Why the H is ALPA Advocating MPL Licensing?!

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Really bad example!! You don't know the history or the big picture.

The 737 and the Super 80 were new in the market place at the same time. The 737 was certified with two pilots, the S80 was certified with three. But, it was Delta that had the S80s, and back in those days the Delta guys were among ALPA's elite. ALPA wasn't going to ask the Delta guys to get their hands dirty so they let them agree with DAL mgt to fly the S80 with two pilots. ALPA forced the other two pilot groups who flew the 737 to carry out the third man in the cockpit fight and it didn't matter that that airplane was certified with two. It was ridiculous; ALPA's hypocracy is what undid the third pilot fight. When the battle over three pilots collapsed ALPA put Frontier's MEC in trusteeship.

If ALPA has learned anything from past mistakes, and in this political climate, with all the buzz around the exact issue, and with the key players in place right now, ALPA should be able to handle this extraordinarily well for the membership. That is to say: Exactly how the membership wants it done!!

Flopgut.... I wasn't around back then.... and I read the issue years ago.... I'll revvist it later tonight....

What is your thoughts on the MPL? What kind of leverage does ALPA have in the process?

 

[Flopgut]

Flopgut.... I wasn't around back then.... and I read the issue years ago.... I'll revvist it later tonight....

What is your thoughts on the MPL? What kind of leverage does ALPA have in the process?

We've got a former ALPA member/leader in an incredibly high position. We have John Prater along with him running the union. Both of these guys were helped by ALPA enormously in times of need in their own careers. They owe this profession incredible effort. They have got to do what they are suppose to do. What the membership wants!!

Unfortunately, what seems to be prevailing once again, is ALPA's greed. Greed unique to John and Randy's generation. They are trying to groom this profession for the near term so the best dollars linger a while at the top. They don't care what's left of it in 10 years.

MPL? Cabotage, outsourcing, foriegn contol, code share [Aer lingus type], etc, etc. All of these issues can be handled by pushing for full benefit under the RLA [Railway Labor Act]. Specifically: RRB. All the answers are there. It's close to becoming an ALPA priority. Right now John can't merchandise it for his own greedy needs.

We need to bring to light what the union has done for John and ask him to do the same now for the rest of us.

 

[Jar Jar]

So if you want to know why... the market demands a more streamlined (read cheaper) training program to put pilots into the seats. MPL is not unlike ab initio programs in the rest ofthe world.

The market also demands FREE air travel. In fact i'd be willing to bet that the demand for free air travel FAR exceeds the demand for cheap air travel.

There will ALWAYS be downward price pressure. Thats the nature of capitalism. The reason we have ALPA and yes the FAA (for rules and regs) is to ensure that there is some UPWARD price pressure as well. If ALPA now feels that they are incapable of providing complete resistance to this downward pressure they need to stop charging me 2% and get the feck out.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The market also demands FREE air travel. In fact i'd be willing to bet that the demand for free air travel FAR exceeds the demand for cheap air travel.

There will ALWAYS be downward price pressure. Thats the nature of capitalism. The reason we have ALPA and yes the FAA (for rules and regs) is to ensure that there is some UPWARD price pressure as well. If ALPA now feels that they are incapable of providing complete resistance to this downward pressure they need to stop charging me 2% and get the feck out.

Then what?

 

[Skywest Pylot]

How? By reducing the max duty day drastically during all hours of the day, and reducing the max block time below 8 hours for most of the day. That anyone could complain about ALPA's proposed flight/duty time limits is just absolutely unbelievable.

I remember a time at SkyWest that due to WX and "Legal to start, legal to finnish" I flew 9 hours in a day. It was on 12.5 hours of duty time. I was extremely fatigued.

PCL_128, do you even fly anymore or do you spend all your time working on ALPA stuff?

 

[Skywest Pylot]

You guys are strictly speaking from your own perspective... that is fine... but when you bring your arguements to ICAO and CapHill, big business and industry giants really don't care, respectfully......

