Will The AirTran Pilots' Windfall Be A Consideration?

[27 driver]

You are right, you can't compare the two. You really can't compare the two. Continental and United is a merger of two equals. SWA + AT isn't that case. It's basically the airline everyone wants to be at + an airline who has adult jets but pays and treats its pilots like a regional jet outfit that people don't want to be at (or are trapped there due to poor resumes/skeletons). I think every SWA guy would tell you...and every Air Tran guy would privately admit, that this isn't a merger of equals.

I'm sure the arbitrator will see it this way and know that AT just won the lottery. I'm curious if he'll make you guys interview for a job. Seems only fair since a lot of guys there want to be at SWA, and have probably interviewed and been turned down. I just hope I get in before this whole thing goes down.

Ya, we will all interview for our jobs. What ever helps you sleep at night. You simply look past the point of my post. Either way you will be junior. Flame away clown. Its the only thing you are good at.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I can't think of one, single reason that Southwest will combine the two companies. What a disaster waiting to happen. I bet they run them separately. JMHO

 

[FL717]

Despite their ability to rub some people here wrong.... I actually have to admit that I believe Tanker Clown and Bob Dylan are pointing out some VERY important and relevant things:

1. I was hired on at Airtran when I was unable to get hired anywhere prior. I did NOT have an ATP because I was only 19 years old. I didn't meet the minimums to apply anywhere else because I had ZERO turbine time when I was hired. Also I only had my G.E.D. and all my other options were limited. I applied at Mesa, but they required a High School Diploma and they would NOT accept my G.E.D. despite my pointing out that it WAS an equivalancy. Fortunately AirTran did hire me. I think it might have been the 110.4 hours of X-Country time along with my 67.5 hours of Night time. I also had approx 101.1 hours of Multiengine time. Anyway.... I struggled when they put me in the DC-9, so they switched me to the B-717 (or as I call it - The Electric Bird), because I was able to master the automation due to my hundreds of hours of Microsoft Flight Simulator 2.0 at home.

2. I believe they will run AirTran and Southwest separate, and that most if not ALL AirTran Pilots will be replaced by SWA new-hires, and AirTran Pilots will and should be required to interview as new-hires. My problem is that I have 3 D.U.I's. Well.... not actually 3 YET. My latest one was coming home from the SWA-AAI Roundup and I was pulled over by the Fayetteville Sherrifs Department. I registered a .17 plus I had some weed in the car. I am awaiting my court case.... but I have a GREAT Attorney. I HOPE that I can simply just move right over to SWA WITHOUT re-interviewing OR if they do run separate companies... that they will keep AAI around till I retire or go to jail.

Spot on guys... I rarely see unbiased non-flaming posts on Flightinfo... but you both nailed this one!

Kudos!!

 

[FL717]

BTW - Please keep all this information on the down-low. I have NOT informed the FAA or my employer yet... and I do NOT want to ruin my chance at true LUV.... if you know what I mean...

Thanks Bro's!!

 

[Lonestar]

It is a complete misnomer that our new contract put ANY strain on our profitability, far from it. AAI had the lowest non-fuel CASM of any major, and the lowest Pilot CASM. I haven't run the numbers on SWA pay/scheduling rules for our block hours, but I have seen the numbers using the new Alaska rates.

Ty, since you brought it up I thought I would address your comments with the words of your MEC VC, Mr. PLC.

"The $140 million number is low. Remember, it's over $50 million in just the first year, and it's a five year deal. Also, AirTran won't make nearly $160 million this year in net profit."

And since you brought up our contract, it will cost north of $100 million per year to bring your pilots to our SWAPA rates. AT mgmt would be insane to throw nearly 2/3 of your best year's profit at your group.

 

[ivauir]

If you don't like what he has to say then don't respond or put him on your ignore list. There are several guys that I tune out on this board. Maybe try watching football or get a new game for the crash pad X-Box.

The reality is that you SWA guys would miss him if he was gone. You would be forced to go back to trading tit for tats with the Delta boys. Even Tanker Clown has gotten bored with trying to throw feces at Delta. The fact is, you need your bad guy to justify your point of view, it's just human nature. But as I pointed out in a previous post, it's all just mental masturbation that will not affect the final outcome.

