Why Can't Expressjet Reserves Get Consistent Golden Days Off?

[CFI2766]

Chain of command.

How would you have come by this information?

 

[FightingIrish]

How would you have come by this information?

Since you are the person this is in regard to, what say you? Let's hear your side.

 

[FishandFly]

So then, let's get down to the brass tacks, here, so to speak. What in the heck does Retro or a signing bonus have to do with our future prospects ahead? Are we truly digging this deep to oust the MEC/LEC now? I'd say this was a pretty desperate stretch, if so. Especially since they've since been re-elected and we had the opportunity to vote them out since. Truth is this- they got us a deal, and we accepted a deal. The retro issue was quiet for YEARS and now people are unhappy about it?????

And to clarify things- the MEC didn't get a special piece of the pie. They got ratioed out the pay just as everyone else. To accuse otherwise, is either a misunderstanding, or a flat out lie.

Because it speaks to their character and engrained goal of doing the absolute minimum for the junior pilots.

 

[FightingIrish]

Because it speaks to their character and engrained goal of doing the absolute minimum for the junior pilots.

You do realize that there isn't a single person on the current MEC who was a member of the MEC who did the signing bonus, don't you? You do realize that the ring leader of the current recall movement was a member of the MEC who came up with the signing bonus formula, don't you?

 

[777forever]

Because it speaks to their character and engrained goal of doing the absolute minimum for the junior pilots.

Ok thats enough of the not doing enough for the junior pilot whining. Its beyond rediculous. When you have to dig back to 2007 days and make an argument about retro pay that never existed, you're being desperate. PBS by itself was a HUGE win for the junior pilots

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[COOPERVANE]

It's spelled ridiculous.

 

[FishandFly]

You do realize that there isn't a single person on the current MEC who was a member of the MEC who did the signing bonus, don't you? You do realize that the ring leader of the current recall movement was a member of the MEC who came up with the signing bonus formula, don't you?

Real change (not just a couple members) begins with this and I like it. I would like a bottom to top change that results in representation for the junior pilots equal in effect to the representation of the senior pilots. If things like 6 hour min day for the alpa reps, while they tell reserve guys that 4 for 4 and don't call when you're done are are impossible, are killed in the process then great.

If our alpa is willing to change, starting with producing financial documents of our local cash flow then I am willing to compromise.

And to any "hear no evil" guys who just want to ignore the significance of the retro pay debacle, I believe the exact same thing would happen today which is why nothing has changed yet.

 

[www.]

How would you have come by this information?

The info is not specific. People are put on a CNC by the MEC and the CNC members work for the MEC as directed by the MEC. Same at almost all groups.

 

[www.]

You should just stick to one username on FI.

And you should learn to worry about your own house and not someone else's.

 

[777forever]

Real change (not just a couple members) begins with this and I like it. I would like a bottom to top change that results in representation for the junior pilots equal in effect to the representation of the senior pilots. If things like 6 hour min day for the alpa reps, while they tell reserve guys that 4 for 4 and don't call when you're done are are impossible, are killed in the process then great.

If our alpa is willing to change, starting with producing financial documents of our local cash flow then I am willing to compromise.

And to any "hear no evil" guys who just want to ignore the significance of the retro pay debacle, I believe the exact same thing would happen today which is why nothing has changed yet.

Real change? You guys just keep coming up with vague statements. What in the world a new LEC or MEC be able to change that would make things different? Junior this junior that. Just chill out, stop listening to dumb rumors about whats going on in negotiations,let the process work itself out to a TA, then we can all discuss the facts of the TA and whether junior folks were left out(doubtful)

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[SpaceShipEarth]

How about that May 1st is less than a week away and I STILL don't know if I am working or not on that day! Been dealing with this for almost 5 years now! It's crap

 

[Nevets]

The best pay and QOL increase XJT crewmembers can get at this point in the industry is not thru a new contract but through growth. You guys maybe sensing dejuvu here in a few months IF Skywest Inc gets awarded/purchases PNCL's 16 900s. Continuing to be militant and chest thumping may result in a Skywest base reopening in ATL. Those of you whining about reserve rules will still be on reserve for several more years as Skywest upgrades and hires continually. Keep stepping over dollars looking for pennies...

