White House & Capitol Evacuated

[PeteCO]

I'd like to put my 2 cents in, if I may....


I've been reading the posts in this thread, and the discussion regarding the damage potential of a "small aircraft" is interesting. I was talking with my father one day a year or so ago, and he asked me what I thought about small, GA aircraft and the potential threat they posed. Naturally, I pointed to the FL incident in which the kid crashed into the building. "See? Little to no damage."

He pointed something fairly interesting out to me, though. It could (stress the word COULD) be possible to load a small (say 150 or 172) with explosives and cause quite a bit of damage and loss of life. My dad theorized that, if a pilot took off at a major airport, flying a C150 with max payload of C4 and crashed it into fully-fueled airliners parked at the ramp, the results might be surprising.

At first, I dismissed this theory as somewhat impossible. After all, how long would it take a GA aircraft to take off, circle around, and find a nice, neat row of commercial aircraft to plow right into? However, like another poster said, airplanes taking out skyscrapers was somewhat far-fetched at one time....

I wonder--is the reaction downtown overdone? (I work directly across the street from the Pentagon--can see it from my window as I type this.) I grant you, a C150 wouldn't do much structural damage to a building or bridge, but a little WMD in the mix would paint a very different scenario.

What do y'all think? Am I suffering from paranoia due to living in the DC Metro for too long (was here for 9/11)?

--Don

No, but I do think you need to remember that the threat is relative - a truck bomb is much more deadly and accurate, and easier to pull off. A tango could shoot up a mall, strap dynamite to himself, and introduce biological and chemical weapons in other ways - it would be to their advantage to have the dispersal undetected if possible.

The reaction of banning small planes due to the failure of the airport security simulation is like banning trucks rather than tightening our border security - it's a red herring and doesn't work to reduce the threat.

As far as this ADIZ crap, the feds have already shown that they won't shoot a plane down, which only increases the miniscule threat level. Since any terrorist bombing anything via a small plane is already breaking about 100 laws, why should it bother them to blast into the ADIZ and hit a target? There don't seem to be any consequences for doing so. The government whining is valid from one aspect - it forces them to show their hand to the tangos.

 

[TDTURBO]

Not so fast, oh ye of hasty judgment.


Besides the two things you might conclude, there is at least one other. A private pilot is allowed to carry a passenger, even if the passenger happens to be a student pilot.




.

This is a joke right?

Are you telling me that a student pilot can take another student pilot up for joy rides?

That's like the blind leading the blind but it wouldn't surprise me coming from the incompetent FAA. I do realize that the student pilot can take up a licensed pilot as long as he has a current medical but the reports from every news source stated said it was a CFI. (Not that the media ever got anything right either).

It doesn't change my opinion, they should have blown him out of the sky so that the biggest piece hitting the ground was the size of Michael Jacksons tool of molestation.

 

[TDTURBO]

Not so fast, oh ye of hasty judgment.


Besides the two things you might conclude, there is at least one other. A private pilot is allowed to carry a passenger, even if the passenger happens to be a student pilot.




.

I admit my English isn't always perfect but the way I read it, he states a student pilot can take another student pilot up for a ride.

I think you better read it again.


This can be taken both ways, depending who English is referring to as "passenger". If the "passenger is PF, than he is correct, if otherwise, well, you get the drift.



This is all academic, the SP was with a CFI and got lost, people wonder why I am so critical of 250 hr wonders teaching, I think this instance as well as hundreds of others ought to put that argument to rest unless you're a CFI, LMAO!

 

[lowlycfi]

This is all academic, the SP was with a CFI and got lost, people wonder why I am so critical of 250 hr wonders teaching, I think this instance as well as hundreds of others ought to put that argument to rest unless you're a CFI, LMAO!

Guy wasn't a CFI. Looked up Jim Sheaffer on the FAA Registry and he holds a private pilot ASEL certificate. The other guy in the airplane was Troy Martin who holds NO certificates, not even a student pilot certificate. The "facts" in this thread have risen to about the same level as the mainstream media.

