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Why be so quick to report "traffic in sight" ?

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Bernoulli said:
My understanding of a visual approach is that ATC may issue you a visual approach clearance but you do not have to accept it... can't you simply say yeah we have the guy in sight but negative for the visual... request the ILS.
Not if you don't want to get jerked out of line. They're setting YOU up for a visual approach because they know which guys can and will handle it and which ones can't. They're counting on you to play along with them - it's how they get it all done in time for a coffee break.

They can't clear you for an ILS on the spot because they either don't have the lateral or the in-trail separation.

No, the parade into LAX must keep moving. You can't imagine what a stir even a single go-around causes. The easiest thing to do is NOT report the big guy in sight. that way they have nothing to base the visual approach clearance on.

Bernoulli said:
Also... On initial contact with approach can you not let them know you are negative for a visual approach when you suspect that they will do what you just described?
Again, not if you want to be well liked at LAX. Play their game or else.

I just find it interesting that when we, as pilots, start stretching our operating practices to their limits it's interpreted as "Careless or Reckless operation" but when the FAA does it it's called "enhancing the flow of traffic."

TIS
 
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EagleRJ said:
The next time they try to do that, I'll just hold the heavy at 5NM on the TCAS, and if ATC wants me to speed up, I'll accept either a sidestep or a missed. I'll do everything I can to help move things along, but not at the cost of safety!

That's exactly how I do it. I'll keep my speed up for as long as I can, then slow her up a necessary to keep my distance. ATC is usaully pretty good a keeping the seperation, but sometimes they drop the ball. We're all professionals and should know how to cope with these situations when they arise. I get sick of hearing pilots b!tch and moan (while flying) :eek: about the sh!tty vectors, not enough sep. etc. Deal with it because things certainly aren't going to change. If you do not like it, go-around and come back. There's no use in complaining and forcing something that may turn dangerous.
 
TIS,


Sorry for the delay in responding, I've been at work.

I can't speak to specifics at SoCal, I don't work there. Having said that, I know from having worked similar situations many times that there may be several mis-conceptions at work here. I won't get into all the details here, but suffice to say there are rules and procedures for parallel visual approaches, rules and procedures for parallel ILS approaches, and rules and facility SOP for ILS turn-ons. The rules don't change from day to day, but they do depend on the facility configuration and equipment in use at the time. In other words, a facility may not be set up at the moment for reduced separation ILS approaches. Requires extra controllers and scopes up and running. If visuals have been "working" for the most part, the facility may not have those sectors open at the moment. (If the WX is VFR, those controllers are probably at a satellite position, or somewhere else besides the breakroom...)


When the controllers are anticipating using visual approaches, they may not be feeding the finals in the same way they would for ILSs. So you get turned on a "base" and the controller points out a heavy on the parallel final and asks "can you see him?". You say "sure" everything works as planned. (and, as a side-note, from a controller's perspective, what could be easier to see than a B747???) If you don't see him, there may not be spacing or adequate vertical separation for a legal ILS turn-on for you.

At my facility, I can legally vector you toward the parallel final side by side with the heavy doing an ILS so long as you have visual with the heavy or your runway in sight for a visual. If you don't see the runway or the heavy, I now have to turn you on final 3-5 miles and/or 1000' from the heavy, and after you've gotten reasonably established, I can then reduce that separation to a lower value, again depending on equipment and tracon set-up at the time. But what if I've already got two or three more on the straight-in set up to follow you? I can't widen your base to maintain legal separation with the heavy without causing a conflict with the folks following you. Had I been planning an ILS turn on to begin with, I either wouldn't have tried to squeeze you into that hole, or I'd have built in more separation to begin with.

So, what I'm saying is that I've seen a situation very similar to what you've described many times, and if you don't report the heavy in sight, I will break you out from the base and re-sequence you for the ILS. It won't be "punishment" for not "playing ball". It will because there is no other legal option available. And I might even sound a bit testy at having my original sequence go to crap. If so, I apologize.

Having said all that, I have absolutely no problem with a crew that straight up asks for the ILS 30 miles out. I'll plan my sequence and spacing accordingly. Therefore I'm suggesting that if LAX is advertising visuals, and you don't ask for an ILS early, you *might* be contributing to the problem. It happens as I just described at lots of places. Nobody is "punishing" a crew that wants an ILS, but it requires more separation for the turn-on in many cases, and you might have to go three or more slots further back in the sequence to get that separation.

And, by the way TIS, I'll get my coffee break when it's my turn, whether you're short final or still on downwind 30 east....
 
We've reached the point of know return. I understand what you're saying. At LAX it's a local culture thing. Those who play there all the time know what I'm talking about. It's simply not as cut and dried as the 7110.65 says it should be, though I'm sure everything's legal 99.9% of the time. I just don't like the construct - but I guess it hasn't caused an accident yet. I know for a fact that ASRS used to do alert bulletins with the FAA nearly EVERY week on it though and anything that causes that kind of notice isn't working quite right.

Anyhow, can I change the subject? What control panel are you using at the moment? Are you still on ASR9 or do you have a newer one? I'd like to learn the weather depiction capabilities of the latest generation of ATC set and I basically need a handbook. Can you shed any light?

TIS
 

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