Why no bases at Flex?

[Inigo Montoya]

Dear FLIFO, Earlier this year, we got a pay raise which was cool, but there were no QOL improvements that everybody was asking for. We heard this big speech about how QOL change was going to come, and all these committees they were forming and blah blah blah. Well not a whole hell of a lot has happened. We got a strange end of rest rule, a revamped lunch menu, and new uniforms. Where are the new bases we were told they were evaluating? What the heck is the holdup? Every other frac out there has at least 20 bases, and we have 5. The pilot group has offered lots of suggestions on how to help ease the cost (if there is any) to the company, yet management just says no no no. Not even willing to work out some sort of compromise. And the CAB sounds like they have more or less given up. Compromise....lets come up with something to make it happen. Want me to pay for my hotel in training? fine, done, lets go. If another airport has cheaper airline tickets, why cant I be based there? Whats the problem? If it will save the company money, then why the resistance? Bottom line, we need more bases at Flex. Sincerely, Frustrated at Flex

 

[jonjuan]

"Why no bases at Flex?"

Because you haven't negotiated for them. Sorry to be glib.

 

[DAS at 10/250]

Want me to pay for my hotel in training? fine, done, lets go.

Please don't try to drag the industry down with this. I wish you guys luck but this is a very bad idea.

 

[brokeflyer]

Dear FLIFO, Earlier this year, we got a pay raise which was cool, but there were no QOL improvements that everybody was asking for. We heard this big speech about how QOL change was going to come, and all these committees they were forming and blah blah blah. Well not a whole hell of a lot has happened. We got a strange end of rest rule, a revamped lunch menu, and new uniforms. Where are the new bases we were told they were evaluating? What the heck is the holdup? Every other frac out there has at least 20 bases, and we have 5. The pilot group has offered lots of suggestions on how to help ease the cost (if there is any) to the company, yet management just says no no no. Not even willing to work out some sort of compromise. And the CAB sounds like they have more or less given up. Compromise....lets come up with something to make it happen. Want me to pay for my hotel in training? fine, done, lets go. If another airport has cheaper airline tickets, why cant I be based there? Whats the problem? If it will save the company money, then why the resistance? Bottom line, we need more bases at Flex. Sincerely, Frustrated at Flex

sounds like a job for njasap.....

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Please don't try to drag the industry down with this. I wish you guys luck but this is a very bad idea.

yeah you're right. sorry. just desperate i guess

 

[FastJP4]

Why would they? They have tons of resumes "on file", zero movement in seniority because there is little to no hiring in the industry - and most folks are in the hunkered down mode right now and not going to complain to the company. Couple that with a weak pilot group and voila - 5 bases, realitstically it's actually 4 bases. Nobody new goes to Ontario. I don't think you'll see anything happening in any of those area's. The pay raise brought on silence - yet it's unfortunate that Flex guys have to work 208 days as compared to 184 at NJ & CS in order to have similiar pay. Oh, and please don't ever suggest the pay for your hotel thing during training.

 

[On Your Six]

Maybe Fred GREED will make some changes to domiciles. If he wants to make Flex the "fractional of choice" among pilots, changes will need to be made. You can't tell me opening domiciles in ATL, ORD and LAX (reopening Cali) wouldn't improve scheduling flexibility given that you can get anywhere from those hubs...

Flex has a great fleet (love those CL300s), good pay and an ok schedule - the domicile issue remains. Perhaps Fred is keeping it for the next round of negotiations...

 

[Propilot77]

you all had a chance to fix this with a union but everyone got bought by a $15000 pay raise and crawled back into their hole! Deal with it now because as long as DG is there this will never happen. Also CAB comments like "we don't have a problem filling the 4 bases we have so there will be no more attempt at any more bases." These are the people that are on our CAB who have a different agenda than what's best for our pilot group!

 

[FastJP4]

Just an observation..............with two former 121 guys (FG,DG) running Flex, I seriously doubt pilot QOL is of any concern.

 

[Nolife]

you all had a chance to fix this with a union but everyone got bought by a $15000 pay raise and crawled back into their hole!

Good point. Shoulda kept up with the union drive even after the raise... alas now we must sleep in the feculent bed of bases we accepted.

Other than that I love my job and I'm looking forward to getting a new tie!
:beer:

 

[Club ORD FO]

that we "accepted?" So we should never ask for any changes of any kind since we accepted them by taking the job? Tell that to the guys who cant sell their houses and are stuck commuting, or the guy who's dad died and he wants to move closer to his mom. Or the guy who's wife is a teacher and wants to transfer to another city. Life changes, and so should the bases. In my humble opinion of course.

