Will NWA and the Mechs agree?

[Dizel8]

My opinion is yes. I think the Mechanics union will reach a last minute agreement, that is "sorry that some of you lose your job", but it is "the best we could achieve under the circumstances".

What say you all?

 

[TonyC]

My opinion is yes. I think the Mechanics union will reach a last minute agreement, that is "sorry that some of you lose your job", but it is "the best we could achieve under the circumstances".

What say you all?

Not a chance.




.

 

[Workin'Stiff]

I'm with TonyC... This union will not move an inch. This will just be the precurser to NW headin' through doors at bankruptcy court.

 

[PCL_128]

My opinion is yes. I think the Mechanics union will reach a last minute agreement, that is "sorry that some of you lose your job", but it is "the best we could achieve under the circumstances".

What say you all?

Only one problem with that: they won't be saying "sorry that some of you lose your job" to their members, they will be saying it to themselves. The entire leadership structure of NWA AMFA is in the group of proposed furloughs in the bottom half of the list. It's a huge conflict of interest, but it's just the way it is. The AMFA leadership is just not going to sign off an agreement that elliminates their own jobs. I don't see any way that a deal can be reached here. That being said, I don't think there should be much of a disruption as long as the FAs don't sympathy strike. Most of the Mech line-maintenance positions in the hubs can be filled with SCABs they've been training for months, and the outstation and heavy maintenance can contracted out fairly easily. NWA management has gamed this out rather well. The only wild card is the FAs. If they sympathy strike, then all bets are off as to what happens to NWA.

 

[General Lee]

The head of the MSP LEC council is one of the guys who will lose his job. I had read that over half of the mechanics were due to lose their jobs. That just doesn't sound good.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Workin'Stiff]

I was told by my step-mother, who is a NW flight attendant, that she recieved a phone call from the FA manager. She was informed that if she did not show up for work during the mech's work stoppage, this would be viewed as a sympathy strike and she would be fired. This phone call, and I now hear a letter, was going out to all FA's...

 

[WillowRunVortex]

I was told by my step-mother, who is a NW flight attendant, that she recieved a phone call from the FA manager. She was informed that if she did not show up for work during the mech's work stoppage, this would be viewed as a sympathy strike and she would be fired. This phone call, and I now hear a letter, was going out to all FA's...

Inform your step-mother of this:

"First and foremost, our Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) contains no provision which expressly prohibits Flight Attendants from supporting our fellow employees by engaging in a work stoppage, with the exception of Letter of Agreement 2 which requires the continuation of military flights in the event of a labor dispute. PFAA and its legal counsel firmly believe that, contrary to company statements to the media and in employee communications, the Flight Attendants do have a legal right, both under our contract and Federal law, to honor another Unions picket line."

 

[skykid]

Maybe we can get a repeat of the situation that happened at another airline in the 80s. 500 and something pilots were trained as replacements. When the big day came almost to a man they didn't go thru with it - Checkmate.

I have heard NWA mgt has FA replacements in the wings as well. If there is a strike and Northwest goes on anywhere close to business as usual, we have seen the knockout blow to airline unions. Should be interesting.

I have lots of Northwest pilot buddies and I wish them the best.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Maybe we can get a repeat of the situation that happened at another airline in the 80s. 500 and something pilots were trained as replacements. When the big day came almost to a man they didn't go thru with it - Checkmate.

I have heard NWA mgt has FA replacements in the wings as well. If there is a strike and Northwest goes on anywhere close to business as usual, we have seen the knockout blow to airline unions. Should be interesting.

I have lots of Northwest pilot buddies and I wish them the best.

NWA has 1200 replacement FA's trained. There are over 10,000 active flight attendants. Now I wasnt a math major, but if this were a street fight I know which "gang's" side I would be on. The PFAA is voting now, and can vote up til one minute before the AMFA strike dead-line.

 

[WatchYourElbows]

Maybe we can get a repeat of the situation that happened at another airline in the 80s. 500 and something pilots were trained as replacements. When the big day came almost to a man they didn't go thru with it - Checkmate.

QUOTE]

Yes, that group was UNITED!!!! 570!!!!

 

[skykid]

Roger. You have to wonder if the FAs do decide as a group to walk, how many will still go to work. No question this has the potential to absolutely cripple the airline. I know from experience when there is a disruption in service, most consumers don't care who is wrong or right, they are POed regardless.

 

[schafjet]

WorkinStiff,

The union won't give and inch? What about the management team?
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This is ridiculous, it was just reported in the MSP paper that the top 4 executives just got a bonus of about $1.something million in stock options. Granted, the stock isn't worth much but it could be if things work out.

Also, there are other variables at work here too. Teamsters just announced that they will honor the picket line. So UPS and other teamsters will not be throwing any Cargo business or other business to NWA. That will hurt them.