Kinda funny coming from a guy who gets fired up over Bob D's posts ...

Frankly, I want nothing more than to welcome AirTran bubbas aboard, and I'm working hard to do just that.

Certain attitudes are making that very difficult.

Regardless of the SLI every AirTran pilot will be better off after this transaction. On the other hand SWA pilots have something to lose ...

We through you a party and someone takes a dump in the urinal! WTF?!

 

[FL717]

<<<>>>

 

[Kharma Police]

Kinda funny coming from a guy who gets fired up over Bob D's posts ...

Frankly, I want nothing more than to welcome AirTran bubbas aboard, and I'm working hard to do just that.

Certain attitudes are making that very difficult.

Regardless of the SLI every AirTran pilot will be better off after this transaction. On the other hand SWA pilots have something to lose ...

We through you a party and someone takes a dump in the urinal! WTF?!

I find Bob Dylan's posts quite funny and entertaining, like watching a Rhesus Monkey throw feces around at a lab technician. I single him out for ridicule because he is not involved with either company and he is such an easy target.

All of the AirTran and Southwest posts are becoming too predictable, your above post is a perfect example. However, I do appreciate the fact that you are trying to be friendly when you insult us.

I can already predict your response but please feel free to post it anyway....

 

[MILPILOT17]

BTW - Please keep all this information on the down-low. I have NOT informed the FAA or my employer yet... and I do NOT want to ruin my chance at true LUV.... if you know what I mean...

Thanks Bro's!!

Great post(s)! Don't worry, your secret is safe with us

 

[Lear70]

I find Bob Dylan's posts quite funny and entertaining,

I might, if he ever had anything original or useful to add to the discussion...

At least some of the other flamers occasionally throw out something new or something that at least requires more than 2 seconds of thought before dismissing it outright...

 

[ASADFW7]

Remember guys and gals after this deal is done, we have only military and civilians. In that we have a subset, the Swiss Army Backpack Dudes, and the smoking jacket and hat wearing check airman and check airman wannabes. So knock yourselves out but seriously go for it.

 

[shootr]

Hey Lear,

Is it OK for an AT guy to call sombody on FI an idiot? Just wondering...

shootr

 

[ASADFW7]

shootr that is a little redundant dontcha think, like call the fat girl heavy, the husky kid thick...

 

[redflyer65]

I used your NEW payscale when making the comparison, so why wouldn't you use ours?

I also noticed that you only did an F/O comparison (and used the OLD payscale). Where are your CA comparisons? Yeah, that wouldn't help your case.

Knock off the "Windfall" crap. You are trying to make it sound like SWA pilots are better than everyone else. You're not. You are what you are because you have a logical, empathetic, and employee-friendly management team. Walk a day in our shoes or that of any other major airline here that deals with Lorenzo style management every day.

Look...I never applied to nor have ever had the desire to work for SWA. Paying for a type rating just to get a job just isn't my cup of tea. But I am very hopeful with this merger because I know that both companies on their own would have a difficult time going up against the combined behemoths of DAL/NWA and CAL/UAL. However...together, given the projection of where G.K. wants to take the newly combined airline, we could be the 3rd behemoth in the not too distant future. We can do it as a team and with unity. It starts by eliminating this Us vs. Them talk.

If there is any "windfall", I guess it would be the permanant riddance of AAI management. I wonder what company they will slither over to, infest and screwup? Probably Frito-Lay.

I just used our contractual payrates. We didn't get a new contract.

My comparison is apples to apples. If anything I slighted the Southwest side a little. I used 70hr on the Southwest side and that's low.

I can show a different method...


A 9yr FO trip for pay rate is 124.23

Using a typical three day trip (pulled from this months schedule) of 20.07 credit X 124.23 = 2493.

Flight time for that block is 16.45. Divide the 2493 by the block of 16.45 and you get 151.55 per hour.

For that one trip above, the Southwest pilot make 56 percent more than the new Airtran rates. Using the original payscale and its around 100 percent increase for a AAI FO.