But anyway, if other airports are cheaper, why not do it? I'm still wondering what the other reasons are.

 

[BAT31]

Sorry guys, but if you have no way to negotiate, then you can not negotiate. Its just a basic fact. The CAB can try, and I think they do their best, but with no leverage, there will be no change. And the pilot group has no leverage.

Now, do you unionize and leverage yourself out of a job? No. That has been disastrous in the past. You have to be realistic and work together. And yes, you all got bought with a pay raise and 0 QOL improvements.

Will things change? Maybe. But when a senior Captain argues that the Lear 85 should be on the same payscale as the smaller Lears "because its a Lear and you young guys need to work your way up just like I did ..." well, you can't argue with that dumb logic. (This is the same guy, by the way, who could not get hired at any major in the last 12 years ......)

Flexjet is a good job that could be a great job with a few QOL improvements. The CP is an outstanding individual but he can't do everything for us. Some we'll have to do for ourselves.

You have to believe in your self worth to make things better. Hope we have good luck.

 

[Propilot77]

I agree with you club ORD however people like DG don't care about those situations! If flexjet management wanted to better our QOL these issues would have been addressed a long time ago! All of our bases are in the top 10 most expensive places to live! I am very much for more bases so that we all can get ahead in life but this won't change.

 

[BAT31]

Now, do you unionize and leverage yourself out of a job? No. That has been disastrous in the past. You have to be realistic and work together. And yes, you all got bought with a pay raise and 0 QOL improvements.




I should have stated that unionizing, of some fashion, is still the answer, just don't negotiate your company away ......

 

[Nolife]

that we "accepted?" So we should never ask for any changes of any kind since we accepted them by taking the job?

Bro... I'm with you on the basing issue. I want to move home. What I meant by "accepted" was we allowed the union drive to die once we got the raise and thereby lost any chance of bargining for more bases.

How long has the basing argument been going on at Flex? Even before DG. I think it will be a looong time before Flex management budges on this one without any pressure.

 

[Club ORD FO]

oh ok gotcha. sorry if i was snippy.

Whoever flies FR next, ask nicely, bribe him with a 20 spot, offer to wash his car and see if that helps.

or maybe say "hey I have an idea that will save us tons of money. Open up some bases with cheaper airline service." seems soooooo simple.

 

[imacdog]

The only thing that will work is forming a union or threatening to form a union. You guys think you got your raises out of the kindness of management's hearts?

 

[Flex-ible]

Voting in a union sure did alot for FLOPS....two years, no contract, crappy morale, shrinking market share, no new planes....oh, and no pay raises.

Are there things I would like to see different at Flex? Sure. Meal choices. Home earlier last day. More credit for seniority in PBS. Give trip info to F/O's at the same time as CA's. Bases for those who want them.

But I am a realist. Right now management of all aviation companies have the option to give their pilots absolutely nothing, because there is no place to go. When the market improves, pilots begin retiring again, airlines add jobs instead of cutting, and we sell more shares - THEN there might be an opportunity to get something from management. Right now I am THRILLED to have one of the best jobs in aviation, warts and all.


My blood pressure "medication":
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]"God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference. "[/FONT]

 

[skyismyoffice]

Voting in a union sure did alot for FLOPS....two years, no contract, crappy morale, shrinking market share, no new planes....oh, and no pay raises.[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif] "[/FONT]

Hold on there...We haven't had to answer our phones until duty on time for about 2.5 years now. We had about 12 domiciles for new hires - now we have 80 or so.

Our shrinking market share and lack of new equipment is due to the moronic CEO we had for almost 3 years. We stuck it out and him and his pet monkey are out the door. Our contract negotiations have progressed SIGNIFICANTLY in the past 2 months and we are on par to have a contract our pilot force can be proud of. I'm not just talking more money but strong Scope language and other things that will keep our jobs safe. As far as the crappy morale - there may be some, but I think most see bright skies ahead.

 

[imacdog]

If you are unwilling to take control of your future then you will have to accept what management gives you. No more bitching please.

 

[FastJP4]

The base thing is pretty silly, that could vastly improve many individuals QOL without costing any money.

I think the saddest part is the Flex pilots having to work 208 days a year to make what the NJ & CS pilots make in 184 days. That puts Flex a distant third in that category - just ahead of FLOPS. If/when FLOPS gets their contract done - Flex will be #4 out of the big 4. "Best in Class"..............................................