Lastly, NWA pissed off the only union they had on their side. The pilots union was encouraging all unions to do their share of cuts. So what does NWA do to thank them for their support? They go and use Champion Air to fly NWA passengers on NWA routes, a clear violation of ALPA's NWA's contract (I believe that is in regards to scope). So now the pilots are thinking a little more about sympathy and not crossing the picket line.

Steeland is getting some bad advice from somewhere, but that's typical. I have lived here in MSP for almost all my life and NWA has never, ever had a good working relationship with its employees.

Oh, by the way. I don't work for NWA. So I don't have an ax to grind. I just think it is terrible how they treat their employees and the traveling public for that matter.

To answer the first question. I don't think there will be a settlement. There is just too much bad blood on both sides of the table.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Roger. You have to wonder if the FAs do decide as a group to walk, how many will still go to work. No question this has the potential to absolutely cripple the airline. I know from experience when there is a disruption in service, most consumers don't care who is wrong or right, they are POed regardless.

My family has had the "come to Jesus" discussion over this. We've decided what’s right is right and what’s wrong is wrong. My wife is going to vote her conscience. If NWA goes into the history books, so be it.

 

[wheelsup]

Did you ever think they WANT these guys to strike, so they have a reason to declare bankruptcy? The unions are just like pawns in managements hands right now...

~wheelsup

 

[MickeySlapnutz]

My opinion is yes. I think the Mechanics union will reach a last minute agreement, that is "sorry that some of you lose your job", but it is "the best we could achieve under the circumstances".

What say you all?

My guess is they will strike. The FA's will strike as well....only to be ordered back to work by some judge minutes after they walk until a "full hearing" can be heard by the court. The pilots will come up with some lame excuse for crossing the picket line. At this point....NWA management will file for CH11 and gut what is left of the CBA's. NWA pilots will scream and yell all the way, but never bite the bullet and walk. FA's will strike again only to be ordered back to work....again.....by the BK judge. When its all over....it will look like United but only 1/3 the size. Pinnacle will grow like a weed during all this only to be later replaced by Mesa or some alter ego airline.

Bottom line......one big sh!t sandwich.

 

[Workin'Stiff]

Inform your step-mother of this:

"First and foremost, our Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) contains no provision which expressly prohibits Flight Attendants from supporting our fellow employees by engaging in a work stoppage, with the exception of Letter of Agreement 2 which requires the continuation of military flights in the event of a labor dispute. PFAA and its legal counsel firmly believe that, contrary to company statements to the media and in employee communications, the Flight Attendants do have a legal right, both under our contract and Federal law, to honor another Unions picket line."

Well, all I have to say is that with management's track record, they will hold to their word and send those FA's packin' that don't show up for work. They obviously don't care about CBA's as evident by this week's Champion flying. They'll fire some FA's over this deal and worry about it later in the grievence process. So, its really gonna put the FA's in a bad spot if they are told from PFAA to not to go work, and then they are informed by NW that they are no longer employed.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Well, all I have to say is that with management's track record, they will hold to their word and send those FA's packin' that don't show up for work. They obviously don't care about CBA's as evident by this week's Champion flying. They'll fire some FA's over this deal and worry about it later in the grievence process. So, its really gonna put the FA's in a bad spot if they are told from PFAA to not to go work, and then they are informed by NW that they are no longer employed.

The PFAA membership is solid,,,management cannot send them all "packing". They have 1200 replacements trained. It takes 10,000 to run the airline. Your tone is typical NWA ALPA. Look where their "cooperation" with management got them.

 

[Workin'Stiff]

WorkinStiff,

The union won't give and inch? What about the management team?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
This is ridiculous, it was just reported in the MSP paper that the top 4 executives just got a bonus of about $1.something million in stock options. Granted, the stock isn't worth much but it could be if things work out.

Also, there are other variables at work here too. Teamsters just announced that they will honor the picket line. So UPS and other teamsters will not be throwing any Cargo business or other business to NWA. That will hurt them.

Lastly, NWA pissed off the only union they had on their side. The pilots union was encouraging all unions to do their share of cuts. So what does NWA do to thank them for their support? They go and use Champion Air to fly NWA passengers on NWA routes, a clear violation of ALPA's NWA's contract (I believe that is in regards to scope). So now the pilots are thinking a little more about sympathy and not crossing the picket line.

Steeland is getting some bad advice from somewhere, but that's typical. I have lived here in MSP for almost all my life and NWA has never, ever had a good working relationship with its employees.

Oh, by the way. I don't work for NWA. So I don't have an ax to grind. I just think it is terrible how they treat their employees and the traveling public for that matter.

To answer the first question. I don't think there will be a settlement. There is just too much bad blood on both sides of the table.

I totally agree with you. It's really a bad deal. And yes, both side are to the point where its even fruitless to talk. Management won't budge from the $176m in savings from AMFA and I just read in the WSJ yesterday that the president of AMFA is standing firmly on the thought that NW mech's should be getting paid $100k. Now, there is just too much of a span there for even the most optimistic person to believe that middle-ground can be found.

