Brett Hull
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where is njaowner?
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Brett Hull
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Not quite what I was getting at, but I understand your point 100%.
The point I was trying to make was, obviously netjetwife's husband is a sharp dude - you kinda have to be to be a fighter pilot. If the job he has now pays so poorly, and their financial position is so bad that we're discussing tips to cover extra income, there has to be something else out there he's qualified to do where he can make more money until you guys get this deal worked out (and I hope you guys get everything you're asking for...imo, you should be asking for more, you deserve it). My assumption was that him being a fighter pilot, he might enjoy getting back in the seat - and the paycheck that comes with it. He's definitely qualified for it.
I don't think any professional pilot should have to work two jobs to make ends meet, or "work another job to subsidize your flying habit", especially if you have a wife/husband/kids at home. But you have to do something to pay the bills if your primary job doesn't provide you enough income to pay them. And if you have to do it, it may as well be something you enjoy. And I'm also not saying "if you don't like it, quit". Someone has to stay there and fight for a change. I applaud both of you for doing your part.
Begging for a few bucks in tips ain't gonna pay the mortgage, though.
The point I was trying to make was, obviously netjetwife's husband is a sharp dude - you kinda have to be to be a fighter pilot. If the job he has now pays so poorly, and their financial position is so bad that we're discussing tips to cover extra income, there has to be something else out there he's qualified to do where he can make more money until you guys get this deal worked out (and I hope you guys get everything you're asking for...imo, you should be asking for more, you deserve it). My assumption was that him being a fighter pilot, he might enjoy getting back in the seat - and the paycheck that comes with it. He's definitely qualified for it.
I don't think any professional pilot should have to work two jobs to make ends meet, or "work another job to subsidize your flying habit", especially if you have a wife/husband/kids at home. But you have to do something to pay the bills if your primary job doesn't provide you enough income to pay them. And if you have to do it, it may as well be something you enjoy. And I'm also not saying "if you don't like it, quit". Someone has to stay there and fight for a change. I applaud both of you for doing your part.
Begging for a few bucks in tips ain't gonna pay the mortgage, though.
doyouknowme
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NJA Owner a Moment Pt. 2
NJA Owner
Thank you for your reply. No, you really don’t know me, but I only carry an American Express.
Do you have employees? Do you pay them based upon their expertise, their experience and knowledge? Or do you split the group based on their seniority, project, or where they live?
You say you are paid fairly. Do you think the pilots would like a fair wage? I believe they would. I am paid for the services I perform for my company. I am paid a fair wage for the skills, experience and knowledge by the company I work for, but I believe the pilots at NJA are not. I have seen first hand the outlay of money the pilots must expend, sure some of it is reimbursable, but often times it is not. Life on the road is not easy for the pilots. They miss important dates, such as birthdays, anniversaries and holidays. They miss their children growing up, since they are gone for a half a year or better.
Moving to another company may not be an option for most. Many believe that NJA is the place to end their career, not start it. So please understand the frustrations of the pilots and their spouses, wondering why it seems hard to keep their families above the poverty level.
Thank you again for your time,
Doyouknowme
P.S. Do you own a boat? I have an anchor I’d be willing to give you.
NJA Owner
Thank you for your reply. No, you really don’t know me, but I only carry an American Express.
Do you have employees? Do you pay them based upon their expertise, their experience and knowledge? Or do you split the group based on their seniority, project, or where they live?
You say you are paid fairly. Do you think the pilots would like a fair wage? I believe they would. I am paid for the services I perform for my company. I am paid a fair wage for the skills, experience and knowledge by the company I work for, but I believe the pilots at NJA are not. I have seen first hand the outlay of money the pilots must expend, sure some of it is reimbursable, but often times it is not. Life on the road is not easy for the pilots. They miss important dates, such as birthdays, anniversaries and holidays. They miss their children growing up, since they are gone for a half a year or better.
Moving to another company may not be an option for most. Many believe that NJA is the place to end their career, not start it. So please understand the frustrations of the pilots and their spouses, wondering why it seems hard to keep their families above the poverty level.
Thank you again for your time,
Doyouknowme
P.S. Do you own a boat? I have an anchor I’d be willing to give you.
netjetwife
1 of many w/an opinion
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Too many assumptions, Brett.
