Will The AirTran Pilots' Windfall Be A Consideration?

[malibuVride]

...............

 

[Lonestar]

I see a couple points to clear up.
Ty, we'll start with you(for the record, the chinese menu comment was very funny!).

1) You reference your airline's growth. Don't forget your furlough during one of your 'banner years'; that's something SWA has never done.

2) Speaking of banner years, look at the value of your new contract compared to those banner years. Your airline, on its own, can barely afford your new contract. Our SWAPA contract would put AAI in the red!

3) You asked where SWA was 15 years ago. SWA and it's pilots were sharing amazing profits. While the wages were behind the industry, jthe profit sharing made more than a few millionaires. Nowhere in that history will you find a highly compensated mgmt dragging labor group through 5+ years of mediation!

Next, for Don Verita. WOW!!! 50 firm OPTIONS! If they were orders, they would still represent about 8.5% of our fleet. We have twice that in orders and options.

Finally, for atldc9. I believe the actual conversion factor for TFP to hourly is 1.1393, so the 1.15 wag was pretty close.

 

[Lonestar]

Furthermore, nobody is taking away any SWA F/O upgrades. Our aircraft that we bring to the table are flown by our pilots. This fear mongering over upgrade times is baseless and pointless and only results in division/animosity where there should be unity.[/B]

Ty, what you don't seem to get is that for every young AT pilot inserted above a SWA FO, that will certainly delay upgrade. Your group's youth is just part of the problem. Our group will retire infinitely more pilots over the next decade, more than half the total number of you group. The benefits of those retirements to a SWA FO will be offset by the injection of AT pilots in the combined list. I don't want to take you away from your aircraft, or ATL. But you want the type of system seniority that will allow you to go to any of the seven domociles we don't have in common and occupy left seats.

Upon further investigation, your group's youth can be directly attributed to years of hiring less experienced pilots. I'm not saying AT doesn't have experienced pilots, but there are plenty of cases of pilots with little to no PIC turbine. There are plenty among your ranks whose only PIC turbine is from Gulfstream (not a real job!). I know that over the last 5 years, your pilots' quals have come up a bit...but so has the average age of your newhires.

In fact, the ones that did have the experience to be selected to interview at SWA probably did. And were told NO THANKS. If you don't believe that ask nearly every member of you MEC/LEC and committee members.

 

[PapaWoody]

Just a quick question. What is the 9 year TFP rate for a SW FO? To make your above comparison accurate, just do the monthly TFP for SW 9 year FO x monthly guarantee(87?) compared to AAI's number above.

I'm not even remotely saying the SW guy doesn't make more, but your not making an accurate monthly comparison when you use an arbitrary conversion factor and 124 TFP, versus a min guarantee month at AAI.

FWIW

I was also a little confused when I read that, because our FO's probably do average 120+ trips for the month. But what he meant was $124 per trip x the conversion factor which is actually closer to 1.14 hr/trip (which isn't arbitrary, it is based on distance, time, and the fact that SWA has always had to reinvent the wheel). That would make our 9 yr. FO's hourly pay rate $141.36. Divide that by the two AAI pay rates in question and you get $141.36/$75 = 1.88 and $141.36/$97 = 1.46. So there is a 46-88% increase in pay just comparing the pay rates. We could throw in monthly guarantees and make it even more lopsided. AAI's monthly guarantee is 70 and ours is 89 trips divided by 1.14 trips/hr = 78 hrs monthly guarantee, resulting in a guaranteed monthly paycheck increase of more than 10%. However, I would like to point out that the only numbers that will be used in this process are the ones that were in place on Sep 27th; ie, AAI's new TA pay rates are immaterial.

And Lonestar, how dare you try to point out any past precedent that doesn't confirm Ty Webb and Angus' rose-colored view of the world of arbitration! That makes you guilty of fear-mongering and AAI pilot group bashing. Facts and common sense will not be tolerated!! :laugh:

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

 

[Bob Dylan]

This deal is DOA. SWA can never compromise their unique corporate culture, and as evidenced on here, most AirTran pilots don't have the same feelings and loyalty that got the SWA pilots their jobs.