I don't think the Southwest pilots are better than anyone. I don't know how you can be honest in saying the above is not a windfall position.

We can agree that we should leave the AAI managers somewhere, maybe the side of the road!

 

[clr4theapch]

Hey Lear,

Is it OK for an AT guy to call sombody on FI an idiot? Just wondering...

shootr

Shootr... please "carefully" read the Terms of Service of the web site.. Flight Info... if it does ntot violate these terms it is "generally" ok.. thicker skin may be required if you wish to play here... lets not call "May Day" on such trivial matters...

 

[50Pesos]

We through you a party and someone takes a dump in the urinal! WTF?!

Tell me this isnt true? Seriously!

 

[Ty Webb]

Hey Lear,

Is it OK for an AT guy to call sombody on FI an idiot? Just wondering...

shootr

That wasn't meant to be an insult, as much as an observation.

 

[S3sundowner]

So then it's not an insult if, in your opinion, it's a true statement?

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty, since you brought it up I thought I would address your comments with the words of your MEC VC, Mr. PLC.

"The $140 million number is low. Remember, it's over $50 million in just the first year, and it's a five year deal. Also, AirTran won't make nearly $160 million this year in net profit."

The first year of the contract had $17 million in bonuses, which equates to around $20 million after retirement, FICA, etc., so back that out and you have $150 mil package, with $130 million of that in annual pay increases, divided over 5 years, or an annual increase of $26 million. Chump change.

So, the silly question of whether AirTran could afford the lousy $26 million increase per year our Contract cost is pretty much moot.

LoneStar, I'm assuming that you understand the difference between an Operating Profit and Net Profit. Many of the items that make up the difference are discretionary, ie choosing to retire debt early, investing in infrastructure outside of that required by current agreements, hedges, etc.

It's very easy to decide to make the net high or low, depending upon the desired outcome. Want to cry poor to a labor group in negotiations? Easy. Don't upgrade the tug fleet in 2012, do it now, and pay for it at once, instead of financing it or leasing. There goes $20 million (necessary, and look, we saved $1 million in interest, too!). Need to upgrade the computer terminals in 2011? Let's do it now, and pay cash. Oh, there went another $11 million. Sorry, guys, we don't have the money. Look at our Net Profit!

And since you brought up our contract, it will cost north of $100 million per year to bring your pilots to our SWAPA rates. AT mgmt would be insane to throw nearly 2/3 of your best year's profit at your group.

The problem AirTran isn't cost, it's revenue. Obviously, your CEO has run the numbers of what he can do with our airline with the projected synergies, and it vastly exceeds the costs of bringing ALL of AirTran to SWA pay rates.

While we're talking about this, I want to point out (again) that paying AirTran Pilots your current contract rates is not a "windfall" as the term is used in McCaskill/Bond and Allegheny/Piedmont merger law. A "windfall" in that context is "taking from one pilot group and giving it to another". This would not describe paying us your current rates, but it sure would describe taking our Captain seats and distributing them to your FO's.

Flame on, ladies.

 

[dicko]

I just used our contractual payrates. We didn't get a new contract.

My comparison is apples to apples. If anything I slighted the Southwest side a little. I used 70hr on the Southwest side and that's low.

I can show a different method...


A 9yr FO trip for pay rate is 124.23

Using a typical three day trip (pulled from this months schedule) of 20.07 credit X 124.23 = 2493.

Flight time for that block is 16.45. Divide the 2493 by the block of 16.45 and you get 151.55 per hour.

For that one trip above, the Southwest pilot make 56 percent more than the new Airtran rates. Using the original payscale and its around 100 percent increase for a AAI FO.

I don't think the Southwest pilots are better than anyone. I don't know how you can be honest in saying the above is not a windfall position.

We can agree that we should leave the AAI managers somewhere, maybe the side of the road!

Hey Red,

You guys have a great contract. I congratulate SWAPA pilots for achieving that. I say this with zero sarcasm.

The one hitch I can see in your calculations is this; There are no nine year FO's at AirTran. The nine year pilots at AirTran have been Captains for the last 6 to 6.5 years.

Cheers.