Why the H is ALPA Advocating MPL Licensing?!

[PCL_128]

You saw American leave as well. And I doubt they are ever coming back.

I think they'll probably be back in 10-15 years, possibly less.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You saw American leave as well. And I doubt they are ever coming back. I so appreciated the way APA fought 65 like their membership wanted them to do. In my book APA is better.

Why did the American guys leave? It was ego's and pride. Pretty much the same with USAPA. The money those USAIR guys are losing monthly because of pride is not worth it. Do they want to take care of their families or be right? They want to be right.

APA on age 65? They took a position but how effective was it? Anybody can say anything... but what influence did it have?

The APA will be back. or ALPA can merge with the APA. The AMR (all of us actually) pilots are going to be dealing with globalization forces that will force them to ally with international pilot groups.

ALPA's only chance IMHO is to suffer through the last late 70s hire, baby boomer member and see what we have left. Just about every despicable anti union act that has happened in ALPA has been because of these pilots. When thye were junior they wrecked merger policy and when they were senior they screwed with retirement age. I don't know what their final act will be, but I'm not looking forward to it.

Valid point... but this is politics unfortunately. What are the real alternatives? The more pilot groups ALPA represents to more conflicts it will have. The question is are pilot groups better off as indy groups?

With the impact of globalization, being a in house group like SWAPA, APA and IPA is in my opinion is dangerous. It is not a matter of just operating to foreign cities. The impact of what labor group is going to do the flying is the issue.

Currently ALPA is working on putting in LPPs or Labor Protection Provisions is COngressional legislation. This is huge.

Tell you this: I'm happy with CAL ALPA. I think IACP could have managed things to this point well enough. I have zero anxiety about a possible "no ALPA" scenario. If ALPA's current leadership, with the current political climate, can't manage duty time overhaul to a clear victory for pilots, close it down.

Well, what are the other in house unions doing to manage duty time? CAPA is there... but that is a point. They have formed a coalition of pilot groups, not unlike ALPA's MECs.

Again, with ALPA representing so many pilot groups, like the 50 states, conflict is inevitable. The good leaders will use conflict to build trust and respect and effectiveness. This is no easy task and is not exclusive of ALPA. This is a human dynamics realm that effects any organization. Don't put the onus on ALPA....

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Again, with ALPA representing so many pilot groups, like the 50 states, conflict is inevitable. The good leaders will use conflict to build trust and respect and effectiveness. This is no easy task and is not exclusive of ALPA. This is a human dynamics realm that effects any organization. Don't put the onus on ALPA....

This is the same problem with both the Dems and Reps. Bother parties have quite a few members that are farther left and right than the mainstream, and, the bigger the organization is, the harder it is to make everyone happy, and the more compromise there is. If the leadership isn't up to the task, then the large organization will break apart.

The best example of the larger organization breaking up is Religion. We, here on Earth, have one God, but how many religions are there. With Christianity, how many varietes of Christian religion do we have.

I think it is better to have ALPA represent ALL US pilots, but it is NOT easy!!!

cliff
NBO

 

[JoeMerchant]

Why did the American guys leave? It was ego's and pride.

Here are some facts to counter Rez's ALPA cheerleading:

http://www.alliedpilots.org/Public/AboutAPA/Background/apa_the_details.asp

ALPA has always tried to silence dissenting opinions...It will be it's downfall....

 

[Skywest Pylot]

ALPA has always tried to silence dissenting opinions...It will be it's downfall....

I have to agree with Joe on this one. ALPA National has COMPLETELY lost touch with the majority of its membership. Why has there not been a poll of some type on Max Daily Flight Time, Max Duty Time or MPL? Prater does not want our opinion and doesn't seem to care what we think. IMO, unless something significant changes, pilot groups will continue to splinter off until ALPA is irrelevant. People don't like taxation without representation. Unfortunately for me that sums up ALPA National. Prater has got to go.

 

[PCL_128]

Flight time/duty time is being decided by science. We would get no involvement in the process if we tried to allow majority rule to decide something that is supposed to be science-based.

As far as MPL, I would imagine that ALPA would poll the membership before it becomes an issue, but that's a long way down the road. MPL isn't even on the radar screen yet.

 

[igneousy2]

ALPA will not poll because of the fiasco of the age 65 BS. They ALREADY know what they are going to do so no sense risking a poll that will be against them.