 

[JonJohn82]

Seems like the whole incident was a good way for the security procedures for an actual attack to be practiced. Drill drill drill....

 

[the_dimwit]

No, but I do think you need to remember that the threat is relative - a truck bomb is much more deadly and accurate, and easier to pull off. A tango could shoot up a mall, strap dynamite to himself, and introduce biological and chemical weapons in other ways - it would be to their advantage to have the dispersal undetected if possible.

The reaction of banning small planes due to the failure of the airport security simulation is like banning trucks rather than tightening our border security - it's a red herring and doesn't work to reduce the threat.

As far as this ADIZ crap, the feds have already shown that they won't shoot a plane down, which only increases the miniscule threat level. Since any terrorist bombing anything via a small plane is already breaking about 100 laws, why should it bother them to blast into the ADIZ and hit a target? There don't seem to be any consequences for doing so. The government whining is valid from one aspect - it forces them to show their hand to the tangos.

I agree completely--simply banning GA will is not the answer here. However, the easiest way out is often chosen in matters such as this. GA pilots may disagree with me on this, but I believe one way to lock down airport security is by requiring GA pilots (including student pilots) to undergo the same background/security checks that commercial pilots endure. An identification card should be worn, displaying the name, rating, and a picture.

That, of course, won't solve the problem. I submit that the only way to truly make our skies secure is to ban all aviation. Since that is obviously a ludicrous idea, we have to look at other ways to at least improve the security. I deal with information security all day long and, from a systems perspective, if one part of the system is open to security vulnerabilities, then the whole system has been compromised. Aviation is no different. Parts of the system are being monitored, while other parts go virtually unchecked.

We can't hide from terrorism. It is the bully on the playground that must be reckoned with. Whether the attack is by airplane, truck, or bombs strapped to a suicide bomber, the effects are the same. The differences are in how it is prevented.

--Don

 

[Whirlwind]

What a bunch of idiot Chicken Littles in Washington D.C. Our Fearless Leaders!

It's a freaking Cessna 150. You can put a bigger weapon load in a Honda Civic. And there's not one journalist with brains enuf to figure it out either. These are the people who manage our nation folks. The ignorance is just breathtaking...

Couldn't have said it better...

 

[ManofAction]

New FAR

I see the need for a new FAR: FAR 91.999 All persons designated as a retard by the Administrator shall remain within a 1 nm radius of their home airport (.5 nm if said airport is located in Pennsyltucky).

 

[A1FlyBoy]

Light up the Cessna....

Officials Weighed Shooting at Errant Plane

By LESLIE MILLER
SUITLAND, Md. (AP) - When the klaxon sounded at Andrews Air Force Base, Lt. Col. Tim Lehmann abandoned his lunch, sprinted toward the runway and jumped into one of the two waiting F-16 fighter jets. He had no idea how close he'd come to shooting down a small plane headed straight for the White House.

He didn't have details about the plane - the ``target of interest'' in fighter pilot lingo. But he'd practiced the scramble some 25-30 times and he'd intercepted about a dozen aircraft that strayed into restricted airspace since the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks.

He didn't know thousands of people were running frantically from buildings in the heart of Washington, D.C., that Wednesday, or that the vice president and first lady were rushed from the White House. Like most fighter pilots, he was happy to be in the air.

At 11:57 a.m., the F-16s were airborne. His cockpit radar told Lehmann where the target was. He got a vector directly where he needed to go and raced toward it.

It was when he saw the plane and the Washington Monument behind it that he realized how serious the situation was. The plane was headed straight toward the White House.

``There's a little bit of adrenaline going,'' he recalled Thursday. ``But then our training takes over.''

He figured the plane, a single-engine Cessna 150, was probably not much of a threat. It was a small two-seater and couldn't carry a big bomb; it was moving slowly and it was maintaining its altitude.

Still, he said, you can never be certain. His job was to look for the threat and to be in position to fire a missile should he receive the order to shoot.