 

[fischman]

Voting in a union sure did alot for FLOPS....two years, no contract, crappy morale, shrinking market share, no new planes....oh, and no pay raises.

These things take time.

Patience my young padawan...

 

[Club ORD FO]

But the thing with Bases, is they could SAVE the company money. Right? or am I way off base (pun intended)? It is no secret that orlando is almost always cheaper than MIA or Lauderdale. Same thing with PHX over LA. It is also one of the easiest things to implement. A little bit of research on parking rates and other airports in the area and we're good to go.

I just wish the CAB and the company would discuss it and come up with a solution.

 

[DirtyBeech]

The CAB can't even get their meeting notes out within a month of the meeting. Sorry, not much faith there.

Everything I've heard with research and whatnot says that some new bases would actually save us money. Why we don't do it? Who knows.

Unfortunately, we can't get our group to stick together during the good times so there's not an ice cube's chance in hedoubletoothpicks that we'll take a stand on this one.

 

[Dooker]

But when a senior Captain argues that the Lear 85 should be on the same payscale as the smaller Lears "because its a Lear and you young guys need to work your way up just like I did ..." well, you can't argue with that dumb logic. (This is the same guy, by the way, who could not get hired at any major in the last 12 years ......)

I love it when I hear these 12-plus-year guys kvetch about having to "work your way up." A good number of the ones I've flown with were just pure lucky to get hired on when they did. They flew a token amount of time in a Lear and then--bam!--they upgraded into the CL60 in some insanely short period of time.

Which, I might add, is why I'm opposed to this new "healthy crew meal" initiative. Some of these guys are just a few trans-fats away from slumping over in their seats.

 

[BAT31]

I see two different camps at Flex: The more senior group that mostly came from the charter world. And the other is the recent hires that I think came from regionals and the military and actually chose to come to the fractional world after seeing the majors crumble.

How do these two groups work together .... well not extremely well, but anything can work. We must have a collective voice that works WITH management to achieve our goals. (A collective voice that has some organizational power)

Without that, you will accept whatever is handed your way. I just prefer more say in my future. And like the others have said, if you think, for one minute, we would have gotten a pay raise without the NJ boys working for it, then you are clueless. They worked it, and the market conditions helped their cause, but without their organization, it would not have helped them.

Just give it some thought.

 

[AirChef]

BAT31:

I don't understand what your problem is with the senior pilots at Flexjet. I'm very senior and come from the 121 world, in fact, I used the 121 time to get to Flexjet. What is the difference between I guy who chose to come here twelve years ago as a gamble and a furloughed airline guy today. (Stop with the, "He upgraded in only 5 months." We all know timing is everything in LIFE.)
Do I share your base problem? NO, I live in a beautiful house and have no desire to move. I do support your efforts.
Do I support more money and time off, Yes.
Do I want a union? Not Netjets (we can learn from them and should work closely). I would support our own in-house like SWA.
Take emotion out of your argument and simply state the facts and you will increase your audience.

 

[fischman]

NJASAP has no plans to unionize the entire fractional industry. That is why it is called "NETJETS Association of Shared Aircraft Pilots."

Good luck to all.

 

[Flex-ible]

I love it when I hear these 12-plus-year guys kvetch about having to "work your way up." A good number of the ones I've flown with were just pure lucky to get hired on when they did. They flew a token amount of time in a Lear and then--bam!--they upgraded into the CL60 in some insanely short period of time.

Which, I might add, is why I'm opposed to this new "healthy crew meal" initiative. Some of these guys are just a few trans-fats away from slumping over in their seats.

Sick, really sick. Which is why I laughed out loud....better get to the hotel fitness room so I don't have to order my new uniform pants in a size 50.

 

[JokerFuel]

C'mon guys, it's no secret. We have no leverage here. If we don't form a collective voice in unity we can never shape our destiny at Flex. We had no collective bargaining power when management came out with the pay raise. If we would have held the line and continued with our union endeavour after the pay offer, management would have upped the ante. We have no-one to blame but each other. The question is, "Where do we go from here?". We still have the power to elicit change, the question is, do we have the cohesion to do so. Unfortunately, my observation is that we don't. I want bases, I want real rest rules, I want to have what the other guys have. We are constantly hammered with the "Best in class" BS. If we are that, (IF) then don't we deserve a best in class lifestyle? In every aspect. Together we could do it. I want my company to succeed, but I also want to be a benifactor of that success.