I deliberately said personal KNOWLEDGE instead of experience, when stating the reduced lunch price. AF retirement keeps that "wolf" from our door, BUT it is no thanks to NJA. THOSE wages DO qualify, and we have other FO/FO friends on WIC/food stamps. I'm speaking here for a number of wives, w/their blessing.
Like beytzim, my husband is exploring other options, as a back up plan. That said, we are committed to seeing this insulting TA soundly voted down. We realized after about 6 months that we'd been strung along, but tried to remain hopeful while he worked off the seatlocked 2yr training contract, which will be up in Jan. In the meantime, we're giving our all to this fight. If the TA (God forbid) were to pass, he will not be the only pilot bailing out. At that point, I'd hope that ALL owners would be concerned.
Brett ( also my brother's name), please be careful w/your choice of words also. There is a huge difference between "begging" and discussing. Nonetheless, it may interest you to know that tipping the pilots is not as uncommon as you seem to think. The other wives' husbands have also been tipped. NO ONE has asked for this, but the fact remains that some owners do recognize they have received special treatment---one of the things NJA is known for--and choose to show their appreciation accordingly. Apparently, those owners/px are following the etiquette rule for tipping which states: You do not tip the flightcrew UNLESS they have performed personal services above and beyond flying. Obviously, loading bags, serving catering, and arranging ground transportation, is viewed by many owners as going the "extra mile". Miss Manners has spoken.
NJW
AF retirement pays the mortgage and "double dipping" is not allowed. I , too, thought he should be allowed to fly for the guard like so many airline pilots that did their time and got out. IMO, the pilots that serve until retirement are penalized for doing so, in that instance.Brett Hull said:
I deliberately said personal KNOWLEDGE instead of experience, when stating the reduced lunch price. AF retirement keeps that "wolf" from our door, BUT it is no thanks to NJA. THOSE wages DO qualify, and we have other FO/FO friends on WIC/food stamps. I'm speaking here for a number of wives, w/their blessing.
Like beytzim, my husband is exploring other options, as a back up plan. That said, we are committed to seeing this insulting TA soundly voted down. We realized after about 6 months that we'd been strung along, but tried to remain hopeful while he worked off the seatlocked 2yr training contract, which will be up in Jan. In the meantime, we're giving our all to this fight. If the TA (God forbid) were to pass, he will not be the only pilot bailing out. At that point, I'd hope that ALL owners would be concerned.
Brett ( also my brother's name), please be careful w/your choice of words also. There is a huge difference between "begging" and discussing. Nonetheless, it may interest you to know that tipping the pilots is not as uncommon as you seem to think. The other wives' husbands have also been tipped. NO ONE has asked for this, but the fact remains that some owners do recognize they have received special treatment---one of the things NJA is known for--and choose to show their appreciation accordingly. Apparently, those owners/px are following the etiquette rule for tipping which states: You do not tip the flightcrew UNLESS they have performed personal services above and beyond flying. Obviously, loading bags, serving catering, and arranging ground transportation, is viewed by many owners as going the "extra mile". Miss Manners has spoken.
NJW
netjetwife
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I'm not the pilot. I don't get it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by netjetwife
Jeff is assigned to Centennial/Denver and flies in the Rockies quite a bit. Which airport do you fly into? He says that Telluride can be very difficult esp, in the winter. He had to land there on an icy runway with a strong cross wind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by netjetwife
Jeff is assigned to Centennial/Denver and flies in the Rockies quite a bit. Which airport do you fly into? He says that Telluride can be very difficult esp, in the winter. He had to land there on an icy runway with a strong cross wind.
Are you calling my husband stupid? Or are you suggesting that the instructions were stupid...dangerous? He was told to land there and did his best for the owner..FracCapt said:
Flyingdutchman
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We are never "told to land" anywhere. The PIC and really both crew members have veto power over any flight operation that they feel is a bad idea. I don't know the situation that your husband faced so I can't and wouldn't comment if I thought it was stupid... or dangerous.netjetwife said:
I am sure he painted a somewhat overly dramatic picture for you for entertainment value! None of the flights we do should so much as elevate a pilots heart rate. When I was young and foolish adrenalin rushes were a daily occurance. Now if I have one I know I did something I shouldn't have!
Tips/Gratuities: Contradictions
How are the above 2 quotes (posted by the same person) reconciled, if at all? There seems to be a contradiction here.