Customs officials had also scrambled a Black Hawk helicopter and a Cessna Citation jet at 11:47 a.m. to intercept the plane. The Customs aircraft pulled away when the fighter jets arrived and tried to park at each wing of the little plane. They dipped their wings - a pilot's signal to ``follow me'' - and tried to raise the pilot on the radio.

But the Cessna didn't change course, and it was flying too slow for the F-16s. The frustrated pilots had to take turns dropping flares, breaking away and returning to drop more flares.

Meanwhile, national security officials were on the phone discussing whether to give the shootdown order.

It was ``a real finger-biting period because they came very close to ordering a shot against a general (aviation) aircraft,'' one senior Bush administration counterterrorism official said.

``How many more seconds away or minutes - it was within a very small window where there would have been the decision,'' said the official, who spoke only on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter.

Finally, when the Cessna came within three miles of the White House - just a few minutes flying time - it altered course.

``Perhaps it dawned on them finally, this is no good, I've got to change something,'' Lehmann told reporters at Andrews, located just outside Washington. ``When that happened and the aircraft turned west, we all breathed a sigh of relief.''

The plane landed safely at an airport in Frederick, Md. The pilot and his student were handcuffed and questioned before being released. Authorities said the two pilots had become lost en route to North Carolina from Pennsylvania.

Hundreds of planes have encroached on the airspace since the Sept. 11 attacks, but none is believed to have gotten so close to the White House. Administration officials spent Thursday reviewing the events.

Lehmann said the system to defend the nation's capital worked flawlessly. Immediately after the Cessna entered the restricted 30-mile radius Air Defense Identification Zone at 11:28 a.m. EDT, authorities activated the Domestic Events Network to share information as they tracked the plane.

The network, a conference call of officials from the Homeland Security Department, Customs and Border Protection, the Pentagon, the Federal Aviation Administration and a handful of other agencies, lasted until the Cessna landed just over an hour later.

Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld was apprised of the situation as it unfolded. He is among a small handful of top Pentagon officials who can order a shootdown. The president also may give such an order.

President Bush was riding his bike at the time and was not told about the suspected threat until later.

Lehmann, 43, is a veteran Air Force pilot who returned to active duty in the Air National Guard after he was furloughed by United Airlines four years ago. He has 4,150 hours flying fighter-type jets.

He was at Andrews Air Force Base playing backgammon when his father called to tell him that terrorists had flown into the World Trade Center.

Ever since then, his squad has been practicing how to prevent another such attack.

``Our squad's been training for this very event since 9/11,'' he said of Wednesday's incursion.

 

[Whirlwind]

Ok..I don't like 100 miles. I couldn't even fly to Atlantic City or Cape May.

How about just a total ban on non airline traffic in the current ADIZ? Maybe expand it to 40 or 50 miles?

A total ban only helps if you're really prepared to shoot down a 150. Otherwise it accomplishes nothing other than to suspend the tickets of those pilots stupid enough to fly through it.

 

[gfvalvo]

Ok..I don't like 100 miles. I couldn't even fly to Atlantic City or Cape May.

How about just a total ban on non airline traffic in the current ADIZ? Maybe expand it to 40 or 50 miles?

Kind of an odd suggestion considering that the two worst terrorist attacks in this country involved airliners and wheeled vehicles (not sure if Oklahoma City was a truck or a van). In fact there has never been a terrorist attack using light GA aircraft in this or (to the best of my knowledge) any other country. Are you going to ban SUV's, rental trucks, and vans from all major cities?


Having said that, this guy must have had his head so far up his a$$ that the lump in his throat was his nose. Consider:

1. Not using VFR flight following

2. (apparently) not keeping a listening watch on 121.5

3. (apparently) not even a hand-held GPS to help with airspace issues

4. (apparently) attempting to navigate the DC airspace using only pilotage

5. The straight-line distance from Smoketown, PA to Lumberton, NC is 353 nm. That's kind of pushing it in a C150. Given the above, I'd be willing to bet he didn't even flight plan a fuel stop.