You are selling yourself WAY short if you feel that the best pay and QOL increase XJT crew members can get at this point in the industry is not through a new contract but though growth. That's the same exact bs mainline pilots fell for when giving away scope. I honestly cant believe there are so many people on the CRJ side that have this mentality. Go ahead and sell yourselves out for someone else's loss of 16 900s and the subsequent furlough but I wouldn't feel right unless we can bring those PNCL pilots with the airplanes, with their seniority and pay. But that's just me.

 

[777forever]

You are selling yourself WAY short if you feel that the best pay and QOL increase XJT crew members can get at this point in the industry is not through a new contract but though growth. That's the same exact bs mainline pilots fell for when giving away scope. I honestly cant believe there are so many people on the CRJ side that have this mentality. Go ahead and sell yourselves out for someone else's loss of 16 900s and the subsequent furlough but I wouldn't feel right unless we can bring those PNCL pilots with the airplanes, with their seniority and pay. But that's just me.

You have either little regard for how the regional industry works or are just ignoring reality. First, you cannot compare mainline pilot's situatuon to regionals in the same breath. Second, maybe for senior capts like yourself growth wont do much but for the vast majority of pilots at the combined carrier growth would do way more in terms of QOL & Pay. Sure improvements will come with the contract but reserve is still reserve, working weekends is still working weekends, and being an FO is still being an FO and there is nothing a new contract can do to change that.



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[Nevets]

You have either little regard for how the regional industry works or are just ignoring reality. First, you cannot compare mainline pilot's situatuon to regionals in the same breath. Second, maybe for senior capts like yourself growth wont do much but for the vast majority of pilots at the combined carrier growth would do way more in terms of QOL & Pay. Sure improvements will come with the contract but reserve is still reserve, working weekends is still working weekends, and being an FO is still being an FO and there is nothing a new contract can do to change that.



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I'm not a senior captain but that is beside the point. The point is that your expectations are low in our prospects of increasing our QOL & pay with a new contract. And your justification for agreeing to a new contract that doesn't have increased QOL and pay is PNCL's 16 900s? The simile that I made between mainline pilots and your excuse to settle for a new contract with no increase of QOL is that both groups would give up something now for a possible outcome later that is perceived to be better. Only management wins in that scenario. None of this is to say that growth isn't good for QOL & pay. I just don't feel they are mutually exclusive.

Now you say, "sure improvements will come with the contract but reserve is still reserve..." so I'm glad you've moderated from your position a bit. And I believe that I'm realistic and which is why I hope that if we do get PNCL's 16 900 (because I don't believe they will go to mainline), that 80 captains and 80 FOs come with them and they are integrated with their longevity and seniority. That's a "win" for everyone.

 

[79%N1]

I'm not a senior captain but that is beside the point. The point is that your expectations are low in our prospects of increasing our QOL & pay with a new contract. And your justification for agreeing to a new contract that doesn't have increased QOL and pay is PNCL's 16 900s? The simile that I made between mainline pilots and your excuse to settle for a new contract with no increase of QOL is that both groups would give up something now for a possible outcome later that is perceived to be better. Only management wins in that scenario. None of this is to say that growth isn't good for QOL & pay. I just don't feel they are mutually exclusive.

Now you say, "sure improvements will come with the contract but reserve is still reserve..." so I'm glad you've moderated from your position a bit. And I believe that I'm realistic and which is why I hope that if we do get PNCL's 16 900 (because I don't believe they will go to mainline), that 80 captains and 80 FOs come with them and they are integrated with their longevity and seniority. That's a "win" for everyone.

And you are saying those 80 Captains and FO's would be integrated into our seniority lists how??? Pretty pragmatic of you, but since that is a separate company, I don't see that EVER happening! Heck, Skywest took 700's from ASA and we didn't get to send any pilots - and we were essentially the same company.

 

[777forever]

I'm not a senior captain but that is beside the point. The point is that your expectations are low in our prospects of increasing our QOL & pay with a new contract. And your justification for agreeing to a new contract that doesn't have increased QOL and pay is PNCL's 16 900s? The simile that I made between mainline pilots and your excuse to settle for a new contract with no increase of QOL is that both groups would give up something now for a possible outcome later that is perceived to be better. Only management wins in that scenario. None of this is to say that growth isn't good for QOL & pay. I just don't feel they are mutually exclusive.