Regarding my earlier post regarding Part 91, Subpart K, 14 hour duty days, and netjetwife's response (she doesn't know, will ask her husband): If you don't know, that's okay. Point is the reg allows for 14 hour duty days. If they constitute a genuine safety issue, seems action at regulatory level (including official pre-enactment "comment") would have been appropriate. But just an observation. Pretty much out of this thread. Good luck to all.
In a later post, netjetwife quotes "Miss Manners" as saying: "Don't tip the flight crew unless they have performed PERSONAL SERVICES ABOVE AND BEYOND FLYING." (emphasis supplied)netjetwife said:
How are the above 2 quotes (posted by the same person) reconciled, if at all? There seems to be a contradiction here.
Regarding my earlier post regarding Part 91, Subpart K, 14 hour duty days, and netjetwife's response (she doesn't know, will ask her husband): If you don't know, that's okay. Point is the reg allows for 14 hour duty days. If they constitute a genuine safety issue, seems action at regulatory level (including official pre-enactment "comment") would have been appropriate. But just an observation. Pretty much out of this thread. Good luck to all.
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netjetwife
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Clearing up the confusion.
I agree it seems inconsistant, but it is easily explained. In response to NJOwner's request for guidance in tipping (see earlier posts), my husband shared his thoughts, which I posted. He suggested the tip reflect the flight--good weather/bad weather. As the debate continued, I felt that it would be helpful to all if I could provide the correct etiquette rule that addressed tipping pilots. I did find and post the rule--Pilots aren't tipped UNLESS they perform personal services above and beyond flying the plane. Those pilots that are receiving a monetary "thank you" have flown owners/px that know and follow rules of etiquette, apparently. Or, also very likely, appreciate the extra efforts the pilots have made on their behalf and want, instinctively, to express their gratitude. In either case, these px are generally the more sophisticated members of our society, savvy on tipping, and I believe it is correct to follow their lead without hesitation. Once again, let me state quite clearly. I do NOT advocate asking, hinting, suggesting, etc for tips. When they are given freely, pilots should smile and say thank you. There is nothing demeaning or degrading about it. The tip is for going above and beyond the call of duty (flying). It is recognition that an extra effort was made and personal service given.
Just to pass on the results of my research--many websites talked of how confusing the question of tipping is (don't we know it!) and how it can be a source of stress and embarrassment for travelers. Knowing that, I'd urge any of you out there who got a tip --even if you only flew the plane--to graciously accept it and avoid embarrassing the px with a refusal.
I haven't had a chance to ask about 91K, but from a layperson's perspective and a wife's concern, I'd like to point out that there is a big difference between making allowances for the occassional 14 hr day, and scheduling them repeatedly because the company has a policy of "doing more with less" when it comes to its pilot force. The first is understandable, the latter unacceptable.
Good luck to you too, Lawfly!
lawfly said:
I agree it seems inconsistant, but it is easily explained. In response to NJOwner's request for guidance in tipping (see earlier posts), my husband shared his thoughts, which I posted. He suggested the tip reflect the flight--good weather/bad weather. As the debate continued, I felt that it would be helpful to all if I could provide the correct etiquette rule that addressed tipping pilots. I did find and post the rule--Pilots aren't tipped UNLESS they perform personal services above and beyond flying the plane. Those pilots that are receiving a monetary "thank you" have flown owners/px that know and follow rules of etiquette, apparently. Or, also very likely, appreciate the extra efforts the pilots have made on their behalf and want, instinctively, to express their gratitude. In either case, these px are generally the more sophisticated members of our society, savvy on tipping, and I believe it is correct to follow their lead without hesitation. Once again, let me state quite clearly. I do NOT advocate asking, hinting, suggesting, etc for tips. When they are given freely, pilots should smile and say thank you. There is nothing demeaning or degrading about it. The tip is for going above and beyond the call of duty (flying). It is recognition that an extra effort was made and personal service given.
Just to pass on the results of my research--many websites talked of how confusing the question of tipping is (don't we know it!) and how it can be a source of stress and embarrassment for travelers. Knowing that, I'd urge any of you out there who got a tip --even if you only flew the plane--to graciously accept it and avoid embarrassing the px with a refusal.
I haven't had a chance to ask about 91K, but from a layperson's perspective and a wife's concern, I'd like to point out that there is a big difference between making allowances for the occassional 14 hr day, and scheduling them repeatedly because the company has a policy of "doing more with less" when it comes to its pilot force. The first is understandable, the latter unacceptable.