I would expect GK to run both airlines separately, or call the deal off. He'd be crazy to integrate.

 

[GuppyWN]

I know there have been a number of opinions on the AT pilots' windfall and its relevance during SLI. Some have stated none of the numerous gains for the AT pilots can be considered during arbitration. A friend of mine from Chautauqua sent the results of their arbitration with Shuttle America. It was a 24-page document so I took several relevant quotes from the arbitrator in his summary and explanation.

>>>Arbitrator- Richard R. Kasher, Esquire
October 19, 2005

"It is clear, when one considers routes flown, cities serviced, the two carriers' relative financial condition, fleet size and fleet type, that the equities weigh so heavily on the side of the Chautauqua Pilots as to virtually obliterate any alleged equities that the Shuttle America Pilots claim they bring to the merger."

"Simply stated, the rates of pay, rules and working conditions in the Chautauqua Pilots' collective bargaining agreement, are far superior to those found in the Shuttle America Pilots' collective bargaining agreement. As a result of the acquisition Shuttle America Pilots will be the beneficiaries of the superior rates of pay, rules and working conditions found in the Chautauqua Pilots collective bargaining agreement."

"A date of hire seniority integration, while it might not significantly dilute the seniority of the Chautauqua Pilots, would, to some extent, constitute a WINDFALL BENEFIT for the Shuttle America Pilots."

"This Arbitrator agrees that the "reasonable" career expectations of the two pilot groups is the benchmark for determining what is fair and equitable in this case."

"On this basis alone, the integration of Shuttle America Pilots into the Chautauqua operation has substantially increased career expectation for the Shuttle America Pilots, far beyond what they could have reasonably expected when they "signed on" as pilots for Shuttle America."<<<

The arbitrator accepted the Chautauqua Pilots' proposal and as a result, the most senior Shuttle pilot was inserted at approximately 70% seniority and the Shuttle captains DID lose their seats.

Just another list of reasons why I think we will work this out WITHOUT an arbitrator. The 2% of us aren't true examples of the line pilot mentality.

Gup

 

[BOX OFFICE]

Here is a good primer on the McCaskill-Bond amendment, which pretty much makes all of your ridiculous arguments moot. It was written by the AFA for flight attendants, but it will serve you all well since all of your petty b1tching and sniping is acting like a bunch of flight attendants with PMS.

In summary, the merger must be "fair and equitable" and the Chautauqua/SA , AA/Reno, AA/TWA, and other decisions prior to it are made moot by it. Fire up google, read the actual law, and stop acting like a bunch of nancys.

http://www.afaairtran.com/documents/mccaskill.pdf

 

[vixin]

Just thinking,

I also found several ref. of your CEO saying the same and worse. Of course that thread was deleted and I am not willing to look them up and paste them again (SO it to could be deleted). Our growth was slowed so we could buy your company. Why is it so hard for the Tranny boys to see this? I suppose GK and Bob are just going to show everybody their cards for the heck of it.

 

[Kharma Police]

Just thinking,

I also found several ref. of your CEO saying the same and worse. Of course that thread was deleted and I am not willing to look them up and paste them again (SO it to could be deleted). Our growth was slowed so we could buy your company. Why is it so hard for the Tranny boys to see this? I suppose GK and Bob are just going to show everybody their cards for the heck of it.

To quote The Dude from, The Big Lebowski, "Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

 

[Kharma Police]

This deal is DOA. SWA can never compromise their unique corporate culture, and as evidenced on here, most AirTran pilots don't have the same feelings and loyalty that got the SWA pilots their jobs.

I would expect GK to run both airlines separately, or call the deal off. He'd be crazy to integrate.

Quick!, Quick!, go call your broker and put in a short sale order for AirTran!!!!!

 

[ivauir]

The flaming is really disappointing.

I've really enjoyed my time at SWA, but if the posts here are any indication that is over.

