Will SWA and AT truly merge?

[Kharma Police]

Ohhhh how nice! Kharma and SWAdude have just finished the SLI.

Reality check.......None of us knows how this will go down. Both NC's are going to spend the next 6 months to 2 years hammering out positions and running numbers. They are going to consult with the brightest (most expensive) attorneys and bankers around the country to build cases for their respective list. Eventually they will come to an agreement or an impasse. What ever the case....none of us knows how this will go down!!!

So with that everyone needs to chill and keep the blood pressure under control because this is the only sure shot.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhqyZeUlE8U

That is all very true. I was just trying to be realistic in terms of what I felt was fair. This kind of option would be very complicated to implement, 20 years later, Northwest Orient and Republic pilots still have animosity regarding the Red Book and Green Book.

 

[SWAdude]

You guys have a 2 year fence restriction in your contract, correct?

No there is not.

Can a senior pilot displace a junior pilot out of his domicile?

I have no idea of specifics of language. I would just think that seat protection could have "some" guarantees.

 

[Cruncher]

Ty,

AAI operates more pilots per plane than SWA. Once, the AAI fleet are up to SWA usage rate, we have growth potential without the addition of additional pilots. Delay up the seniority list.

11.8 vs. 10.8 (using our numbers from 27 Sept). It's only 1 pilot per plane, but it equates to roughly 9% excess (over SWA's ratio).

What are we loosing? Well for one, SWA is an older group. Before the announcement, we all had a projection of our age-based attrition seniority. I am sure you can understand how injecting younger guys senior to SWA guys will forever slow a SWA pilot's progression up the seniority ladder (as the AAI will forever be senior to the SWA guy). IOW, the only thing we have to loose is seniority progression and that is the possibility AAI brings, further seniority delays.

If you can't understand that concept, you'll never understand why SWA guys get on here and start throwing down.

One thing I learned in my Corps days was to not email with anger. So I try to keep emotion out of my replies. But, you can't say AAI does not take anything from SWA guys. The potential to take very lucrative discretionary flying (as a 5th year FO, discretionary flying usually runs in the 1 - 1.5k / day range), monthly lines, vacation, upgrade date, IOW all the things seniority brings is further delayed.

The last couple years SWA has been in accumulation mode, saving huge amounts of money. We knew when the economy turned around we'll start growing again. Or so we thought. We have/had over 3 billion dollars ready to start growing again.

Then the Sept 27th announcement (or whatever the date was). Seniority progression just took another kick in the sack.

Look, I'm happy your guys are receiving enormous windfalls in pay and QOL. Some of your guys have just had their career expectations doubled. Your Captains are going to easily earn $80k more per year. FOs are looking at close to 100% improvements in annual compensation (even with the larger 401k match).

The SWA guys have little to look forward to, except for the possibility of further delays up the seniority ladder. We all wanted organic growth. We know we can do it.

I am at the base I want to be at. I get about my 10th choice in lines. Ditto vacation. The next thing for me (and many guys like me) is seat progression.

 

[dicko]

Ohhhh how nice! Kharma and SWAdude have just finished the SLI.

Reality check.......None of us knows how this will go down. Both NC's are going to spend the next 6 months to 2 years hammering out positions and running numbers. They are going to consult with the brightest (most expensive) attorneys and bankers around the country to build cases for their respective list. Eventually they will come to an agreement or an impasse. What ever the case....none of us knows how this will go down!!!

So with that everyone needs to chill and keep the blood pressure under control because this is the only sure shot.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhqyZeUlE8U

No.

PCL128 will cave when he's offered a bag of cheetos and a steak. He'll throw people under busses for a back rub from Leo and some cheese. He's proven this to be 100 % true so far.

Thankfully we have ALPA on our side. They made all the difference during our long struggle.

Kharma ..... I told you so.

 

[ivauir]

That's what I mean, Gup. If you add 138 airplanes and our understaffed pilot group to the mix, there will be an equal amount added to everything (or what is negotiated in the TA and JCBA plus newhires, so what are you losing?

Ty,

You are overstaffed by our manning model AND the fact that you have pilots on furlough (voluntary or not you have more pilots than you have jobs)

It is unreasonable for you to think you will gain in EVERY area in this transaction.

