Why the H is ALPA Advocating MPL Licensing?!

[atpcliff]

Hi!

skywest pylot:

I remember a time at SkyWest that due to WX and "Legal to start, legal to finnish" I flew 9 hours in a day. It was on 12.5 hours of duty time. I was extremely fatigued.

First, the reason that you flew 9 hours is because the FAA allows their rules to be interpreted differently across the nation, and that has to stop.
At Trans States, your 9 hours of flying would not have been allowed. We were taught that you could not Block Out, or Takeoff, on ANY leg, if you could not complete the leg within your Duty and Flight Time limits. I think your airline, like many others, interprets the reg so that if you are scheduled legally at the beginning of the day, you can fly every leg, even if you know you will be over your flight time limits. That interpretation is wrong, but it doesn't stop many FSDOs/POIs from saying it is OK.

Secondly, with these new rules, I'm 90% sure what you did will NOT be allowed if the ALPA policies are adopted. If you didn't start your trip in the beginning of the day, your schedule would not be allowed. AND, if you flew more than "X" legs, which you probably did, again, your schedule would not be allowed.

cliff
NBO

 

[Skywest Pylot]

Secondly, with these new rules, I'm 90% sure what you did will NOT be allowed if the ALPA policies are adopted.

Uhhh....isn't ALPA proposing raising the max flight hours allowed in a day to 9hrs?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I must be confused, I thought the congressional hearings and FAA mandates were gonna be about SAFETY and pilot pay (or the lack thereof)?

The congressional hearings are for show ponies... so the senators can say they care.....

It is political......

How much political leverage ALPA has is the issue.... and how much ALPA members understand how the politics work..

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Then we pool our money and resources to support an organization that represents us.

Like USAPA?

Look, if you support another organization the same issues will arise. It is human dynamics and nature you are dealing with. Not ALPA per se.

 

[PCL_128]

I agree. The ALPA founding fathers are rolling over in their graves right now. This is disgraceful.

The ALPA founding fathers would be crying from sheer joy that we're finally getting to do what we've wanted to do for so long: implement new flight/duty regulations based on science.

The only thing I support is ATP Mins to fly 121, Period! Members of Congress seem to support this. Why not ALPA or Babbit (former ALPA)?

ALPA does support this. Have you watched the congressional hearings from last week? Captain Prater clearly stated that he supported the House resolution mandating 1500 hours and an ATP for anyone hired to work at a 121 carrier.

I think your airline, like many others, interprets the reg so that if you are scheduled legally at the beginning of the day, you can fly every leg, even if you know you will be over your flight time limits. That interpretation is wrong, but it doesn't stop many FSDOs/POIs from saying it is OK.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that that interpretation is wrong. The FAA Chief Counsel in Washington is the only office allowed to interpret the regulations, and your interpretation is clearly incorrect according to them. I'm not sure if you're an ALPA member, but if you are, log into the ALPA website and go to the Flight Time/Duty Time guide. All of the current regulations are clearly explained, and all of them come from official rulings.

 

[Sedona16]

The sooner ALPA quits operation under the notion such and such is going to happen anyway so we gotta get onboard in some form, the sooner they will shore up the flagging support and credibility from its members. In the end this is the only way the organization will ever be very effective.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The sooner ALPA quits operation under the notion such and such is going to happen anyway so we gotta get onboard in some form, the sooner they will shore up the flagging support and credibility from its members. In the end this is the only way the organization will ever be very effective.

Negative. This will not happen because it is suicide. Wanting or believe this is a solution is a false consciousness.

55,000 pilots are but a drop in the national ocean. There are 300 million consumers, plus the international market that want what ALPA wants but they don't want to pay for it.

Pilots are black and white guys. When the put a control column input or flip a switch they expect a direct predictable result.

Politics is the opposite. Grey and uncertain. Democracy is slow and arduous. Unlike 99% flights that are wins in every landing... politics is sometimes a win and sometimes a loss....

One of the major problems with Air Line Pilots is they don't like politics, yet it is everything when it comes to their career.

No one ever said during flight training "I hope I am politically effective in my Air Line Career"

 

[instructordude]

So now you want me to give IOE without even getting payd the extra $$. And you must have never flown with a low time F/O straight from training. It can be very laborious, to the point where id rather fly my jet single pilot.
Sorry, but your perspective lacks a foundation in experience.

Take care.
Joe.

You may not get paid anything extra but you will help out the company, which will help you out in the long run. Mentoring a young and eager pilot can be rewarding and is pay in itself. Don't sell your self short.

As far as perspective, i have instructed over 500 hrs in airplanes ranging from 152's, 172's all the way up to a 310. Flying is flying so get over the its a jet so it so much harder. Just this bros opinion though.