 

[Kharma Police]

The flaming is really disappointing.

I've really enjoyed my time at SWA, but if the posts here are any indication that is over.

Relax, we're not talking about the fall of the Roman Empire, everything will be just fine, trust me! Just remember the reason for the holiday season!

 

[j41driver]

... and as evidenced on here, most AirTran pilots ...

"Most" AirTran pilots don't even read FI. What you read here from the same 3-5 AirTran guys does not necessarily reflect the feelings/mentality of the majority of us.

I'd bet that the same applies to the SWA group as well. None of us will solve this integration on here or any other web forum.

 

[Splert]

Here is a good primer on the McCaskill-Bond amendment, which pretty much makes all of your ridiculous arguments moot. It was written by the AFA for flight attendants, but it will serve you all well since all of your petty b1tching and sniping is acting like a bunch of flight attendants with PMS.

In summary, the merger must be "fair and equitable" and the Chautauqua/SA , AA/Reno, AA/TWA, and other decisions prior to it are made moot by it. Fire up google, read the actual law, and stop acting like a bunch of nancys.

http://www.afaairtran.com/documents/mccaskill.pdf

What you don't get is that Reno/AMR was fair and equitable.

 

[ivauir]

To quote The Dude from, The Big Lebowski, "Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

Really?

Your CEO's comments (removed by a moderator who HAPPENS to work at AAI) are the same as some random pilot's opinion? Wow.

You Lebowski quote is more appropriate after the pontifications of Ty ("My version of Fair and Equitable" is a 50% pay raise and a 20 year bump in DOH) Webb.

This thread was started with a factual example of an arbitrated decision. The squirming of some who interpreted AGM as a one way street to look after their interests alone is palpable.

Stick to facts and maybe this could be a constructive conversation. Keep posturing for arbitration (like what you say on FI matters!) and you are just pissing off your potential future coworkers.

 

[PapaWoody]

Here is a good primer on the McCaskill-Bond amendment, which pretty much makes all of your ridiculous arguments moot. It was written by the AFA for flight attendants, but it will serve you all well since all of your petty b1tching and sniping is acting like a bunch of flight attendants with PMS.

In summary, the merger must be "fair and equitable" and the Chautauqua/SA , AA/Reno, AA/TWA, and other decisions prior to it are made moot by it. Fire up google, read the actual law, and stop acting like a bunch of nancys.

http://www.afaairtran.com/documents/mccaskill.pdf

So are you saying all pre-Bond-McCaskill integrations are inherently not "fair and equitable", even the ones that were the result of an arbitrators decision under the guidelines of Allegheny-Mohawk like Chautaqua/SA and AA/Reno? Hmm, interesting tack. Maybe you should actually "fire up google, read the actual law..." and realize that no matter how you try to convince yourself it says something different, it specifically does not define "fair and equitable" as relative seniority. In fact, it intentionally refrains from defining "F&E" because each integration will have it's own individual situational components. Oh, and btw, I read your F/A primer and it in no way makes any of these arguments moot.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

PS As for the AA/TWA integration that caused a couple of liberal Senators from MO to run crying to mommy, let's all just imagine what would have been the fate of the ill-treated TWA pilots had AA not bought them before 9/11. That's right, TWA would have folded and they would have all been out of a job. Not bashing them - their but for the grace of God go we all - but just pointing out an unpleasant fact that McCaskill and Bond didn't want to acknowledge when they changed the rules of the game.

 

[Kharma Police]

Really?

Your CEO's comments (removed by a moderator who HAPPENS to work at AAI) are the same as some random pilot's opinion? Wow.

You Lebowski quote is more appropriate after the pontifications of Ty ("My version of Fair and Equitable" is a 50% pay raise and a 20 year bump in DOH) Webb.

This thread was started with a factual example of an arbitrated decision. The squirming of some who interpreted AGM as a one way street to look after their interests alone is palpable.

Stick to facts and maybe this could be a constructive conversation. Keep posturing for arbitration (like what you say on FI matters!) and you are just pissing off your potential future coworkers.