 

[The Prussian]

Ty,

AAI operates more pilots per plane than SWA. Once, the AAI fleet are up to SWA usage rate, we have growth potential without the addition of additional pilots. Delay up the seniority list.

11.8 vs. 10.8 (using our numbers from 27 Sept). It's only 1 pilot per plane, but it equates to roughly 9% excess (over SWA's ratio).

What are we loosing? Well for one, SWA is an older group. Before the announcement, we all had a projection of our age-based attrition seniority. I am sure you can understand how injecting younger guys senior to SWA guys will forever slow a SWA pilot's progression up the seniority ladder (as the AAI will forever be senior to the SWA guy). IOW, the only thing we have to loose is seniority progression and that is the possibility AAI brings, further seniority delays.

If you can't understand that concept, you'll never understand why SWA guys get on here and start throwing down.

One thing I learned in my Corps days was to not email with anger. So I try to keep emotion out of my replies. But, you can't say AAI does not take anything from SWA guys. The potential to take very lucrative discretionary flying (as a 5th year FO, discretionary flying usually runs in the 1 - 1.5k / day range), monthly lines, vacation, upgrade date, IOW all the things seniority brings is further delayed.

The last couple years SWA has been in accumulation mode, saving huge amounts of money. We knew when the economy turned around we'll start growing again. Or so we thought. We have/had over 3 billion dollars ready to start growing again.

Then the Sept 27th announcement (or whatever the date was). Seniority progression just took another kick in the sack.

Look, I'm happy your guys are receiving enormous windfalls in pay and QOL. Some of your guys have just had their career expectations doubled. Your Captains are going to easily earn $80k more per year. FOs are looking at close to 100% improvements in annual compensation (even with the larger 401k match).

The SWA guys have little to look forward to, except for the possibility of further delays up the seniority ladder. We all wanted organic growth. We know we can do it.

I am at the base I want to be at. I get about my 10th choice in lines. Ditto vacation. The next thing for me (and many guys like me) is seat progression.

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

What he said!!! Rare clarity on FI...

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

I think that sounds fair and reasonable. You guys have a 2 year fence restriction in your contract, correct? Can a senior pilot displace a junior pilot out of his domicile?

Our current contract only specifies that a seperate ops can be in place no longer that 24 months in the event of a merger or aquisition. Under current bidding rules a senior pilot can not bump a junior pilot out of his seat or domicile unless the senior pilot was displaced.

 

[texman]

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

what he said!!! Rare clarity on fi...

true!

 

[GuppyWN]

How about DOH with some seat protection language?

So you're cool with Airtran Captains that are 4 YEARS junior to our junior Captains taking that last of the Captain slots over 10 YEAR SWA FO's?

And you're cool with Craig having 1700 guys put in front of him?

Wow.

 

[Lear70]

So you're cool with Airtran Captains that are 4 YEARS junior to our junior Captains taking that last of the Captain slots over 10 YEAR SWA FO's?

And you're cool with Craig having 1700 guys put in front of him?

Wow.

I'm not advocating taking any UPCOMING CA slots, but if you're talking about our CURRENT CA's losing their seats...? Even ONE of them?

Fences make good neighbors. Not saying they have to be forever, but certainly a good 2-3 years to start... especially if the MC starts getting away from a relative seniority integration and starts working on some kind of blended DOH/ratio slotting solution.

 

[Kharma Police]

So you're cool with Airtran Captains that are 4 YEARS junior to our junior Captains taking that last of the Captain slots over 10 YEAR SWA FO's?

And you're cool with Craig having 1700 guys put in front of him?

Wow.

We won't be "taking" anything, we will be keeping the seat we are currently occupying and you keep your seniority. When new positions open up, you can upgrade based on your seniority. Those senior AirTran FOs inside the fence could be ratioed to upgrade within the current 3 AirTran bases. After two years, it becomes open season.

SWADude offered a solution which I found plausible and immediately you shoot it down. As I have already stated, go ahead and be honest (I don't care) and say you want a staple because that is exactly what I'm reading from your post.