Take care.
Idude

 

[Scope out RJ's]

You may not get paid anything extra but you will help out the company, which will help you out in the long run. Mentoring a young and eager pilot can be rewarding and is pay in itself. Don't sell your self short.

As far as perspective, i have instructed over 500 hrs in airplanes ranging from 152's, 172's all the way up to a 310. Flying is flying so get over the its a jet so it so much harder. Just this bros opinion though.


Take care.
Idude

This guy is too funny!!!:laugh:

 

[BoilerUP]

Negative. This will not happen because it is suicide. Wanting or believe this is a solution is a false consciousness.

55,000 pilots are but a drop in the national ocean. There are 300 million consumers, plus the international market that want what ALPA wants but they don't want to pay for it.

Pilots are black and white guys. When the put a control column input or flip a switch they expect a direct predictable result.

Politics is the opposite. Grey and uncertain. Democracy is slow and arduous. Unlike 99% flights that are wins in every landing... politics is sometimes a win and sometimes a loss....

One of the major problems with Air Line Pilots is they don't like politics, yet it is everything when it comes to their career.

No one ever said during flight training "I hope I am politically effective in my Air Line Career"

ALPA is supported by the dues paid by its 55,000 members...NOT "300 million consumers plus the international market".

As such, wouldn't it be a worthwhile endeavor to actually represent the desires and will of the membership?

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!
I was ALPA, but was furloughed before IOE, and since then, have not worked at a union carrier (not for lack of trying).

Don't know what the ALPA opinion is, but what I was taught at Trans States is different, for example, than what the YIP FSDO (and I know a bunch of other FSDOs/airlines are teaching).

cliff
NBO

 

[ACL65PILOT]

MPL scares me, but as with Carbon trading, you need to do a few things. One is determine where the winds are blowing. It appears that this is going to pass by a wide margin. What I see ALPA doing is getting far enough in front of an issue so that they can have some say in how it is done. In effect it is the lesser of two evils.
You can either get it done to cause the least amount of issues, make sure the language is such that it develops a productive pilot, or you can fight against it and not be involved in what will eventually pass.

We need to ask ourselves what is better. No input on something that will pass either way, or input to make the changes that will make this a safe program from the foundation up.

I personally wish that the political winds were blowing strong enough to defeat this, but they are not. Our congressmen and women are only concerned and support anything that many appear to lower the cost of a ticket. They do not look at the pitfalls of the ideas and how they could truly effect the traveling public.
Getting in on the ground floor allows us to have some much needed input in to a horrible idea. If we can marginalize some of the risk, and beef this program up, we may be able to use it to our advantage.

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA is supported by the dues paid by its 55,000 members...NOT "300 million consumers plus the international market".

As such, wouldn't it be a worthwhile endeavor to actually represent the desires and will of the membership?

How do you know what the desire and will of the membership is on the MPL issue? I would wager that the loudmouths on flightinfo don't represent the overwhelming majority of the ALPA membership.

MPL scares me, but as with Carbon trading, you need to do a few things. One is determine where the winds are blowing. It appears that this is going to pass by a wide margin. What I see ALPA doing is getting far enough in front of an issue so that they can have some say in how it is done. In effect it is the lesser of two evils.
You can either get it done to cause the least amount of issues, make sure the language is such that it develops a productive pilot, or you can fight against it and not be involved in what will eventually pass.

We need to ask ourselves what is better. No input on something that will pass either way, or input to make the changes that will make this a safe program from the foundation up.

I personally wish that the political winds were blowing strong enough to defeat this, but they are not. Our congressmen and women are only concerned and support anything that many appear to lower the cost of a ticket. They do not look at the pitfalls of the ideas and how they could truly effect the traveling public.
Getting in on the ground floor allows us to have some much needed input in to a horrible idea. If we can marginalize some of the risk, and beef this program up, we may be able to use it to our advantage.

Thank God someone around here gets it!

 

[JohnDoe]

Thank God someone around here gets it!

And there will be plenty of people like pcl 128 who will get it as well and pony up big bucks to pay for their mpl training so they can fly the BIG jets.

Meanwhile, we will be on the street. But the important thing is that alpa GOT IT! And they are TAKIN IT BACK baby!

We are our own worst enemies.

 

[BoilerUP]

How do you know what the desire and will of the membership is on the MPL issue? I would wager that the loudmouths on flightinfo don't represent the overwhelming majority of the ALPA membership.

I don't...but do you? Does ALPA National?

Given that a VAST majority of those "loudmouths on flightinfo" have come out in VERY strong support of a change requiring ATP minimums to act as a 121 crewmember, it doesn't take a Wilson Poll for me to surmise where they would stand on MPL.

Please, if you and/or ALPA National know the will and desire of ALPA membership on MPL, share it with the peanut gallery here.