Why the H is ALPA Advocating MPL Licensing?!

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You guys are strictly speaking from your own perspective... that is fine... but when you bring your arguements to ICAO and CapHill, big business and industry giants really don't care, respectfully......

They care about the market. The problem is, many of us and all of them consumers want cheap airline tickets. MCO and MIA are no longer destination. People want to party in Mexico and Carrib, for the same price

So if you want to know why... the market demands a more streamlined (read cheaper) training program to put pilots into the seats. MPL is not unlike ab initio programs in the rest ofthe world.

Another market demand.... Two pilot jet liners. When Boeing starting making the 737 it lacked an FE. ALPA was opposed to this. Should ALPA have mandated that boeing build the B737 with an FE? What ALPA did do is mandate that airlines crew the B737 with three pilots. Does that sound right? Should all short haul jets have three pilots? Should ERJs and CRJs have three pilots on every flight?

So if ALPA took your hard core NO stance on MPL when they went to ICAO and CapHill, ALPA would be quickly invited to leave. In addition, many ALPA pilots have been slamming Babbitt, so why should he suddenly be nice to us?.......

This is politics. If you don't like politics, fine. But regardless that is the game being played to determine MPL and every single facet of your career.

So we can get good at politics or at least get good at supporting those who are good at it.....

There is plenty of information on MPL out there..... being informed is a good thing.

 

[Draginass]

Remember ALPA are the same company-owned twerps that have accepted huge paycuts, let their pensions be killed, willing agreed to crappy contracts even when they had management by the gonads, and NOW have proposed killing even more jobs off by wanting a 9 hour flying day AND proposing some kind of management friendly beginners license for airline pilots.

Cowards and loosers is all I can say. Talk about wrecking the profession.

 

[Draginass]

The MPL could be a good program if combined with some sort of mentorship program pairing senior Capts with low time pilots. Kind of a grow your own opportunity where the company saves money on wages, the low time pilot pays to sit in the right seat, but also gets to mentor the individual to the companies own standards. It could be a winner.

YGBSM. Is this guy for real? Sorry pal. It's not my job to wet nurse you in an airline cockpit. Stick to your C150 and try not to kill yourself. Anyone with your judgment is dangerous.

 

[Flopgut]

Another market demand.... Two pilot jet liners. When Boeing starting making the 737 it lacked an FE. ALPA was opposed to this. Should ALPA have mandated that boeing build the B737 with an FE? What ALPA did do is mandate that airlines crew the B737 with three pilots. Does that sound right? Should all short haul jets have three pilots? Should ERJs and CRJs have three pilots on every flight?

Really bad example!! You don't know the history or the big picture.

The 737 and the Super 80 were new in the market place at the same time. The 737 was certified with two pilots, the S80 was certified with three. But, it was Delta that had the S80s, and back in those days the Delta guys were among ALPA's elite. ALPA wasn't going to ask the Delta guys to get their hands dirty so they let them agree with DAL mgt to fly the S80 with two pilots. ALPA forced the other two pilot groups who flew the 737 to carry out the third man in the cockpit fight and it didn't matter that that airplane was certified with two. It was ridiculous; ALPA's hypocracy is what undid the third pilot fight. When the battle over three pilots collapsed ALPA put Frontier's MEC in trusteeship.

If ALPA has learned anything from past mistakes, and in this political climate, with all the buzz around the exact issue, and with the key players in place right now, ALPA should be able to handle this extraordinarily well for the membership. That is to say: Exactly how the membership wants it done!!

 

[PCL_128]

BTW ALPA, how does raising the daily flight time limit from 8 to 9 hours make me a safer, less fatigued pilot? That is what this whole thing is about, SAFETY, right?

How? By reducing the max duty day drastically during all hours of the day, and reducing the max block time below 8 hours for most of the day. That anyone could complain about ALPA's proposed flight/duty time limits is just absolutely unbelievable.

I get the feeling that if ALPA proposed a 50% paycut for all pilots, you would be on here telling us it is in our best interest. This MPL leaves the door wide open for the pilot factories to continue churning out inexperienced, 200 hour wonders who will do ANYTHING to fly a shiny jet. In the meantime the rest of us can't seem to raise the bar high enough to make a decent living. This is bullsh!t!!!!!

Read ALPA's MPL Policy. They don't support anything close to what you're discussing.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Really bad example!! You don't know the history or the big picture.

The 737 and the Super 80 were new in the market place at the same time. The 737 was certified with two pilots, the S80 was certified with three. But, it was Delta that had the S80s, and back in those days the Delta guys were among ALPA's elite. ALPA wasn't going to ask the Delta guys to get their hands dirty so they let them agree with DAL mgt to fly the S80 with two pilots. ALPA forced the other two pilot groups who flew the 737 to carry out the third man in the cockpit fight and it didn't matter that that airplane was certified with two. It was ridiculous; ALPA's hypocracy is what undid the third pilot fight. When the battle over three pilots collapsed ALPA put Frontier's MEC in trusteeship.

If ALPA has learned anything from past mistakes, and in this political climate, with all the buzz around the exact issue, and with the key players in place right now, ALPA should be able to handle this extraordinarily well for the membership. That is to say: Exactly how the membership wants it done!!

