Why the H is ALPA Advocating MPL Licensing?!

Sedona16

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2001
Posts
564
Total Time
10,400
These guys do one or two things good only to turn around and say something really really stupid. Better hope an pray the 1500 ATP to get hired rule gets passed and is enforced or MPL training will blow another huge hole in bargaining power to get pay rates up.

"Training programs using a competency-based approach coupled with stringent
academic curricula in lieu of the “required hours” approach in traditional training methodologies should be explored as a means to better train and qualify those pilots coming into the airlines with minimal flight time.

The MPL is an alternative to traditional training and licensing methodologies and can train a candidate with no prior flight experience to be a competent flight crewmember. The MPL training program uses a competency-based approach in lieu of the “required-hours” approach found in traditional training methodologies and the FARs/CARs.

The training necessary for a candidate to be issued an MPL or traditional certificates through a similar competency-based process may provide benefits when developed and implemented properly with adequate regulatory oversight. It may be possible to use these concepts and employ other innovative technologies to efficiently train competent flight crewmembers in
commercial air operations through a focused and expedited training program. To ensure that adequate experience is received by the pilot through the MPL process, an airline should be linked with an FTO providing such training to pilots to ensure that their SOPs are taught and equipment trained on during the entire training process."

http://public.alpa.org/portals/alpa/pressroom/inthecockpit/ProducingProfessionalPilot_9-2009.pdf
 
Last edited:

PCL_128

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 21, 2002
Posts
15,296
Total Time
5000+
I think ALPA's white paper does an excellent job of explaining exactly what they support, and the standard MPL program isn't it. They've made much more stringent recommendations regarding what an MPL program should contain.
 

Jar Jar

I spake!
Joined
Aug 14, 2008
Posts
536
Total Time
999999
From the same people touting 'professionalism'??? Hire any clown off the street, pay off the street wages and see what u get. horse********************.
 

Skywest Pylot

Well-known member
Joined
May 18, 2005
Posts
338
Total Time
7000+
Can ALPA stop congress or the DOT/FAA from stopping MPL?
This is disgraceful! I am starting to wonder who is more detrimental to my career the ATA, RAA or ALPA.

BTW ALPA, how does raising the daily flight time limit from 8 to 9 hours make me a safer, less fatigued pilot? That is what this whole thing is about, SAFETY, right?
 

Skywest Pylot

Well-known member
Joined
May 18, 2005
Posts
338
Total Time
7000+
I think ALPA's white paper does an excellent job of explaining exactly what they support, and the standard MPL program isn't it. They've made much more stringent recommendations regarding what an MPL program should contain.
I get the feeling that if ALPA proposed a 50% paycut for all pilots, you would be on here telling us it is in our best interest. This MPL leaves the door wide open for the pilot factories to continue churning out inexperienced, 200 hour wonders who will do ANYTHING to fly a shiny jet. In the meantime the rest of us can't seem to raise the bar high enough to make a decent living. This is bullsh!t!!!!!
 

instructordude

Playing with Fire
Joined
Apr 13, 2006
Posts
975
Total Time
3800
The MPL could be a good program if combined with some sort of mentorship program pairing senior Capts with low time pilots. Kind of a grow your own opportunity where the company saves money on wages, the low time pilot pays to sit in the right seat, but also gets to mentor the individual to the companies own standards. It could be a winner.
 

Jar Jar

I spake!
Joined
Aug 14, 2008
Posts
536
Total Time
999999
you almost had me I-dude. You changed your avatar, tricky bastard.

MPL is CRAP. The single greatest reason we have 2 pilots is so that they can catch each other's mistakes. A brand-new worthless F/O off the street will have ZERO situational awareness, and ZERO ability to handle f'd up situations. My family will not be on an MPL crewed airplane.
 

jumppilot

Something in a box
Joined
Feb 14, 2002
Posts
477
Total Time
6200
The MPL could be a good program if combined with some sort of mentorship program pairing senior Capts with low time pilots. Kind of a grow your own opportunity where the company saves money on wages, the low time pilot pays to sit in the right seat, but also gets to mentor the individual to the companies own standards. It could be a winner.
I don't know who you are but that was the best post I've seen from you yet.