Perhaps in order to possibly avoid worse damage to GA (and the moron politicians implementing even tighter restrictions), the best thing would be for the FAA to crucify this guy. Permanently pull his ticket and make an example of him. Also, civil fine and confiscate the aircraft.


Greg

 

[flyifrvfr]

Ok friend, who's really rationalizing. The small aircraft advocates who "know" that a small aircraft couldn't be dangerous, or me, a person who is giving some sort of explanation as to why the authorities get so worked up about an errant small plane.


While some of you are busy burying your heads in the sand as you declare the lack of threat that small aircraft pose, the movers and shakers are moving closer and closer to completely legislating us out of the sky. Instead of telling them they are wrong, maybe we should try and understand what scares them. Like it or not, they have the power to completely shut us down, and just telling them that a C150 isn't a threat won't stop them.

I'm ready to support a total ban on non-commercial aviation anywhere withing a hundred miles of DC. I'd rather not, but if this kind of airspace violation continues we might end up with a total ban on a lot more airspace than just DC.

I still can't believe that these pilots busted the airspace, and I'm even more incredulous about the way that some of you are just blowing this off.

enigma

You are a complete moron. I gather that you don't make your living in the Baltimore Washington airspace. I instruct out of Martin State Airport and have witnessed first hand the decrease in GA activity there as a result of the ADIZ. If the ADIZ were to be extended any further it would do nothing but kill GA in this area which is already hurting from the existing ADIZ. You can support more restrictions as long as it is not in your back yard. You are no different from the idiots in the TSA and Homeland Security.

The ADIZ as it stands now has over-worked controllers who have to deal with the pilots who play by the rules and make a living in the ADIZ. As I said earlier, GA activity has decreased, but it has not yet died. Owners don't fly on a whim anymore, they need a reason to fly to justify the exposure to violations. In the ADIZ, if your transponder stops working you will be violated by the FAA and charged with numerous violations with the worst being careless and wreckless flying. I know of which I speak, I know many pilots who stopped flying after transponder failures earned them a violation. We have no way of knowing that the transponder has failed while we are flying and bingo, just like that, a record of careless and wreckless flying for what?

I have plans of flying for a regional and then going on to Netjets. Would Netjets hire me with this violation on my record? This is the risk I take each and everyday I fly in the ADIZ, and now you want to extend it or even an out-right ban just so you can fly in another part of the country, How ignorant and self centered!

GA is now the major pipeline to bigger and better things. I will explain this to you because you lack the brains to figure this out. I go to flight school and earn my CFI license. I then teach and build hours to move onto a 135 charter or 121 regional. I continue to pay my dues and land at a fractional which is where I want to be and worked so hard to get. How do you propose I earn my time to get to this level if non-commercial aviation was off limits. A very small portion of pilots come from the military which is the reverse of what was true long ago. I am too old to join the military, so I guess that my desire to fly is too bad because you want a ban on non-commercial aviation.

As I said, you are a complete moron.

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

awww, come awnnn, tell us how you really feel????

 

[flyifrvfr]

This thread has really bothered me just because people are buying into the problem of terrorism. First let me remind everyone that the terrorist struck the twin towers with a car bomb in 1993. They then waited patiently for 8 years to strike again. In this time, Tim McVeigh parked a Ryder truck in front of a federal building and blew it up Killing 160 some people.

Fast forward to Sept 11, 2001. Eight years go by and the terrorist board American ( as USA ) airliners and use these airliners as guided missles. The target once again the twin towers. The terrorist used our planes loaded with our people, and crashed them into our buildings. This is a huge blow to the American people. The terrorist struck to the heart of America by planning and executing an act of terrorism that will be remembered just as Pearl Harbor will be remembered.

The point of all of this is why would a terrorist jump in a small plane and kill himself for little impact? The terrorist are radical, not stupid. The terrorist are looking for big numbers. This concerns me because I can't think of what they will do next. I just don't think that small planes are of interest to terrorist because of the lack of damage they can do.