They care about the market. The problem is, many of us and all of them consumers want cheap airline tickets. MCO and MIA are no longer destination. People want to party in Mexico and Carrib, for the same price

So if you want to know why... the market demands a more streamlined (read cheaper) training program to put pilots into the seats. MPL is not unlike ab initio programs in the rest ofthe world.

I must be confused, I thought the congressional hearings and FAA mandates were gonna be about SAFETY and pilot pay (or the lack thereof)?

 

[Skywest Pylot]

We've got a former ALPA member/leader in an incredibly high position. We have John Prater along with him running the union. Both of these guys were helped by ALPA enormously in times of need in their own careers. They owe this profession incredible effort. They have got to do what they are suppose to do. What the membership wants!!

Unfortunately, what seems to be prevailing once again, is ALPA's greed. Greed unique to John and Randy's generation. They are trying to groom this profession for the near term so the best dollars linger a while at the top. They don't care what's left of it in 10 years.

MPL? Cabotage, outsourcing, foriegn contol, code share [Aer lingus type], etc, etc. All of these issues can be handled by pushing for full benefit under the RLA [Railway Labor Act]. Specifically: RRB. All the answers are there. It's close to becoming an ALPA priority. Right now John can't merchandise it for his own greedy needs.

We need to bring to light what the union has done for John and ask him to do the same now for the rest of us.

I agree. The ALPA founding fathers are rolling over in their graves right now. This is disgraceful.

 

[Skywest Pylot]

Then what?

Then we pool our money and resources to support an organization that represents us.

 

[Skywest Pylot]

Read ALPA's MPL Policy. They don't support anything close to what you're discussing.

The only thing I support is ATP Mins to fly 121, Period! Members of Congress seem to support this. Why not ALPA or Babbit (former ALPA)?

 

[bluesideup340]

So now you want me to give IOE without even getting payd the extra $$. And you must have never flown with a low time F/O straight from training. It can be very laborious, to the point where id rather fly my jet single pilot.
Sorry, but your perspective lacks a foundation in experience.

Take care.
Joe.

When or how many hours are needed before you consider a F/O no longer low time?
I have flow with newly upgraded CA and new hire FO, and for both the experience was the same. It is called a learning curve.
What is the magic number you are looking for?

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

skywest pylot:

I remember a time at SkyWest that due to WX and "Legal to start, legal to finnish" I flew 9 hours in a day. It was on 12.5 hours of duty time. I was extremely fatigued.

First, the reason that you flew 9 hours is because the FAA allows their rules to be interpreted differently across the nation, and that has to stop.
At Trans States, your 9 hours of flying would not have been allowed. We were taught that you could not Block Out, or Takeoff, on ANY leg, if you could not complete the leg within your Duty and Flight Time limits. I think your airline, like many others, interprets the reg so that if you are scheduled legally at the beginning of the day, you can fly every leg, even if you know you will be over your flight time limits. That interpretation is wrong, but it doesn't stop many FSDOs/POIs from saying it is OK.

Secondly, with these new rules, I'm 90% sure what you did will NOT be allowed if the ALPA policies are adopted. If you didn't start your trip in the beginning of the day, your schedule would not be allowed. AND, if you flew more than "X" legs, which you probably did, again, your schedule would not be allowed.

cliff
NBO

 

[Skywest Pylot]

Secondly, with these new rules, I'm 90% sure what you did will NOT be allowed if the ALPA policies are adopted.

Uhhh....isn't ALPA proposing raising the max flight hours allowed in a day to 9hrs?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I must be confused, I thought the congressional hearings and FAA mandates were gonna be about SAFETY and pilot pay (or the lack thereof)?

The congressional hearings are for show ponies... so the senators can say they care.....

It is political......

How much political leverage ALPA has is the issue.... and how much ALPA members understand how the politics work..

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Then we pool our money and resources to support an organization that represents us.

Like USAPA?

Look, if you support another organization the same issues will arise. It is human dynamics and nature you are dealing with. Not ALPA per se.

 

[PCL_128]

I agree. The ALPA founding fathers are rolling over in their graves right now. This is disgraceful.