 

[400ADude]

Is it true some of your scabs are trying to repay their past union dues so they are in good standing with the union. How many do you have over there?

There won't be relative seat seniority. Forget it. Just like there won't be a staple. Take what you get from SWAPA because if you don't then someone else might take your seat and I think you know what that means. SWA management will get involved.

 

[SWAdude]

So you're cool with Airtran Captains that are 4 YEARS junior to our junior Captains taking that last of the Captain slots over 10 YEAR SWA FO's?

And you're cool with Craig having 1700 guys put in front of him?

I didn't say anything of the sort. All what has been discovered is that there are points in the middle.

A staple is not going to happen. Neither is relative seniority. This forum will only be as good as feeling out the other side. What I have got so far with certainty is that the AT guys don't feel like the SWA guys are giving up anything. They look at increases as a natural given. SWA guys feel like the AT guys are getting a windfall without the appreciation of all we have earned in the past to help this airline be the most successful airline in the history of the universe.

Seniority is the only issue to be resolved. It will settle somewhere in the middle. This truly is an exercise in mental gymnastics. Nothing will come of this. BUT talk seriously to all you buds, people you fly with and the guys you pass the jet to or take it from and get them energized to call or write their union reps and leaders. I do. Several times already. We have much to lose if our union does not do their job right.

 

[SWAdude]

Our current contract only specifies that a seperate ops can be in place no longer that 24 months in the event of a merger or aquisition.

That is not true. That is for merger only. That is under Section 1 part C "MERGERS AND FRAGMENTATION".

Section 1 part E "PURCHASE OR ACQUISITION OF ANOTHER COMPANY" has no requirement for limiting separate operations.

 

[PapaWoody]

Those senior AirTran FOs inside the fence could be ratioed to upgrade within the current 3 AirTran bases. After two years, it becomes open season.

LMAO...not only do you think that 6 yr. AAI guys should keep their CA seat over 9 year SWA guys (at least it's somewhere in the universe of plausibility), now you are saying your "senior" F/O's (what is that, 5 yrs?) should upgrade ahead of senior SWA F/O's with 4 yrs. more longevity?!? Ladies and gentleman, Elvis has left the building! (and he took common sense with him when he went)

Amazed and Confused,
PapaWoody

 

[FDJ2]

Constructive Notice Date. Read about it, learn about it.

Understand what it it means and what it doesn't mean.

 

[FDJ2]

The fact that you guys are using USAirways' lawyer is not good news for anyone. He is known to take extreme and unrealistic positions and never move. I'm wondering if the extreme positions adopted by AII guys on this message board are the result of his coaching.

Ironically, I believe that the position the Airtran lawyer will take, may be exactly the same position SWAPA's lawyer has taken in the past. Should be interesting.

 

[Full of LUV]

Seniority is the only issue to be resolved. It will settle somewhere in the middle. This truly is an exercise in mental gymnastics. Nothing will come of this. BUT talk seriously to all you buds, people you fly with and the guys you pass the jet to or take it from and get them energized to call or write their union reps and leaders. I do. Several times already. We have much to lose if our union does not do their job right.

Why does SWAPA not even get a small bump in rates out of this merger? That would help them swallow the SLI at least an unforcasted pay raise.
When DAL and NWA merged, the NWA rates came way up to DAL's and all got some small raises to smooth over the process.
I see no reason why SWAPA is just content with accepting their current contract with this SLI on the horizon.
LUV

 

[Kharma Police]

LMAO...not only do you think that 6 yr. AAI guys should keep their CA seat over 9 year SWA guys (at least it's somewhere in the universe of plausibility), now you are saying your "senior" F/O's (what is that, 5 yrs?) should upgrade ahead of senior SWA F/O's with 4 yrs. more longevity?!? Ladies and gentleman, Elvis has left the building! (and he took common sense with him when he went)

Amazed and Confused,
PapaWoody

It's all good Woodrow, it's just a suggestion that I feel could make both sides happy if they are reasonable. The upgrades and fences could be tweaked if you like.