 

[CorpLearDriver]

RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!! IT'S A CESSNA 152!!!

Here's the Bumpersticker

http://www.cafepress.com/pacificnwflying.22331165

 

[lowlycfi]

From AOPA....

AIRSPACE VIOLATION A CLEAR LESSON FOR ALL PILOTS
Pilots must take responsibility for every part of their flight, including understanding local airspace, conducting proper flight planning, and managing navigation. That's the lesson all pilots can take from Wednesday's incursion into the flight-restricted airspace around Washington, D.C. "Every pilot is responsible for proper flight planning, and in today's security environment you just can't afford to make mistakes," said AOPA President Phil Boyer. The White House, Capitol, and Supreme Court were among the buildings evacuated when Hayden Sheaffer, a certificated pilot but not a flight instructor as some media reported, and Troy Martin, a student pilot, strayed into the air defense identification zone (ADIZ) and within three miles of the Capitol in their Cessna 150. The two were flying from their home base at Pennsylvania's Smoketown Airport, to a fly-in in Lumberton, North Carolina, when they were intercepted by military aircraft and diverted to Maryland's Frederick Municipal Airport.

AOPA SETS RECORD STRAIGHT
While there's no excuse for violating such highly publicized, sensitive airspace, there's also no excuse for getting the facts wrong. That's why, in the hours after the incident, AOPA President Phil Boyer and members of the AOPA media relations staff focused on correcting the many factual errors and misconceptions appearing in news reports. AOPA staff spoke with dozens of television networks, local television and radio stations, newspapers, and wire services in an effort to correct the sometimes-outrageous statements being made by so-called aviation experts with little or no understanding of general aviation. "A Cessna 150 is an extremely small two-seat airplane. Even fully loaded it weighs significantly less than a Honda Civic," Boyer explained. "It's simply incapable of doing much damage." In one case, law enforcement authorities indicated that the airplane had been stolen. In fact, both men on board were part owners of the airplane and had followed their flying club's scheduling procedures for the trip. See AOPA Online.

 

[TDTURBO]

No, it is one of the most clearly written statements in this thread. A private pilot may carry a passenger. It doesn't matter if that passenger is another pilot, a student, or a non pilot. I'm not finding the misinterpretation that you are.

Ok Gk, that's what I thought you meant.

As for the guy that looked up to see if the guy was a CFI, It takes months before it gets on the FAA's list. I have a Multi rating and 2 months later it still doesn't show up. So checking ratings on the FAA site doesn't mean anything, the guy that was with him was a CFI.

 

[lowlycfi]

As for the guy that looked up to see if the guy was a CFI, It takes months before it gets on the FAA's list. I have a Multi rating and 2 months later it still doesn't show up. So checking ratings on the FAA site doesn't mean anything, the guy that was with him was a CFI.

Dude where are you getting this from? The guy was not a CFI. BTW, his date of issue on his certificate was 1969. I agree it takes some time for the registry to update your certificates, but I don't think this guy got an instrument rating, commercial certificate and the CFI in the last two months. Read the AOPA article. Believe it or not, the media sometimes makes mistakes.

From the registry:

HAYDEN LOWERY SHEAFFER JR

Address

Street 1209 ORCHARD RD
CityLITITZ StatePENNSYLVANIA CountyLANCASTER Zip Code17543-9702 CountryUNITED STATES​

Medical

Medical Class :ThirdMedical Date:06/2003
<LI>MUST WEAR CORRECTIVE LENSES.


Certificates

1 of 1

DOI :10/25/1969Certificate:PRIVATE PILOT​

Rating(s): PRIVATE PILOT
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND​

 

[Traumahawk]

This just goes to show how much safer we are since 911, and especially after the supremely timed invasion of IRAQ. I mean hey, I feel Safe.

WOW...a cessna 150 nearly shut-down the capitol of the most powerful country in the world.

