Who are the better pilots?

[SIG600]

Sig if you were smart enough to fly the shuttle you sure as hell wouldn't be posting on flight info. And some of those 300 hour wonder CFI's are working for almost nothing to get into this buisness and be where alot of us are now. Think being a civillian pilot, especially in the beginning, is an easy job? Go to the NTSB website and take a look at all the freighters, GA aircraft, etc that met an untimely end. So no, I will not call anyone crap, civillian or military. Being a military pilot is no doubt a demanding job. But come on man, good pilot's come from both sides of the fence. I have flown with good and bad pilots from all backgrounds, and am proud to call myself friends with both.

Thanks, but I quit commercial aviation to get into the military. I flight instructed for 3-4 years, and oh yeah flew part 91 and 135 charter. I know exactly what a 300 hour wonder CFI knows, and how much they make. I was one of them... and the knowledge base AND pay are commensurate. And I still keep my GA roots watered flying RV's (mainly RV-7).

I'm young and prone to bouts of controlled audacity...the very definition of a lieutenant. Deal with it.

that should be a bumper sticker.. or at least a patch! And whats with the "FAIP Mafia?" I saw a bunch of those patches at tailhook.

 

[Fury220]

Thanks, but I quit commercial aviation to get into the military. I flight instructed for 3-4 years, and oh yeah flew part 91 and 135 charter. I know exactly what a 300 hour wonder CFI knows, and how much they make. I was one of them... and the knowledge base AND pay are commensurate. And I still keep my GA roots watered flying RV's (mainly RV-7).



that should be a bumper sticker.. or at least a patch!

So...T-38 FAIP = 300 hour CFI?

 

[SIG600]

So...T-38 FAIP = 300 hour CFI?

Eh I'd say T-38 FAIP = 600-800 hour CFI, but with a much broader spectrum of aviation exposure. Not to many guys have ever seen over 250 knots below 10K, or even been into the flight levels yet (I hadn't).

 

[Fury220]

And whats with the "FAIP Mafia?" I saw a bunch of those patches at tailhook.

We gotta stick up for each other...'cause no one else does.



They say FAIPs are hand-picked...like a booger.

 

[Mud Eagle]

Mine was an ex-USAF L-17B...my dad was the first civilian owner, buying it back in the 60s from the CAP. By the time I started flying it, it had the 225 engine, the big window conversion, the Palo Alto tail, and all that. It was IFR but, at the time, I wasn't.

After UPT I went back and flew it again and realized that it handles like a dump truck, although very stable and extremely easy to fly. The short/rough field characteristics are pretty cool, too. My dad calls it 'the only single-engine DC-6' he's ever flown.

If I weren't trying to build tail-dragger time I'd definitely consider buying one...a great airplane with lots of utility and pretty sexy looking, too.

 

[Fury220]

Eh I'd say T-38 FAIP = 600-800 hour CFI, but with a much broader spectrum of aviation exposure. Not to many guys have ever seen over 250 knots below 10K, or even been into the flight levels yet (I hadn't).

Maybe CFII/MEI. I could buy that.

 

[SIG600]

Ya... implied... by CFI I just meant "instructor" in the generic sense of the word.

 

[Fury220]

Ya... implied... by CFI I just meant "instructor" in the generic sense of the word.

Gotcha.


How freaking ironic is it that we're in the "Best Pilots" thread, yet we're talking about FAIPs and 300-hour-wonder CFIs? I mean...c'mon.


FAIPs != the greatest pilots in the world.


(and before you freak out, the expression "!=" means "does not equal")

 

[SeaSpray]

GV.....

I hope this doesn't sound too defensive...but most of us don't elect to take a training assignment. Our IPs made the decision for us. If you get FAIPed out of '38s you are qualified for either a fighter or bomber follow-on (needs of the Air Force and all). Not quite like hoping for a second shot at a fighter, more like a short delay. When I graduated (2000) the FAIP assignment had a guaranteed follow-on (ex: T-37 w/ fighter for me). Just FYI. Have a nice day....

TUMBLEWEED

Sounds like the boys and girls who were FAR'd, but didn't get a fighter seat out of UPT are a little sensitive. Truth is FAIPs are already well behind their contemporaries by the time thy get to their fighter unit.

 

[AIR2MUD]

Your buddies at Graduation. "Oh SNAP....You got a T-38 instead of a real fighter!"

Typical SNAP reaction.

 

[SUNDOWN]

Deleted in hopes this thread will die

SnapDown

 

[Fury220]

Truth is FAIPs are already well behind their contemporaries by the time thy get to their fighter unit.

Don't remind me. All my pilot training bros are on their way to the CAF to go do the mission, and I'm stuck in AETC. It's enough to drive a man to drink.

 

[pilotyip]

Fury 220 at least you are in a place you can go have that drink

 

[Fury220]

Fury 220 at least you are in a place you can go have that drink

Truth.

 

[talondriver]

Fury 220 at least you are in a place you can go have that drink

The Ops Town bar at Al Udeid served a variety of "drinks". Yeah, you're limited to three but who's counting :beer: .

 

[FastCargo]

Don't remind me. All my pilot training bros are on their way to the CAF to go do the mission, and I'm stuck in AETC. It's enough to drive a man to drink.

Fury,

Yea, but your buddies are now targeted for an Alpha tour somewhere later on...you know, going back to AETC, or ALO, or even UAVs. You won't have that problem because you'll have filled that square.