As far as pilots getting booting out of their positions. If you research almost every single mediated seniority list, you will find that people stay in their respective seats. Even AA/TWA had STL fenced off with people keeping their seats, (the problem was AA shrunk STL to oblivion). I would suggest you guys be a little bit more realistic that we will not be seat warmers for your senior FOs.

My final word on the subject will be, DOH with seat protections. With that I will bid you all, adieu. But just like MacArthur in the Philippines, I shall return, b!tches!

 

[ASADFW7]

This just in a spoke with a rocket scientist last night. They said hold onto your ankles everyone, and if you can't reach start stretching now, early and often, because it is going to get worse before it gets better.

They also said buy some white paint and a brush for the yearly maintenance for your new fence. The less agreeable the terms of SLI the longer there will be yearly maintenance for upkeep.

Other than that they said the Cowboys will still suck this year. Good day

 

[Sy-bill]

A staple to the entire AT seniority list would be much worse than a straight relative seniority integration. If this went to arbitration that would backfire for SWA pilots and put the SWA pilots in a bad light due to their lack of good will.

Going to arbitration will likely put up tall fences with respective bases even with bases shared by both airlines. There can be language that will protect AT pilots as long as they are at their base when the SLI is complete. Once you leave that base you are integrated into the entire SWA seniority with your likely DOH seniority. If you are forced to leave your seat and/or base (displacement) the same rules apply. This is just an example of how this will likely work with arbitration.

AT guys feel they have the edge with arbitration and I say not. The AT pilots need to negotiate for what is and not what they are afraid of. If the SWA union does not think you are being remotely reasonable, (relative seniority is not remotely reasonable. Neither is a staple for that matter) you might find the SWA pilots negotiating an interesting rate on the 717. Which I can assume they have no interest in anyways.

This is not a merger. This is an acquisition. The definition itself changes this playing field unlike any other seniority integration since M/B.

The AT pilots have found themselves in an enviable position. Great company, great pay, great benefits, great schedules with most importantly, a bright future. It would be a shame to mess it up for everyone because of a few year downgrade and a few percentage points in relative seniority.

 

[Lear70]

If the SWA union does not think you are being remotely reasonable, (relative seniority is not remotely reasonable. Neither is a staple for that matter) you might find the SWA pilots negotiating an interesting rate on the 717. Which I can assume they have no interest in anyways.

HIGHLY unlikely.

The JCBA will be in place with 717 rates LONG before the SLI is done. Both AAI ALPA and SWAPA are out there in Dallas working on the Process Agreement right now. The "successful" mergers are ones done where the JCBA is finalized long before the SLI is ever done, both sides know it, and I highly doubt we'll see a process agreement that has the SLI happening before the JCBA. As such, we'll know the 717 rates long before the SLI is ever even CLOSE to being done.

This is not a merger. This is an acquisition. The definition itself changes this playing field unlike any other seniority integration since M/B.

Funny how the 4 attorneys (3 ALPA, 1 outside counsel) are disagreeing with you. Seeing as this is their actual JOB, and not just an armchair hobby, I'm going with their answer. Thanks for your input, however.

 

[FDJ2]

If the SWA union does not think you are being remotely reasonable, (relative seniority is not remotely reasonable. Neither is a staple for that matter) you might find the SWA pilots negotiating an interesting rate on the 717. Which I can assume they have no interest in anyways.

The SWA pilots can negotiate any rate they want on the 717, but the AT pilots will continue to fly it under their PWA, until there is a JCBA.

Is there a transition agreement yet? If so, does it stipulate how a JCBA will be ratified, by both premerger groups independently, or by the post merger group?


It wouldn't make much sense to punish an aircraft, when pilots from both premerger airlines will likely fly it.

This is not a merger. This is an acquisition. The definition itself changes this playing field unlike any other seniority integration since M/B.

"By definition it changes the playing field?" Really? In what way? Please specify where that is written.

DAL acquired NWA, AWA acquired US in neither case did the nature of the corporate transaction play a role in the construction of the integrated seniority lists.

The AT pilots have found themselves in an enviable position. Great company, great pay, great benefits, great schedules with most importantly, a bright future. It would be a shame to mess it up for everyone because of a few year downgrade and a few percentage points in relative seniority.