You don't seem to understand that you and I really don't have control over the inevitable outcome. Both Merger Committees will fight for their respective group and you and I will have one vote on whatever list our unions come up with. More than likely one side will vote it down and then it will go to arbitration.

This is just an exercise in mental masturbation, like convincing Liberals to love Limbaugh or Conservatives to love Olbermann neither side is going to change their basic point of view. However, feel free to cover the same ground over and over and over again. It is just getting laughable to most on both sides.

 

[PapaWoody]

You don't seem to understand that you and I really don't have control over the inevitable outcome. Both Merger Committees will fight for their respective group and you and I will have one vote on whatever list our unions come up with and after it is voted down it will go to arbitration.

This is just an exercise in mental masturbation, like convincing Liberals to love Limbaugh or Conservatives to love Olbermann neither side is going to change their basic point of view. However, feel free to cover the same ground over and over and over again. It is just getting laughable to most on both sides.

While I agree with you that a lot of this is just pissing in the wind, it does have merit, imo, because if we as SWA pilots don't rebut some of your AAI guys assertions about "the law says this and that", you might actually convince your group to take a hard line and vote a fair compromise down and take this to arbitration, based on ridiculous interpretations of the law such as "relative seniority". Which, imho, will not be a good way to start our collective future together, no matter how the integration turns out.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

PS For the record, I realize the rebutting of ridiculous assertions cuts both ways, and has merit to both groups with respect to managing expectations. So carry on.

 

[Kharma Police]

While I agree with you that a lot of this is just pissing in the wind, it does have merit, imo, because if we as SWA pilots don't rebut some of your AAI guys assertions about "the law says this and that", you might actually convince your group to take a hard line and vote a fair compromise down and take this to arbitration, based on ridiculous interpretations of the law such as "relative seniority". Which, imho, will not be a good way to start our collective future together, no matter how the integration turns out.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

Again, what you think is fair, equitable and reasonable might be completely different from our perspective and vice versa. You aren't going to change perceptions on an anonymous message board visited by a small fraction of our pilot groups. The only thing that will come out of this circle jerk is gossip and negative innuendo that will transfer to the crew rooms and cockpits which will ironically, impact the airline after the lists are combined not before.

 

[DonVerita]

First off, you have to use your original payscale that was used as a snapshot in Sept. I really like how you guys want to hold up the new one and say 'it isn't that much different now'.

But I'll do the public math anyway..

9yr AAI FO - 75/hr x 70 = 5250/month (original payscale)
9yr AAI FO - 97/hr x 70 = 6790/month (new payscale)

9yr SW FO - 124 trips for pay, mulitpied by a conservative rate of 1.15 (1.18 is closer to reality), equals 142.

142/hr x 70 = 9940/month that's a 90 percent increase off your original pay, or 46 percent increase off your new payrates. (which won't be used)

So instead of 50-80 percent, I should have use 46-90 percent. My bad.

I used your NEW payscale when making the comparison, so why wouldn't you use ours?

I also noticed that you only did an F/O comparison (and used the OLD payscale). Where are your CA comparisons? Yeah, that wouldn't help your case.

Knock off the "Windfall" crap. You are trying to make it sound like SWA pilots are better than everyone else. You're not. You are what you are because you have a logical, empathetic, and employee-friendly management team. Walk a day in our shoes or that of any other major airline here that deals with Lorenzo style management every day.

Look...I never applied to nor have ever had the desire to work for SWA. Paying for a type rating just to get a job just isn't my cup of tea. But I am very hopeful with this merger because I know that both companies on their own would have a difficult time going up against the combined behemoths of DAL/NWA and CAL/UAL. However...together, given the projection of where G.K. wants to take the newly combined airline, we could be the 3rd behemoth in the not too distant future. We can do it as a team and with unity. It starts by eliminating this Us vs. Them talk.

If there is any "windfall", I guess it would be the permanant riddance of AAI management. I wonder what company they will slither over to, infest and screwup? Probably Frito-Lay.