Perhaps after this incident, we could reason that Abu Dabi may have cessna's of mass destruction and tactfully invade by sending even more Americans abroad to march around the streets like sitting ducks.....

Of course Bush will ride horses at his ranch recollecting his days of war....

Ahhhhh.....go ahead, say it. I'm a commie pinko tree hugging bleeding heart liberal. ...Try again.

 

[sky37d]

These folks busted at least 8 FARS, and should be hung out to dry. They should be fined, never allowed near an airport or an airplane. I fly a bug smasher, and I like what Phil Boyer had to say

"I am frustrated as hell,"
"How, with four million emails last year about TFRs, with two
education campaigns that still exist on our website, with
partnering with TSA for things, with editorials, with constant
pressure -- how can pilots within a shadow of the DC area ignore
all that and fly into the heart of the ADIZ?"

I just don't understand how they could be so stupid, and they ought to be drawn and quartered for their stupidity.

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

i concur, quarter the old bastard and make /G a mandatory ADIZ equipment

 

[LXApilot]

I Aint Skeered

When is everyone going to settle down and take this for what it is? When President Clinton was in the White House a Cessna 152 crashed directly into the White House- and there was hardly a news blurb about it. With the news coverage they give 'Bushie' and those 'law breaking, FAR violating, general aviation pilots' that the National Guard was prepared to shoot down, got everyones panties in a wad. Who cares- REALLY? Has the threat environment really changed? No. Are mad men more likely to crash airplanes into the White House today than in 1997? No. Will Al-Qaeda or any other terrorist organization ever use another suicide airline attack again? No. Come on people, the terrorist are smart- and they go with the element of surprise. They've already been there, done that. But of course, anything to make the peon's feel 'safer' at the expense of civil liberty and the privlidge of plying the American skies. What happens in the skies over America should NOT be public. It should be privlidged information to law enforcement, defense, FAA, and airspace users. Just a thought- nobody cares about a 152. If we have a Gulfstream or bigger NORDO in P-40, then my ears will perk up...

 

[TDTURBO]

Lowly CFI,

I agree the media is wrong more than they are correct, my source is pretty accurate because he knows the pilot. I also just heard on the news again that he was a CFI. I know this doesn't mean anything except that the media can't be trusted, neither can the FAA or their records. I guess we will just have to wait until the final report. Even those are scewed and full of errors. I think it best we all fly with a handheld GPS with battery backup to keep us out of situations like this. For less than 500 bucks you can save yourself a lot of grief. CFI or not, anyone that violates TFR's are just going to ruin it for everone else, I think they should have shot him down, then pilots would get the message.

 

[flyifrvfr]

i concur, quarter the old bastard and make /G a mandatory ADIZ equipment

Slash Golf is not the answer Mr. Garmin. A GPS can get you into as much trouble as it gets you out of. The problem is that GA was not responsible for the failure of the INS,CIA,FBI to keep track of aliens on expired Visas. Because the Government has egg on their collective faces, they choose to establish onerous airspace restrictions and hand out violations for equipment failure that we have no control over.

The government is operating in a knee-jerk reaction fashion. They have pulled the wool over the eyes of the public. The public thinks that If the government thinks GA is a risk then GA must be a risk and should be banned. That will stop the terrorist. Ban GA and remove those dangerous Cessna 150's out of the air. Do you know how Ryder truck responded to the OKC bombing. You must have a valid credit card to rent a Ryder truck now. This should stop the terrorist with bad credit.......

 

[flyifrvfr]

Lowly CFI,

I agree the media is wrong more than they are correct, my source is pretty accurate because he knows the pilot. I also just heard on the news again that he was a CFI. I know this doesn't mean anything except that the media can't be trusted, neither can the FAA or their records. I guess we will just have to wait until the final report. Even those are scewed and full of errors. I think it best we all fly with a handheld GPS with battery backup to keep us out of situations like this. For less than 500 bucks you can save yourself a lot of grief. CFI or not, anyone that violates TFR's are just going to ruin it for everone else, I think they should have shot him down, then pilots would get the message.