Now you say, "sure improvements will come with the contract but reserve is still reserve..." so I'm glad you've moderated from your position a bit. And I believe that I'm realistic and which is why I hope that if we do get PNCL's 16 900 (because I don't believe they will go to mainline), that 80 captains and 80 FOs come with them and they are integrated with their longevity and seniority. That's a "win" for everyone.

Ok before we go over the deep end with this, I know our negotiating is working too hard for us to be on here debating semantics. Bottom line is, Im looking for a contract that not only gives us reasonable pay and QOL increases, but also gives the company the flexibility to grow and obtain a sustainable profit in today's regional environment. A strong healthy company is better for the pilots in the long run. I understand its a fine line being too lax and getting Comaired(E170 Debacle) and being too militant and getting Airtraned(SWA 2nd offer worsened). I trust that both the XJT & ASA NCs have the vision and determination to put aside their differences and work towards the good of all.

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[BOX OFFICE]

Bottom line is, Im looking for a contract that not only gives us reasonable pay and QOL increases, but also gives the company the flexibility to grow and obtain a sustainable profit in today's regional environment.

But that's the problem. The regional model is flawed. They CAN'T make a sustainable profit in this environment, and no pilot contract is going to change that.

 

[777forever]

But that's the problem. The regional model is flawed. They CAN'T make a sustainable profit in this environment, and no pilot contract is going to change that.

The model is not flawed. Too many players is the problem causing airlines to bid for flying below cost to win the business of mainline carriers. Once these underbidding airlines racing to the bottom smack bottom and either go out of business or greatly downsize, the regional industry will stabilize.

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[FishandFly]

The model is not flawed. Too many players is the problem causing airlines to bid for flying below cost to win the business of mainline carriers. Once these underbidding airlines racing to the bottom smack bottom and either go out of business or greatly downsize, the regional industry will stabilize.

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Your response is a good theory, but you are blind to the real problem primarily because you are ignoring "who" defines the rules. Here you go.

[Corrected QUOTE=777forever;2294662]The model is flawed. Mainline carriers want far too many players bidding for flying, hoping that new players bid below cost to win the business of said mainline carriers, even if only for a short term solution. Once these underbidding airlines racing to the bottom smack bottom and either go out of business or greatly downsize, the regional industry will have new underbidding airlines form and attempt get into the game to repeat the cycle due to the demand for their business model gifted by the mainline carriers' business model.

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[BOX OFFICE]

The model is not flawed. Too many players is the problem causing airlines to bid for flying below cost to win the business of mainline carriers. Once these underbidding airlines racing to the bottom smack bottom and either go out of business or greatly downsize, the regional industry will stabilize.

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You're not looking at it from the viewpoint of mainline. Mainline loves the model. It isn't broken for them. They want 10 regional carriers bidding below cost to secure the flying. And as soon as one "smacks the bottom", they'll just create another with no seniority.

The future of the regionals is a return to the 90's "commuter" airline model. Flying their own planes code share for multiple carriers with their own paint jobs. Probably in large turboprops. Just watch. It's the only way to make money now.

 

[JumpersAway]

You're not looking at it from the viewpoint of mainline. Mainline loves the model. It isn't broken for them. They want 10 regional carriers bidding below cost to secure the flying. And as soon as one "smacks the bottom", they'll just create another with no seniority.
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The future of the regionals is a return to the 90's "commuter" airline model. Flying their own planes code share for multiple carriers with their own paint jobs. Probably in large turboprops. Just watch. It's the only way to make money now.

DING!!!!!We have a winner! You are absolutely correct on this matter. This is why it is important to get out, regardless of contract enhancements.

Nevets- pilots following airplanes from regional to regional isn't going to happen. There is no groud work for that, and no effort is currently under way to make this happen. The model is the way it is, and if shuffling airplanes to/from your airline isn't something you can tollerate or stomach, you should be in a different sector of aviation. There is no mainline to regional brand loyalty, what so ever. The continued shuffling of regional flying is as certain as gravity.

 

[enuffalready]

But that's the problem. The regional model is flawed. They CAN'T make a sustainable profit in this environment, and no pilot contract is going to change that.

the airline industry in general is flawed.... if you go back and add up all the revenue ever generated vs the losses suffered, all airlines combined have a net loss.... and yes that equation is with Southwest.... even though they have made money there have been so many others that suffered such tremendous losses the net net was still a negative.... so in general the airlines have never made money over time....mainline and regional

 

[Nevets]

And you are saying those 80 Captains and FO's would be integrated into our seniority lists how??? Pretty pragmatic of you, but since that is a separate company, I don't see that EVER happening! Heck, Skywest took 700's from ASA and we didn't get to send any pilots - and we were essentially the same company.

