guy who penciled whip his logbook where others put their fair time in paying their dues. He is the guy who would cross a line if he felt it was to his advantage. He is the guy that would sell his FO out to save his ticket. He is the guy who think it is fair to be senior to someone who has put five more years in the same job.

And thank Jesus these people are few and far between. I have a good feeling that the integration of these two lists will be the new gold standard of how it is done right. Not everyone will be happy. But I will bet that these unhappy people are always unhappy anyways.