How would you like a police officer to shoot you because you fail to use a turn signal. Maybe you went through a redlight and a police officer sees this and pulls up next to you and riddles you with bulletts. I mean after all, you know what a redlight means. You have been driving long enough to know that redlight runners are dangerous and have caused accidents in the past. Shooting you will send a message to all drivers that running a redlight will not be tolerated....

 

[enigma]

Hi there bud, this is the moron speaking.

You are a complete moron.

That explains why I'm responding to you, .........and why I still stay in this business. You and my ex-wife sure got me figured out.

I gather that you don't make your living in the Baltimore Washington airspace. I instruct out of Martin State Airport and have witnessed first hand the decrease in GA activity there as a result of the ADIZ. If the ADIZ were to be extended any further it would do nothing but kill GA in this area which is already hurting from the existing ADIZ. You can support more restrictions as long as it is not in your back yard.

You gather correctly, I suggest that you consider the effect on your precious GA activity if some terrorist actually uses a Cessna and hits something in the DC proper. It won't matter if he does any serious damage to the object he hits, the max damage will be to GA, probably nationwide.

I support increasing the no fly zones ADIZ specifically to help you keep that GA job. It may please you to know that I also support shutting down National, PERIOD. That would be in my back yard. I am willing to put my money where my mouth is, you apparently choose your wallet over national security. If you happen to have forgotten, the bad guys are out to get us, September 11 wasn't a single event.

You are no different from the idiots in the TSA and Homeland Security.

Now that hurts, deeply.

The ADIZ as it stands now has over-worked controllers who have to deal with the pilots who play by the rules and make a living in the ADIZ. As I said earlier, GA activity has decreased, but it has not yet died. Owners don't fly on a whim anymore, they need a reason to fly to justify the exposure to violations. In the ADIZ, if your transponder stops working you will be violated by the FAA and charged with numerous violations with the worst being careless and wreckless flying. I know of which I speak, I know many pilots who stopped flying after transponder failures earned them a violation. We have no way of knowing that the transponder has failed while we are flying and bingo, just like that, a record of careless and wreckless flying for what?

OK everyone listen up, flyifrvfr's finances have been hurt by airspace restrictions. Could someone please arrange for ADIZ to go away.

Brother, you sound like the radio commercials where a prospective home seller calls the NYSE and asks for the bell ringer. I'm sorry that you happen to live near the Capital. Maybe you need to consider moving to an area more conducive to continued flight training opportunites.

I have plans of flying for a regional and then going on to Netjets. Would Netjets hire me with this violation on my record? This is the risk I take each and everyday I fly in the ADIZ, and now you want to extend it or even an out-right ban just so you can fly in another part of the country, How ignorant and self centered!

How ignorant and celf centered! Wow, I couldn't have said it better myself.

GA is now the major pipeline to bigger and better things. I will explain this to you because you lack the brains to figure this out. I go to flight school and earn my CFI license. I then teach and build hours to move onto a 135 charter or 121 regional. I continue to pay my dues and land at a fractional which is where I want to be and worked so hard to get.

Darn, I never realized how a PROFESSIONAL AVIATOR came to be.Thanks for giving me that scoop.

How do you propose I earn my time to get to this level if non-commercial aviation was off limits.

How do you propose to earn your time if a terrorist happens to get as close to the Whitehouse as did this 150?

A very small portion of pilots come from the military which is the reverse of what was true long ago. I am too old to join the military, so I guess that my desire to fly is too bad because you want a ban on non-commercial aviation.

As I said, you are a complete moron.

Frankly my friend, your opinion of me doesn't matter. If we were face to face, maybe I could challenge you to a duel. But alas, we'll never meet. I had so hoped to be able to make your acquantance, in the mean time I'll just have to ask you to consider the effect on your livelyhood, and the freedoms of a lot of us if the next 150 happens to be piloted by a Atta wannabe?