 

[Workin'Stiff]

The PFAA membership is solid,,,management cannot send them all "packing". They have 1200 replacements trained. It takes 10,000 to run the airline. Your tone is typical NWA ALPA. Look where their "cooperation" with management got them.

I just happen to be alittle more of a realist. That's all. And frankly, from my perspective, I don't see the PFAA membership as solid as you might. I know that the 1200 replacements cannot run the airline. However, it's also unrealistic to think that every single one of the card-holding FA's will walk. How many will cross?? I have no idea. Mangement knows this, hence the reason for the scare tactic thats being placed on the phone and in the mailboxes. Maybe their goal is to incite as many as possible to cross that line if need be...

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Management won't budge from the $176m in savings from AMFA and I just read in the WSJ yesterday that the president of AMFA is standing firmly on the thought that NW mech's should be getting paid $100k. Now, there is just too much of a span there for even the most optimistic person to believe that middle-ground can be found.

Workin, I just want to clarify with you the fact that NWA management wants a 53% permanent reduction in mechanics ranks. You sound as if both parties are being unreasonable. The only choice (as of now) for the mech's is a yes or no for the elimination of more than half their work force! How could anyone vote yes to this?

Explain...

 

[Workin'Stiff]

Yes, both parties are being unreasonable. Yes, it is outrageous that management wants/needs to cut 53% of the AMFA workforce. And yes, it is outrageous that AMFA believes that mechanics should be paid $100K. There are many sides to an argument.

I don't envy the decisions that both the mechanics and managment have to make. Mechanics are potentially deciding on their employment future. Managment is deciding on the employment future of roughly 40,000 employees worldwide. There are a lot of issues on both parties shoulders; all making those decisions they have to make all that more difficult.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Yes, both parties are being unreasonable. Yes, it is outrageous that management wants/needs to cut 53% of the AMFA workforce. And yes, it is outrageous that AMFA believes that mechanics should be paid $100K. There are many sides to an argument.

.

You are mixing apples and oranges. It is irrelevant what one "thinks" an NWA mechanic should be paid. The AMFA's OFFICIAL position in the negotiations is $143 million in concessions. This is not unreasonable. This is only 36 million from what NWA management wants but wont BUDGE on. 36 million (per year) relatively speaking, is the difference from everyone taxiing on 2 engines instead of one. A DAY! I can already see that the problem at NWA is the employees dont know/have the facts.

 

[schafjet]

Workin'Stiff

I don't know where you got 100k, I think you said the WSJ. However, I think the mechanics are saying they "should" be payed 100k. They are in fact putting a concessionary contract on the table and not "asking" for 100k. So, they are not trying to negotiate for 100k. I think I "should" make what a pro ball player makes, but I'm not getting that and my union is not negotiating that either. What you want and what you get are two different things. You get what you negotiate, not what you want. Big difference.

 

[Workin'Stiff]

You know what, you're right, you always will be right. I'm going to find something alittle more productive to do with my day than bicker with you.

I can already see that the problem at NWA is the employees dont know/have the facts.

But this is where you're wrong. I'm with Mesaba.

 

[Workin'Stiff]

Alright, I just reread the article. I concede. I misread it. I stand corrected.

 

[schafjet]

Workin'Stiff

It's okay, we know what you meant Thanks for correcting yourself. It takes a big person to do that, espescially on this forum.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Workin'Stiff

It's okay, we know what you meant Thanks for correcting yourself. It takes a big person to do that, espescially on this forum.

Yeah thanks workin,

I know I sound worked up, I apologize too. I am worked up. I think everyone is very frustrated with NWA management right now, and it shows.

 

[ultrarunner]

I posted this once but didn't get an answer.....

Is NWA contractually prohibited from just fuloughing mechanics?

If not, why doesn't the company just start doing that. I find it hard to believe that manangement HAS to have both...meaning both pay cuts and 2000 layoffs...

what's going on that I'm missing?

 

[WillowRunVortex]

I posted this once but didn't get an answer.....

Is NWA contractually prohibited from just fuloughing mechanics?

If not, why doesn't the company just start doing that. I find it hard to believe that manangement HAS to have both...meaning both pay cuts and 2000 layoffs...

what's going on that I'm missing?

Because they are at their minimum staffing levels now. They want to fire 53% of the AMFA mech's and outsource that level to third party vendors at cheaper rates.

Also,

In reality they want to do away with the AMFA period. That is why they will not budge.

Thirdly it is their quickest way into BK if the AMFA strikes. This is what management wants so it can quickly take care of the PFAA,,,and eventually go back to the pilots and rape them.

 

[ultrarunner]

okey dokey...I'm up to speed now...

Sounds like a plan allright