I have been a long time ALPA defender not as ALPA per say but because it's our union. However, our union is BROKEN. ALPA has forgotten what it's primary job is. It is not safety, It's not fuel efficiency, or Material Arrestor Beds, or what the training programs look like, It is preserving this profesion...or i'll put it more bluntly...ALPA's job is to ensure the members extract the highest career earnings possible. ALPA should only spend resources on other things when it helps the profesion. ALPA has forgotten that. Look at how many frekin committees we have...we have R & I, safety, engineering, jumpseat, and on and on but where is the PAY or the JOB PRESERVATION committees? Those are the only things that should be important to ALPA, safety is secondary...

If I want to donante money to SAFETY I'll donate to the Air Safety Foundation...I pay the 1.9% first and foremost so our union can protect my chosen proffesion period.

 

[Flopgut]

APA on age 65? They took a position but how effective was it? Anybody can say anything... but what influence did it have?

APA had influence, they just didn't win. What they have now is credibility, which is short supply at ALPA. 65 was beat. Nobody thought it was going to get pulled out of the transportation bill.

The APA will be back. or ALPA can merge with the APA.

Sign me up for that! I would much rather send money to APA.


Currently ALPA is working on putting in LPPs or Labor Protection Provisions is COngressional legislation. This is huge.

And it would be superfulous if ALPA would have followed them in the first place!

So I like your idea. Let's sign up with APA.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

APA had influence, they just didn't win. What they have now is credibility, which is short supply at ALPA. 65 was beat. Nobody thought it was going to get pulled out of the transportation bill.

You are going to have to show me the APA influence. How many congressmen voted against age 65?

The APA will be back. or ALPA can merge with the APA.

Sign me up for that! I would much rather send money to APA.

Well, I spoke about needing representation on the int'l scene, but you didn't include that in your selective quotes.

But hey... convince that the APA is way to go, all while addressing the fact that they are a one pilot group union and compare that to ALPA being a multi pilot group union representing regionals as well.....

Basically if the APA represented 55,000 pilots including mainline and regionals, and ALPA represented one mainline pilot group... you'd be saying APA stinks and sign me up for ALPA....

Currently ALPA is working on putting in LPPs or Labor Protection Provisions is COngressional legislation. This is huge.

And it would be superfulous if ALPA would have followed them in the first place!

Explain.

So I like your idea. Let's sign up with APA.

The same problems would exist with a large organization representing multiple pilot groups including regionals. It is not the name on sign. It is the dynamics of the group....

 

[Mamma]

Obviously you know little of fighting dirty or for fighting for effect. How would a commercial aired during prime time showing reps/senators who are going to vote for something ALPA says is flat out unsafe? The commercial could show someones kids getting on a plane crewed by an inexperienced pilot (new MPL'er) and an old worn out captain. How about Prater getting on the "Today Show," "The View" and "Good Morning America" and telling all the soccer moms how unsafe flying could become due to this or that. All I am saying is there are ways to PUSH for your agenda rather than being reactionary or concessionary. 55,000 flying professionals who millions of people put their lives in the hands of could get their point out. ALPA could have made the Colgan crash their own "Willie Horton" to gain concessions. People CARE about what professional pilots think because they trust us to get them from A to B safely. Any time something happens in regards to a plane accident, start counting how many friends and neighbors start seeking your opinion on the matter....

Negative. This will not happen because it is suicide. Wanting or believe this is a solution is a false consciousness.

55,000 pilots are but a drop in the national ocean. There are 300 million consumers, plus the international market that want what ALPA wants but they don't want to pay for it.

Pilots are black and white guys. When the put a control column input or flip a switch they expect a direct predictable result.

Politics is the opposite. Grey and uncertain. Democracy is slow and arduous. Unlike 99% flights that are wins in every landing... politics is sometimes a win and sometimes a loss....

One of the major problems with Air Line Pilots is they don't like politics, yet it is everything when it comes to their career.

No one ever said during flight training "I hope I am politically effective in my Air Line Career"

 

[Flopgut]

[/COLOR]You are going to have to show me the APA influence. How many congressmen voted against age 65?

You know as well as I do that if even one Congressperson voted no during that particuliar session the vote would have failed. APA's competeing opinion to what was seemingly ALPA's [Prater's] got some media attention. It's not like it was a contest. There was a 40 year old prevailing rule that most supported. Prater pulled a stunt, that's all. It was not a "win".

Well, I spoke about needing representation on the int'l scene, but you didn't include that in your selective quotes.