Just because Skywest took 700s from ASA and didn't get to send pilots doesn't mean it was right or that it should happen again. The way you integrate them is fairly and equitably. Whether that means DOH, ratio, fences, or whatever. We should always strive to do the right thing. At one point in time, XJT and Comair had an agreement in principle that of either company got aircraft operated by the other, pilots would go with the aircraft. When DAL was in the process of getting rid of Freedom, XJT was trying to get some of that flying. The XJT MEC made it clear to management that we were not interested in taking any of their 145s unless pilots came with them with longevity and seniority. Have you ever heard about career progression protection? It's not a new concept within ALPA.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Just because Skywest took 700s from ASA and didn't get to send pilots doesn't mean it was right or that it should happen again. The way you integrate them is fairly and equitably. Whether that means DOH, ratio, fences, or whatever. We should always strive to do the right thing. At one point in time, XJT and Comair had an agreement in principle that of either company got aircraft operated by the other, pilots would go with the aircraft. When DAL was in the process of getting rid of Freedom, XJT was trying to get some of that flying. The XJT MEC made it clear to management that we were not interested in taking any of their 145s unless pilots came with them with longevity and seniority. Have you ever heard about career progression protection? It's not a new concept within ALPA.

Nev,
You have worked for the SKYW umbrella for awhile. In all that time what indication have you received that would indicate SKYW, the corporation like seniority? Jerry's Kids, Brad included want every pilot to be on 1st year pay, CAs included. Churning seniority is the regional game plan, today it is PNCL, tomorrow it will be ASA, then SKYW, then Gheyjhets, then some other random carrier to be yet named. Each time they will offer "Preferential" interviews, to the poor unemployed pilots. This game has been played since deregulation, and the pilot work force in general has tolerated it. The solution is a national seniority list for pay rates, upgrade and vacation would be company based on seniority, but base pay would be from the national list. This simple solution would negate the churning of companies and force the bean counters to actually improve efficiency through actual improvements in the operation vs hiring and firing pilots to reduce their longevity.

 

[Nevets]

Nev,
You have worked for the SKYW umbrella for awhile. In all that time what indication have you received that would indicate SKYW, the corporation like seniority? Jerry's Kids, Brad included want every pilot to be on 1st year pay, CAs included. Churning seniority is the regional game plan, today it is PNCL, tomorrow it will be ASA, then SKYW, then Gheyjhets, then some other random carrier to be yet named. Each time they will offer "Preferential" interviews, to the poor unemployed pilots. This game has been played since deregulation, and the pilot work force in general has tolerated it. The solution is a national seniority list for pay rates, upgrade and vacation would be company based on seniority, but base pay would be from the national list. This simple solution would negate the churning of companies and force the bean counters to actually improve efficiency through actual improvements in the operation vs hiring and firing pilots to reduce their longevity.

Skywest, the corporation, has already agreed to exactly what I'm talking about. This is actually something that can also help the company. Just pretend if SKW wanted to buy the Colgan Qs. If they take pilots that are currently qualified on them, they cut the expense I having to train new pilots. This is precisely why XJT/Comair where open to this.

I don't disagree with a single seniority list. This interest solution would benefit the regional pilots right now though.

 

[SpaceShipEarth]

Nev,
You have worked for the SKYW umbrella for awhile. In all that time what indication have you received that would indicate SKYW, the corporation like seniority? Jerry's Kids, Brad included want every pilot to be on 1st year pay, CAs included. Churning seniority is the regional game plan, today it is PNCL, tomorrow it will be ASA, then SKYW, then Gheyjhets, then some other random carrier to be yet named. Each time they will offer "Preferential" interviews, to the poor unemployed pilots. This game has been played since deregulation, and the pilot work force in general has tolerated it. The solution is a national seniority list for pay rates, upgrade and vacation would be company based on seniority, but base pay would be from the national list. This simple solution would negate the churning of companies and force the bean counters to actually improve efficiency through actual improvements in the operation vs hiring and firing pilots to reduce their longevity.

Law of un-intended consequences would kick in here: airline would stop hiring guys who were senior on that list