FastCargo

 

[stonewall]

Fury,

Yea, but your buddies are now targeted for an Alpha tour somewhere later on...you know, going back to AETC, or ALO, or even UAVs. You won't have that problem because you'll have filled that square.

FastCargo

Or you could do three ops tours and go the Guard when they try to stick you with an ALFA like I did last year. I quit to join the Guard...and now my Guard unit is transitioning to F/A-22s.

I know...there is no justice.

But seriously, I know it wasn't a choice to be FAIP'ed (not usually), but there are a multitude of ways to dodge the ALFA tour down the road. The bros that come late to fighters are waaaay behind the Lt's that went right in, and it's rare that it actually evens out in the end. It sucks, but that's the way the system is set up right now.

 

[Huggyu2]

the T-38 is still a tactical aircraft, and based on the F-5.

Correction: the F-5 is based on the T-38. The Talon came first.

 

[Fury220]

The bros that come late to fighters are waaaay behind the Lt's that went right in, and it's rare that it actually evens out in the end. It sucks, but that's the way the system is set up right now.

Dam

 

[stonewall]

Sorry, brother.

 

[tumbleweed]

The bros that come late to fighters are waaaay behind the Lt's that went right in, and it's rare that it actually evens out in the end. It sucks, but that's the way the system is set up right now.

Hell....I stopped caring about career progression the moment I started chugging the $3 bottle of Brut they gave all us lucky winners at assignment night! It is just nice to be off the bench and in the game, even if it is considered second string by the system.

TUMBLEWEED

 

[FastCargo]

It depends....

Hell....I stopped caring about career progression the moment I started chugging the $3 bottle of Brut they gave all us lucky winners at assignment night! It is just nice to be off the bench and in the game, even if it is considered second string by the system.

TUMBLEWEED

Depends what you mean by career progression. Do you want to fly? Or do you want to make Lt Col / SQ/CC? A lot of times the 2 questions are mutually exclusive.

FastCargo

 

[Mud Eagle]

The bros that come late to fighters are waaaay behind the Lt's that went right in, and it's rare that it actually evens out in the end.

Depends on what you mean by 'the end'. After flying tour #2 the playing field is essentially even for everyone, since this is when all the WIC/ALFA/IDE/staff games are going to start.I know more than a couple current fighter CCs who were FAIPs. Overall career progression is not an issue for a FAIP...it is only 1st ops assignment progression and (perhaps) WIC selection which suffers for FAIPs. Everything else is chicken/beef, same-same.

 

[AlbieF15]

...but WIC is a big deal. There are plenty of non-patch wearing types who've been successful, but a LOT of Sqdn CCs and certainly OGs are patch wearers. Again--always exceptions to the rule--but going to Wpns School is a good move for the guy who wants to be a tactical god, but also for the guy who wants to lead a fighter squadron/OG/wing one day.

I worked for a former OV-10 who made it to F-15 WIC, and a former VPS commander was a FAIP and a WIC grad. However...getting to Nellis when you start your fighter career as a captain is tougher. Not impossible, but tougher...

 

[stonewall]

...but WIC is a big deal. There are plenty of non-patch wearing types who've been successful, but a LOT of Sqdn CCs and certainly OGs are patch wearers. Again--always exceptions to the rule--but going to Wpns School is a good move for the guy who wants to be a tactical god, but also for the guy who wants to lead a fighter squadron/OG/wing one day.

I worked for a former OV-10 who made it to F-15 WIC, and a former VPS commander was a FAIP and a WIC grad. However...getting to Nellis when you start your fighter career as a captain is tougher. Not impossible, but tougher...

True. I didn't say it wasn't possible, only that it rarely evens out. And I guess it's all in the eye of he beholder and what you call "even." It all depends on what you want out of the AF.

 

[Swede]

Not a FAIP, but 800 hours in the SMURF jet (The blue AT-38B from HMN) gives me a tiny bit of perspective.

"Easy to fly, hard to employ" pretty much sums up tactical and fighter aircraft, and that includes the T-38. Any decent pilot can tool around in an F-16, but to put it to use to kill people and blow stuff up as a mission commander in a complex, fluid environment separates the men from the wannabees. That is what many civilians don't comprehend well. Just as I did not comprehend how a well-flown transport pilot manages energy properly to produce efficient and smooth letdowns and nice touchdowns.

In a T38, if you need to bleed some energy because you misjudged, just slap some G onto the jet. Not an option in a transport, hence energy management for the descent is more challenging in a 737, as is the actual touchdown.

There are misconceptions from both sides of the fence. I will say this, and will be flamed for it, but the worst of the autocratic, Himmler-like cockpits, with dissent crushed mercilessly, are almost always pure civilian-background Captains. And these are rare, but still more common than ex-mil. Most of these, both AF and Navy, are essentially "No violations, let's have fun, I'll buy the beer!" types.

 

[AD SUPT Hopeful]

Does anyone know about AFSOC guys (specifically AC-130s) going to weapons school?

 

[stonewall]

Does anyone know about AFSOC guys (specifically AC-130s) going to weapons school?

Yes, they are. In fact, all the MC-130s have guys attending WIC, from the 130Ps to the Talons to the Spectres. The school is very new compared to the other divisions, but they've done a great job getting it spun up and learned fast.

 

[screwed_again]

Civilian pilots are the best...

 

[stonewall]

...at bitching about how they coulda flown military, but had a better offer.