Good luck to you too, Lawfly!
Semore Butts
Well-known member
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Wow, how did we get here?
I was good enough to get a guard job flying on the weekends to make ends meet. Thats why I live somewhere in Iraq now on my 1 year tour. But why should I have too?
How many other professional people have 2 jobs to make ends meet?
Netjets wife pointed out previously that her husband was retired. Do the math, It would not be very wise financially to come out of retirement to get a guard job.
Hell, I'll be active duty for years to come if I can't get a decent wage at Netjets.
It's a Catch 22. If I can't make a decent wage, and I stay in the Reserves to make ends meet, I get deployed. If I cant make ends meet, I stay in the reserves to make ends meet, I get deployed.
Let me please mention however that I feel that I'm serving in a worthy cause, a battle that has to be fought and won.
Aside of that, It would be nice to have a decent job to come home too.
Sh%t a cold beer would be great! The TA? I'm sorry, I just can't believe the way corporate America has become. It just f***king stymies me to think that "gaffing" the pilots for a decent wage is some corporate game that is played with 2000 pilots and their families.
Please excuse me for rambling, I haven't been drinking for awhile.
I was good enough to get a guard job flying on the weekends to make ends meet. Thats why I live somewhere in Iraq now on my 1 year tour. But why should I have too?
How many other professional people have 2 jobs to make ends meet?
Netjets wife pointed out previously that her husband was retired. Do the math, It would not be very wise financially to come out of retirement to get a guard job.
Hell, I'll be active duty for years to come if I can't get a decent wage at Netjets.
It's a Catch 22. If I can't make a decent wage, and I stay in the Reserves to make ends meet, I get deployed. If I cant make ends meet, I stay in the reserves to make ends meet, I get deployed.
Let me please mention however that I feel that I'm serving in a worthy cause, a battle that has to be fought and won.
Aside of that, It would be nice to have a decent job to come home too.
Sh%t a cold beer would be great! The TA? I'm sorry, I just can't believe the way corporate America has become. It just f***king stymies me to think that "gaffing" the pilots for a decent wage is some corporate game that is played with 2000 pilots and their families.
Please excuse me for rambling, I haven't been drinking for awhile.
netjetwife
1 of many w/an opinion
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Offering support--
Semore, If you are married, please tell your wife (if she hasn't already) to register for the wives' board. We are supporting the wife of our NJ pilot that is flying in Afghanistan (same situation!), and we'd be happy to lend moral support to your wife, too. If she needs the info/link just PM me and I'll help her get hooked up. Take care, NJW
Semore, If you are married, please tell your wife (if she hasn't already) to register for the wives' board. We are supporting the wife of our NJ pilot that is flying in Afghanistan (same situation!), and we'd be happy to lend moral support to your wife, too. If she needs the info/link just PM me and I'll help her get hooked up. Take care, NJW
Cold Beer
Semore - -thanks for your efforts both here and "over there". It is greatly appreciated. If there was a way to attach cold beer (or even warm beer) to this email, I'd send a few cases over for you and your squadron. Heck -- the whole unit.
Thank you.
(and especially you) Fly safe.
Semore - -thanks for your efforts both here and "over there". It is greatly appreciated. If there was a way to attach cold beer (or even warm beer) to this email, I'd send a few cases over for you and your squadron. Heck -- the whole unit.
Thank you.
(and especially you) Fly safe.
Stop talking about tips please, if it happens it happens. We need to negotiate for fair wages for a job well done. I have never expected tips for the job I do, and will not in the future. This dead horse has been beat to death again!
Emotions are high for all that are concerned with this industry. Cool heads and logic will prevail in the end. We need to stop bashing Netjetswife and give her a place to vent. My wife is just as upset about the situation but doesnt choose to do it here.
NJAOwner may or may not be who he is, but he does add a different perspective to this discussion. Calling him a liar or a troll doesn't add to the discussion. He knows alot about the company and I have no reason to not believe him.
The whole fractional industry and part of the Corporate jet world is watching what we do here. We need to negotiate hard and be able to shake hands and feel good about what we eventually ratify.
The owners may or may not care what we make, but they do care whether the jet will be there after they call owner services. If it comes down to parking the jets, thats when the owners will get involved. I'm ready to step up the negotiations to the next level after this TA is voted down. We will soon see how poor the company is. It's just business!!!