Flopgut.... I wasn't around back then.... and I read the issue years ago.... I'll revvist it later tonight....

What is your thoughts on the MPL? What kind of leverage does ALPA have in the process?

 

[Flopgut]

Flopgut.... I wasn't around back then.... and I read the issue years ago.... I'll revvist it later tonight....

What is your thoughts on the MPL? What kind of leverage does ALPA have in the process?

We've got a former ALPA member/leader in an incredibly high position. We have John Prater along with him running the union. Both of these guys were helped by ALPA enormously in times of need in their own careers. They owe this profession incredible effort. They have got to do what they are suppose to do. What the membership wants!!

Unfortunately, what seems to be prevailing once again, is ALPA's greed. Greed unique to John and Randy's generation. They are trying to groom this profession for the near term so the best dollars linger a while at the top. They don't care what's left of it in 10 years.

MPL? Cabotage, outsourcing, foriegn contol, code share [Aer lingus type], etc, etc. All of these issues can be handled by pushing for full benefit under the RLA [Railway Labor Act]. Specifically: RRB. All the answers are there. It's close to becoming an ALPA priority. Right now John can't merchandise it for his own greedy needs.

We need to bring to light what the union has done for John and ask him to do the same now for the rest of us.

 

[Jar Jar]

So if you want to know why... the market demands a more streamlined (read cheaper) training program to put pilots into the seats. MPL is not unlike ab initio programs in the rest ofthe world.

The market also demands FREE air travel. In fact i'd be willing to bet that the demand for free air travel FAR exceeds the demand for cheap air travel.

There will ALWAYS be downward price pressure. Thats the nature of capitalism. The reason we have ALPA and yes the FAA (for rules and regs) is to ensure that there is some UPWARD price pressure as well. If ALPA now feels that they are incapable of providing complete resistance to this downward pressure they need to stop charging me 2% and get the feck out.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The market also demands FREE air travel. In fact i'd be willing to bet that the demand for free air travel FAR exceeds the demand for cheap air travel.

There will ALWAYS be downward price pressure. Thats the nature of capitalism. The reason we have ALPA and yes the FAA (for rules and regs) is to ensure that there is some UPWARD price pressure as well. If ALPA now feels that they are incapable of providing complete resistance to this downward pressure they need to stop charging me 2% and get the feck out.

Then what?

 

[Skywest Pylot]

How? By reducing the max duty day drastically during all hours of the day, and reducing the max block time below 8 hours for most of the day. That anyone could complain about ALPA's proposed flight/duty time limits is just absolutely unbelievable.

I remember a time at SkyWest that due to WX and "Legal to start, legal to finnish" I flew 9 hours in a day. It was on 12.5 hours of duty time. I was extremely fatigued.

PCL_128, do you even fly anymore or do you spend all your time working on ALPA stuff?

 

[Skywest Pylot]

You guys are strictly speaking from your own perspective... that is fine... but when you bring your arguements to ICAO and CapHill, big business and industry giants really don't care, respectfully......

They care about the market. The problem is, many of us and all of them consumers want cheap airline tickets. MCO and MIA are no longer destination. People want to party in Mexico and Carrib, for the same price

So if you want to know why... the market demands a more streamlined (read cheaper) training program to put pilots into the seats. MPL is not unlike ab initio programs in the rest ofthe world.

I must be confused, I thought the congressional hearings and FAA mandates were gonna be about SAFETY and pilot pay (or the lack thereof)?

 

[Skywest Pylot]

We've got a former ALPA member/leader in an incredibly high position. We have John Prater along with him running the union. Both of these guys were helped by ALPA enormously in times of need in their own careers. They owe this profession incredible effort. They have got to do what they are suppose to do. What the membership wants!!

Unfortunately, what seems to be prevailing once again, is ALPA's greed. Greed unique to John and Randy's generation. They are trying to groom this profession for the near term so the best dollars linger a while at the top. They don't care what's left of it in 10 years.

MPL? Cabotage, outsourcing, foriegn contol, code share [Aer lingus type], etc, etc. All of these issues can be handled by pushing for full benefit under the RLA [Railway Labor Act]. Specifically: RRB. All the answers are there. It's close to becoming an ALPA priority. Right now John can't merchandise it for his own greedy needs.

We need to bring to light what the union has done for John and ask him to do the same now for the rest of us.

I agree. The ALPA founding fathers are rolling over in their graves right now. This is disgraceful.

 

[Skywest Pylot]

Then what?

Then we pool our money and resources to support an organization that represents us.

 

[Skywest Pylot]

Read ALPA's MPL Policy. They don't support anything close to what you're discussing.

The only thing I support is ATP Mins to fly 121, Period! Members of Congress seem to support this. Why not ALPA or Babbit (former ALPA)?

 

[bluesideup340]

So now you want me to give IOE without even getting payd the extra $$. And you must have never flown with a low time F/O straight from training. It can be very laborious, to the point where id rather fly my jet single pilot.
Sorry, but your perspective lacks a foundation in experience.

Take care.
Joe.

When or how many hours are needed before you consider a F/O no longer low time?
I have flow with newly upgraded CA and new hire FO, and for both the experience was the same. It is called a learning curve.
What is the magic number you are looking for?