That cuts both ways.

 

[Sy-bill]

Everyone has good points to share.

I may be incorrect with the DAL/NW and AWA/US mergers. I can not find where DAL and AWA purchased NW and US with a price. SWA is purchasing AT for 1.4 billion. How much did DAL and AWA spend on their acquisitions of NW and US?

 

[ivauir]

The JCBA will be in place with 717 rates LONG before the SLI is done.

Lear,

Our contract doesn't allow a reopener for an acquisition. There won't be a JCBA, you guys will come under our contract. Which is actually good news for everybody - it is a great contract, and it isn't at risk during this transaction.

 

[Mickey D]

Honestly, dude? If this what you guys think of our group?

Please don't lecture my group about fighting and sacrifice. You have had pillow fights in comparison to what we have been through. You are fortunate to work for an employer that recognizes and values your contributions. What have you sacrificed and fought for?, your ANR Headsets, 123 at the hotel, no hats? You have no idea what those words mean but if you are curious, ask the moderator, he can tell you all about it.

 

[Lear70]

Lear,

Our contract doesn't allow a reopener for an acquisition. There won't be a JCBA, you guys will come under our contract. Which is actually good news for everybody - it is a great contract, and it isn't at risk during this transaction.

Didn't say anything was at risk...

There's ALWAYS a JCBA during the transition period. That's simply how the process works. Now your management may simply say "AirTran pilots come under the SWA contract on DOCC" which, if agreed to, would end the discussion rather quickly (and also be an industry first).

However, if SWA management doesn't do that, there will be a period of time whereby each portion of our system, such as monthly bidding, vacation, scheduling rules, duty rigs, trip rigs, line construction, dues process, PAY, etc has to be transitioned into the Southwest system.

Doing that overnight would result in some rather unpleasant operational issues from a scheduling standpoint. This is why there's a JCBA.

As an aside, our two lead Negotiating Committee members along with our MEC Chair and Vice-Chair are out in Dallas doing JUST THAT right now. Started yesterday. If there's not going to be a JCBA, well, that would be news to our union leaders as that's one of the things they're out there discussing with SWAPA right this very second.

Actually, amusingly enough, there's a discussion about it going on inside our internal message board right now concerning who went out there for that and our MEC Vice-Chair just got on there and said the NC is out there because we're going to be negotiating the JCBA.

Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger, I have no position on the MEC or any committee...

 

[PapaWoody]

Lear,

Our contract doesn't allow a reopener for an acquisition. There won't be a JCBA, you guys will come under our contract. Which is actually good news for everybody - it is a great contract, and it isn't at risk during this transaction.

ivauir,
I do believe that our contract requires a re-opener for different aircraft types, which would cover having to negotiate terms for the 717 before they could come under our contract. I, however, don't believe that SWAPA would try to "punish" the AT guys by negotiating a low rate for 717 flying for two reasons. One, it would be construed by an arbitrator as being an extreme lack of good faith; and two, most importantly, it wouldn't be the right thing to do to our collective futures/culture. I would imagine that if GK wants us to fly the -800 for the same rates that we won't accept anything less for the 717's.

I would like to add that it is nice to see at least a small amount of reasonableness surfacing on this board. (If you squint, you can almost see it ) I'm not advocating any particular solution, but the initials DOH have been showing up a little more often, which maybe means that both sides aren't so entrenched in their positions that we won't be able to work something out between us. Nobody wins in arbitration, imo, and judging from looking at past decisions, the least reasonable group usually loses, again imo.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

 

[Lear70]

Honestly, dude? If this what you guys think of our group?

No, it's not.

The vast majority of our pilots are looking forward to working for such a great company. Truly.

You have to realize, we've been beat and battered for YEARS under hostile management. Our first instinct is to go on the defensive. It's going to take some time to get away from that...

 

[PapaWoody]

No, it's not.

The vast majority of our pilots are looking forward to working for such a great company. Truly.

You have to realize, we've been beat and battered for YEARS under hostile management. Our first instinct is to go on the defensive. It's going to take some time to get away from that...

So when I buy you a beer on an overnight, you promise not to bite me, right?

PapaW