I don't know what you think ALPA can accomplish on a global scale that another union can't? Other than screw up? Specifically: The RLA. We're the only nation of pilots in the world with that yoke around our neck. We ought to be able to leverage what oversight has done to us with that POS into some advantage but John is sitting on it (at this moment) until he can figure out how to make it work for the top guys firstmost. It's really sad.


But hey... convince that the APA is way to go, all while addressing the fact that they are a one pilot group union and compare that to ALPA being a multi pilot group union representing regionals as well.....

Basically if the APA represented 55,000 pilots including mainline and regionals, and ALPA represented one mainline pilot group... you'd be saying APA stinks and sign me up for ALPA....

You forget that ALPA is the third union I've been in as a pilot. IACP represented a regional and a major. I was mostly happy with their functionality as a union; They did some good things. I was happy with IBT also.



Explain.



The same problems would exist with a large organization representing multiple pilot groups including regionals. It is not the name on sign. It is the dynamics of the group....

Allegeny/Mohawk were LPPs. Who figured out how to short circuit those? ALPA! Young guys hired in the late 70s at UAL didn't want the extraordinary pace of upgrades to be stopped by mergers or merger policy. So they found a way to ignore it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Obviously you know little of fighting dirty or for fighting for effect. How would a commercial aired during prime time showing reps/senators who are going to vote for something ALPA says is flat out unsafe? The commercial could show someones kids getting on a plane crewed by an inexperienced pilot (new MPL'er) and an old worn out captain. How about Prater getting on the "Today Show," "The View" and "Good Morning America" and telling all the soccer moms how unsafe flying could become due to this or that. All I am saying is there are ways to PUSH for your agenda rather than being reactionary or concessionary. 55,000 flying professionals who millions of people put their lives in the hands of could get their point out. ALPA could have made the Colgan crash their own "Willie Horton" to gain concessions. People CARE about what professional pilots think because they trust us to get them from A to B safely. Any time something happens in regards to a plane accident, start counting how many friends and neighbors start seeking your opinion on the matter....

In order to do what you are talking about, 55,000 Air Line Pilots have to be ready to demonstrate.

If you want Prater or the President of ALPA to charge out of the foxhole (Today Show), then there needs to be an army of Air Line Pilots charging behind him.

Do you think Air Line Pilots are ready to do that?

In addition, what you are asking for is pay raises, better work rules, retirement... etc... basically economic. Is safety really an issue? Colgan pointed out flaws, but also, until Colgan, the safety record had been unbeatable. The best year in history.

What Air Line Pilots have done as professionals, is agreed to via democratic vote, concessionary CBAs during the BK era, all while making the NAS the safest it has ever been.

So what is the Today Show message?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You know as well as I do that if even one Congressperson voted no during that particuliar session the vote would have failed. APA's competeing opinion to what was seemingly ALPA's [Prater's] got some media attention. It's not like it was a contest. There was a 40 year old prevailing rule that most supported. Prater pulled a stunt, that's all. It was not a "win".

All right.....

Well, I spoke about needing representation on the int'l scene, but you didn't include that in your selective quotes.

I don't know what you think ALPA can accomplish on a global scale that another union can't? Other than screw up? Specifically: The RLA. We're the only nation of pilots in the world with that yoke around our neck. We ought to be able to leverage what oversight has done to us with that POS into some advantage but John is sitting on it (at this moment) until he can figure out how to make it work for the top guys firstmost. It's really sad.

Love that capitalism.

Not sure Prater is doing that...

But hey... convince that the APA is way to go, all while addressing the fact that they are a one pilot group union and compare that to ALPA being a multi pilot group union representing regionals as well.....

Basically if the APA represented 55,000 pilots including mainline and regionals, and ALPA represented one mainline pilot group... you'd be saying APA stinks and sign me up for ALPA....

You forget that ALPA is the third union I've been in as a pilot. IACP represented a regional and a major. I was mostly happy with their functionality as a union; They did some good things. I was happy with IBT also.

All I am saying is ALPA gets some understanding that it has multi groups. If you want to view that as a double edge sword, ok. But there is strength in numbers.

Allegeny/Mohawk were LPPs. Who figured out how to short circuit those? ALPA! Young guys hired in the late 70s at UAL didn't want the extraordinary pace of upgrades to be stopped by mergers or merger policy. So they found a way to ignore it.

All the more reason to stay engaged in career politics. The UAL guys have done some shi tty acts.....

 

[Flopgut]

Love that capitalism.