To anyone who has read this far, I support increasing the ADIZ radius because that is the only way to give the F16's adequate time to assess the threat. I suspect that those to guys from PA came about fifteen seconds from eating lead. That would be tragic, and I expect that they would have had even less of a break had they been flying something like a Bonanza or Baron.

I know that some of us don't like to see the media/government take gratuitous potshots at an easy target like GA, but like it or not, they have the power to shut us down. If more stuff like this happens, I'm afraid that the restrictions will be much more severe than just increasing the ADIZ size around the DC area.

enigma

 

[flyifrvfr]

Enigma, if GA were to be shut down in the BAlto/Wash area, how long would it take to do that where you live? While you say you support a larger ADIZ, you give more ammunition to the terrorist because of your fear. Your reaction is exactly the same as the general public and that makes you as ignorant as they are.

If you think that a terrorist is going to use a Cessna 150 as a weapon you are sadly mistaken. In the late 90's a Cessna 150 did indeed hit the Whitehouse. The suicidal pilot decapitated himself and broke a window. In other words someone has been there and done that. How many airports do you think were harmed by the existing ADIZ? How many businesses will be lost under the blanket of national security? Are you more secure now that there is a ADIZ and FRZ around D.C.?

What would stop a terrorist from buying weapons and going to D.C. and shoot as many people on the streets as they can? Since this is a possibilty, should we ban all guns? What would stop a terrorist from spiking the food supply with chemicals? Should we ban all food? What I think of people like you would get me put in the penalty box for sure If I told you. AS for meeting me for a duel knowing that you live in fear brings me more joy than mere words could express. Fear, can you smell it???

 

[minitour]

How about instead of enlargin the ADIZ, or requiring IFR only or airline only or even /G required we do this:

You bust the airspace (with the current requirements and nothing more), they send up an "escort".
They send out the flares once. If you don't follow them, the only thing left of you is a vapor trail...

For IFR peeps, we can develope a published procedure for if/when you go NORDO in IMC and one for if you're VMC (specific airports to land at or get ouf of the ADIZ). Don't do it and you get the "escort". If you don't follow them, see above.

I'm okay with that. Is it a deterrent for me to fly around that area? Yeah! But does it mean GA will die in that area? Hardly. Lots of people will still be able to do what they do every day in that area.

MHO

-mini

 

[airspeed]

After reading most of the posts regarding this topic its pretty clear that people on this board were in favor of the C150 getting shot down. I guess human life doesnt mean that much anymore and everyone in favor of this can honestly say they deserved it??? Does that really make any sense? Noone hear was in that plane that day and although one may wonder how the hell did they screw up that bad everyone makes mistakes. Should they get there tickets suspended, sure I agree with that. Revoked, so it sets an example for who?? Oh I get it we will revoke your ticket to set an example to make sure you never make a mistake like that again, might as well take humans out of the cockpit and use only UAV's, but wait dont computers mess up too? It was a bad day, a bad situation and yes I agree they should get there tickets suspended. I hightly doubt they did this intentionally. Why I am against a shootdown should be obvious and hell if Bush was gone the world IMHO would be a better place, yeah thats **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** right I said that! Someone on here posted that these pilots should never be in an airplane again, give me a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** break. If you never made a mistake in your life then you have the right to say that I guess but I highly doubt it. IMHO again the more laws in the name of homeland security and no fly zones that are passed the tighter the noose around our necks. I am sure anyone can see that!

 

[TDTURBO]

How would you like a police officer to shoot you because you fail to use a turn signal. Maybe you went through a redlight and a police officer sees this and pulls up next to you and riddles you with bulletts. I mean after all, you know what a redlight means. You have been driving long enough to know that redlight runners are dangerous and have caused accidents in the past. Shooting you will send a message to all drivers that running a redlight will not be tolerated....

Turn signal huh?

What are you talking about? Flying 3 miles from the white house is a little different than not using a turn signal. Anyone stupid enough to do what this pilot did deserves a SAM up his ass.
I doubt anyone would disagree with me either.

BTW: How do you like your avitar since you got it from me?