Seriously, your skill at riling up the FI board is the best and I'm sure a lot of people will get heart burn from that.
 

spitfire1500

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 8, 2005
Posts
835
Total Time
Enough
Can ALPA stop congress or the DOT/FAA from stopping MPL?
One of ALPA's own is in charge at the FAA I certainly hope they have some sway in the matter. If ALPA has no lobby power than why am I always asked to donate to ALPA PAC. Last I checked other unions like UAW have a lot of lobby power.....standby now for some open ended question / answer from Rez.
 
Last edited:

spitfire1500

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 8, 2005
Posts
835
Total Time
Enough
I think ALPA's white paper does an excellent job of explaining exactly what they support, and the standard MPL program isn't it. They've made much more stringent recommendations regarding what an MPL program should contain.
All this MPL crap does is bring in lots of legal jargon that allows companies and different FSDO's to interpret wording the way they want to. With these proposed flt time / duty regs the same thing is going to happen I guarantee it. You will have companies that interpret like this.. "well an hour of your flight time is during the day when you can fly the most hours, so we interpret that the less restrictive period is your limit..wait and see. I have worked with two airlines that would come out with different interpretations on the same regs monthly and then after opening up a can of worms involving some other reg because of it would then come up with their own way of interpreting that one...and so on.

What the hell is the problem with requiring an ATPL to fly for a 121 carrier period, end of argument no 10 paragraphs of confusing jargon. When I flew in the CAA world you had regs that were straightforward and didn't have attorneys and feds all reading different things into them. You also didn't have airlines out there using "Shiny Jet Syndrome" to pay pilots sh#t either.

I'll bet you that if a FED or attorney got to the pearly gates and St. Peter said hey wait a minute there bud...you broke the commandment "Thou shall not covet thy neighbors wife" when you poked that lady on an overnight. The response would be hold on there Pete she lived in the next town so she isn't my "neighbor", then ALPA would write a paper on it.
 
Last edited:

smoknjoe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 9, 2005
Posts
52
Total Time
lots
The MPL could be a good program if combined with some sort of mentorship program pairing senior Capts with low time pilots. Kind of a grow your own opportunity where the company saves money on wages, the low time pilot pays to sit in the right seat, but also gets to mentor the individual to the companies own standards. It could be a winner.
So now you want me to give IOE without even getting payd the extra $$. And you must have never flown with a low time F/O straight from training. It can be very laborious, to the point where id rather fly my jet single pilot.
Sorry, but your perspective lacks a foundation in experience.

Take care.
Joe.
 

Dornier 335

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 3, 2005
Posts
1,089
Total Time
10300
MPL is CRAP. The single greatest reason we have 2 pilots is so that they can catch each other's mistakes. A brand-new worthless F/O off the street will have ZERO situational awareness, and ZERO ability to handle f'd up situations. My family will not be on an MPL crewed airplane.
Dead on! I was flying contract for a EU regional company that has MPL. It is an absolute nightmare. I have never seen as much strange decision making as in the few months flying in Euroland. Another attempt by the industry to cut corners and costs. What most freshmen don't realize is that MPL is only valid at this airline on this type. In case your airline goes belly up, guess what? No mo' license.
 

Rez O. Lewshun

Save the Profession
Joined
Jan 19, 2004
Posts
13,422
Total Time
X>X
You guys are strictly speaking from your own perspective... that is fine... but when you bring your arguements to ICAO and CapHill, big business and industry giants really don't care, respectfully......

They care about the market. The problem is, many of us and all of them consumers want cheap airline tickets. MCO and MIA are no longer destination. People want to party in Mexico and Carrib, for the same price

So if you want to know why... the market demands a more streamlined (read cheaper) training program to put pilots into the seats. MPL is not unlike ab initio programs in the rest ofthe world.