I'm not sure the RLA has much to do with capialism any longer? Post bailout era and after what the ATSB did to airline pilots, it's time we insist that we get a seat at the table as true capitalists. No more forced labor, no more runaway shops, no more tearing up contracts so easily. We're close to some HUGE leverage in this profession. There aren't that many of us. When the old guys wither away (and they will) there won't be enough of us to even run this MPL thing the thread is about!? Age 65 delayed it, but it will eventually exacerbate the problem. (Wait til we see these guys get close to a bite at the apple, and then have to go. And then figure out they are too old to enjoy their [years or months] of retirement)

Workers in this country who build marginal, expensive cars had their professions protected and nurtured by government bailouts. And they DO NOT work under the RLA. If they did, we could all buy Chevys for 25 grand. I don't want to see the UAW lose any more than they have, but I want us to get what we can in a fair, competitive environment.

In the absence of that, and the RLA continuing to prevail, The LPPs and job protections we deserve are numerous. But Prater wants to pick and choose those carefully because ALPA is the biggest offender. He may want to covet another one of these for a little more money.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Change is inevitable... fighting change is not...

MPL might happen. I don't think labor can stop it if it does. The best is to be a part of the process.....

Cabatoge and Foreign ownership might happen as well... can labor stop that cold? Not sure... again... the ability to influence the policy is key....

On a seperate note... any traction on the RBB... it sounds like a great idea...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

• October 2, 2009, 12:39 PM ET

Airline Labor Showdowns Unlikely Anytime Soon


Both American and United airlines have major labor negotiations underway, but travelers don’t need to worry about any major flight-disrupting showdowns anytime soon. The National Mediation Board isn’t going to let that happen.
That’s the view of two long-time airline industry labor experts, one on each side of the bargaining table. At a recent American Bar Association aviation conference, Russ Bailey, senior attorney at the Air Line Pilots Association, and Jerry Glass, a longtime negotiator for airline management, both said the Mediation Board is unlikely to set up any major labor confrontations while the economy is weak.
“The reality is our economy is in such a fragile state that the notion of the Mediation Board rushing through and creating the potential to put 70,000 or 80,000 people out of work – I don’t see it,” said Mr. Glass.
Airline industry labor disputes almost always fall to federal mediators to try to resolve once the two sides reach an impasse. Strikes or lockouts can happen only after the Mediation Board releases both parties into a 30-day cooling off period. Even then strikes can be averted by presidential intervention.
By all accounts, several of the major unions, including pilots, at both AMR Corp.’s American and UAL Corp.’s United are far apart in negotiations. Airline workers took huge pay, benefit and retirement cuts after the 2001 terrorist attacks and are itching to get some of it back. You can see the bag tags on crew bags at airports, slogans like, “We’re worth it.’’
Large bonuses handed to CEOs and other managers ratcheted up tensions at big airlines, including American and United.
But none of that means travelers will have to be on the lookout for a showdown that could lead to widespread delays, cancellations or even shutdowns.
“The board will only use cooling off when it’s close enough to get a resolution,’’ predicted Mr. Bailey.
Mr. Glass thinks it’s all about the economy. “The Mediation Board will be careful to not do anything to make this economy go backwards,” he said. “You’ll see a lot of care being taken before anyone gets in that situation.”

 

[spacecadet1]

Back in the day, the weaker pilots flying for the regionals or in the military ended up in two places: corporate or the FAA.

 

[Flopgut]

On a seperate note... any traction on the RBB... it sounds like a great idea...

Poorly, I'm afraid.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Poorly, I'm afraid.

Did it ever get to the EB?

 

[Slick]

".........To ensure that adequate EXPERIENCE, (emphisis added) is received by the pilot through the MPL process, an airline should be linked with an FTO providing such training to pilots to ensure that their SOPs are taught and equipment trained on during the entire training process."


Why is this so hard to understand:

YOU CAN’T “TEACH” EXPERIENCE!!!!!!
IT DOESN’T COME FROM A BOOK!!!
IT DOESN’T COME FROM A “MENTOR” PROGRAM!!!
IT DOESN’T COME FROM AN “F.T.O.’s”, S.O.P.’s”, OR “F.T.D.’s”.
EXPERIENCE COMES FROM….. EXPERIENCE!!!
* Hours flown,
* Types of aircraft flown,
* Types of flying performed, (121, 135, military, fractional, corporate, or CFI)
* PIC/SIC
* Geography, airspace, and weather.




http://public.alpa.org/portals/alpa/pressroom/inthecockpit/ProducingProfessionalPilot_9-2009.pdf