The ALPA founding fathers would be crying from sheer joy that we're finally getting to do what we've wanted to do for so long: implement new flight/duty regulations based on science.

The only thing I support is ATP Mins to fly 121, Period! Members of Congress seem to support this. Why not ALPA or Babbit (former ALPA)?

ALPA does support this. Have you watched the congressional hearings from last week? Captain Prater clearly stated that he supported the House resolution mandating 1500 hours and an ATP for anyone hired to work at a 121 carrier.

I think your airline, like many others, interprets the reg so that if you are scheduled legally at the beginning of the day, you can fly every leg, even if you know you will be over your flight time limits. That interpretation is wrong, but it doesn't stop many FSDOs/POIs from saying it is OK.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that that interpretation is wrong. The FAA Chief Counsel in Washington is the only office allowed to interpret the regulations, and your interpretation is clearly incorrect according to them. I'm not sure if you're an ALPA member, but if you are, log into the ALPA website and go to the Flight Time/Duty Time guide. All of the current regulations are clearly explained, and all of them come from official rulings.

 

[Sedona16]

The sooner ALPA quits operation under the notion such and such is going to happen anyway so we gotta get onboard in some form, the sooner they will shore up the flagging support and credibility from its members. In the end this is the only way the organization will ever be very effective.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The sooner ALPA quits operation under the notion such and such is going to happen anyway so we gotta get onboard in some form, the sooner they will shore up the flagging support and credibility from its members. In the end this is the only way the organization will ever be very effective.

Negative. This will not happen because it is suicide. Wanting or believe this is a solution is a false consciousness.

55,000 pilots are but a drop in the national ocean. There are 300 million consumers, plus the international market that want what ALPA wants but they don't want to pay for it.

Pilots are black and white guys. When the put a control column input or flip a switch they expect a direct predictable result.

Politics is the opposite. Grey and uncertain. Democracy is slow and arduous. Unlike 99% flights that are wins in every landing... politics is sometimes a win and sometimes a loss....

One of the major problems with Air Line Pilots is they don't like politics, yet it is everything when it comes to their career.

No one ever said during flight training "I hope I am politically effective in my Air Line Career"

 

[instructordude]

So now you want me to give IOE without even getting payd the extra $$. And you must have never flown with a low time F/O straight from training. It can be very laborious, to the point where id rather fly my jet single pilot.
Sorry, but your perspective lacks a foundation in experience.

Take care.
Joe.

You may not get paid anything extra but you will help out the company, which will help you out in the long run. Mentoring a young and eager pilot can be rewarding and is pay in itself. Don't sell your self short.

As far as perspective, i have instructed over 500 hrs in airplanes ranging from 152's, 172's all the way up to a 310. Flying is flying so get over the its a jet so it so much harder. Just this bros opinion though.


Take care.
Idude

 

[Scope out RJ's]

You may not get paid anything extra but you will help out the company, which will help you out in the long run. Mentoring a young and eager pilot can be rewarding and is pay in itself. Don't sell your self short.

As far as perspective, i have instructed over 500 hrs in airplanes ranging from 152's, 172's all the way up to a 310. Flying is flying so get over the its a jet so it so much harder. Just this bros opinion though.


Take care.
Idude

This guy is too funny!!!:laugh:

 

[BoilerUP]

Negative. This will not happen because it is suicide. Wanting or believe this is a solution is a false consciousness.

55,000 pilots are but a drop in the national ocean. There are 300 million consumers, plus the international market that want what ALPA wants but they don't want to pay for it.

Pilots are black and white guys. When the put a control column input or flip a switch they expect a direct predictable result.

Politics is the opposite. Grey and uncertain. Democracy is slow and arduous. Unlike 99% flights that are wins in every landing... politics is sometimes a win and sometimes a loss....

One of the major problems with Air Line Pilots is they don't like politics, yet it is everything when it comes to their career.

No one ever said during flight training "I hope I am politically effective in my Air Line Career"

ALPA is supported by the dues paid by its 55,000 members...NOT "300 million consumers plus the international market".

As such, wouldn't it be a worthwhile endeavor to actually represent the desires and will of the membership?