Another market demand.... Two pilot jet liners. When Boeing starting making the 737 it lacked an FE. ALPA was opposed to this. Should ALPA have mandated that boeing build the B737 with an FE? What ALPA did do is mandate that airlines crew the B737 with three pilots. Does that sound right? Should all short haul jets have three pilots? Should ERJs and CRJs have three pilots on every flight?

So if ALPA took your hard core NO stance on MPL when they went to ICAO and CapHill, ALPA would be quickly invited to leave. In addition, many ALPA pilots have been slamming Babbitt, so why should he suddenly be nice to us?.......

This is politics. If you don't like politics, fine. But regardless that is the game being played to determine MPL and every single facet of your career.

So we can get good at politics or at least get good at supporting those who are good at it.....

There is plenty of information on MPL out there..... being informed is a good thing.
 

Draginass

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
1,852
Total Time
5000+
Remember ALPA are the same company-owned twerps that have accepted huge paycuts, let their pensions be killed, willing agreed to crappy contracts even when they had management by the gonads, and NOW have proposed killing even more jobs off by wanting a 9 hour flying day AND proposing some kind of management friendly beginners license for airline pilots.

Cowards and loosers is all I can say. Talk about wrecking the profession.
 

Draginass

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
1,852
Total Time
5000+
The MPL could be a good program if combined with some sort of mentorship program pairing senior Capts with low time pilots. Kind of a grow your own opportunity where the company saves money on wages, the low time pilot pays to sit in the right seat, but also gets to mentor the individual to the companies own standards. It could be a winner.
YGBSM. Is this guy for real? Sorry pal. It's not my job to wet nurse you in an airline cockpit. Stick to your C150 and try not to kill yourself. Anyone with your judgment is dangerous.
 

Flopgut

Well-known member
Joined
May 16, 2005
Posts
3,627
Total Time
15k
Another market demand.... Two pilot jet liners. When Boeing starting making the 737 it lacked an FE. ALPA was opposed to this. Should ALPA have mandated that boeing build the B737 with an FE? What ALPA did do is mandate that airlines crew the B737 with three pilots. Does that sound right? Should all short haul jets have three pilots? Should ERJs and CRJs have three pilots on every flight?
Really bad example!! You don't know the history or the big picture.

The 737 and the Super 80 were new in the market place at the same time. The 737 was certified with two pilots, the S80 was certified with three. But, it was Delta that had the S80s, and back in those days the Delta guys were among ALPA's elite. ALPA wasn't going to ask the Delta guys to get their hands dirty so they let them agree with DAL mgt to fly the S80 with two pilots. ALPA forced the other two pilot groups who flew the 737 to carry out the third man in the cockpit fight and it didn't matter that that airplane was certified with two. It was ridiculous; ALPA's hypocracy is what undid the third pilot fight. When the battle over three pilots collapsed ALPA put Frontier's MEC in trusteeship.

If ALPA has learned anything from past mistakes, and in this political climate, with all the buzz around the exact issue, and with the key players in place right now, ALPA should be able to handle this extraordinarily well for the membership. That is to say: Exactly how the membership wants it done!!
 

PCL_128

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 21, 2002
Posts
15,296
Total Time
5000+
BTW ALPA, how does raising the daily flight time limit from 8 to 9 hours make me a safer, less fatigued pilot? That is what this whole thing is about, SAFETY, right?
How? By reducing the max duty day drastically during all hours of the day, and reducing the max block time below 8 hours for most of the day. That anyone could complain about ALPA's proposed flight/duty time limits is just absolutely unbelievable. :rolleyes:

I get the feeling that if ALPA proposed a 50% paycut for all pilots, you would be on here telling us it is in our best interest. This MPL leaves the door wide open for the pilot factories to continue churning out inexperienced, 200 hour wonders who will do ANYTHING to fly a shiny jet. In the meantime the rest of us can't seem to raise the bar high enough to make a decent living. This is bullsh!t!!!!!
Read ALPA's MPL Policy. They don't support anything close to what you're discussing.
 
Top