Emotions are high for all that are concerned with this industry. Cool heads and logic will prevail in the end. We need to stop bashing Netjetswife and give her a place to vent. My wife is just as upset about the situation but doesnt choose to do it here.
NJAOwner may or may not be who he is, but he does add a different perspective to this discussion. Calling him a liar or a troll doesn't add to the discussion. He knows alot about the company and I have no reason to not believe him.
The whole fractional industry and part of the Corporate jet world is watching what we do here. We need to negotiate hard and be able to shake hands and feel good about what we eventually ratify.
The owners may or may not care what we make, but they do care whether the jet will be there after they call owner services. If it comes down to parking the jets, thats when the owners will get involved. I'm ready to step up the negotiations to the next level after this TA is voted down. We will soon see how poor the company is. It's just business!!!
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netjetwife
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If you had bothered to read the beginning of the thread, you would know how this debate started. Seeing the opportunity to "speak" to an owner, I asked about things that I'd been curious about for sometime. I asked 3 questions and everyone focused on 1 and misstated what actually took place.Sctt@NJA said:
A few questions please---
NJAowner, what is your POSITION on tipping the pilots? Would you be embarrassed if it became public knowledge that one of your flight crew receives government assistance? Do you find it misleading to be told that there are two captains in every plane, when in reality there is one captain and one first officer that is forced to have a captain's rating but is paid much less than some of the limo drivers? I have no problem believing that you are an owner, as I truly am a wife.
Netjetwife
The owner posted his reply, answering in his own fashion, 1 of my 3 questions, which then led to numerous accusations, all unfounded, that I was ASKING for tips for my husband. It was only, ever, an academic discussion of the issue.
Tips
NetJetWife - I have covered the tips dicussion on the board several times in the past. But, I am flying next week and may try to get some feedback on this with a trial balloon. Please help me and I may try it.
How much do I tip the Capt and F.O.? Should I give the Capt. more? $50 each, $100 each?? 15% of the cost of my hourly fee for the flight (this I will not agree to)? 18% if I have a party of 6 or more on the flight? 15% of the onboard catering bill?
I am not being sarcastic. What do you expect your husband to receive as a tip and what would you (or he) consider insulting?
Thanks.
(Please tell him to ) Fly safe
Clearly the owner,also, wanted the opportunity to satisfy his own curiosity. He could have said he was against tipping and moved on to my other questions. He had assured me that he was serious in asking those questions, so I took him at his word and did my best to answer them. As the debate raged on, I felt we all could use the advice of an expert in etiquette so I researched the subject and posted my findings. I stand by those, and my comments. To ASK for a tip is in very bad taste and something that I would never do. My husband has received tips in the past so clearly his habit of going the extra mile reaps its own reward, based solely on his personal efforts. Perhaps now we could move on to the 2 remaining unanswered questions?
NJW
netjetwife
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Yes, let's move on to something else---
The questions I think we should ask the owner are: How do you think the owners would respond to informational picketing? Would it make an impression to see the pilots' wives and children holding signs at the FBOs?
I can assure all of you that there ARE wives waiting in the wings, willing to carry signs. I have cautioned them to wait for direction from StrongUnion. If they gave the word, I'd be one of the first out the door. Then all you guys who doubt that I'm really a wife could come meet me in person....lol
The questions I think we should ask the owner are: How do you think the owners would respond to informational picketing? Would it make an impression to see the pilots' wives and children holding signs at the FBOs?
I can assure all of you that there ARE wives waiting in the wings, willing to carry signs. I have cautioned them to wait for direction from StrongUnion. If they gave the word, I'd be one of the first out the door. Then all you guys who doubt that I'm really a wife could come meet me in person....lol
netjetwife
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Getting my money's worth!
Griz, I could give a testimonial for Blue Mountain.com! What a great deal that service has turned out to be. You guys are getting my 165th ecard for the month of Sept--that's right--one month! Our wives support group has really taken off!
Click on the following link.
http://www.bluemountain.com/view.pd?i=102927291&m=1932&rr=y&source=bma999
Griz, I could give a testimonial for Blue Mountain.com! What a great deal that service has turned out to be. You guys are getting my 165th ecard for the month of Sept--that's right--one month! Our wives support group has really taken off!
Click on the following link.
http://www.bluemountain.com/view.pd?i=102927291&m=1932&rr=y&source=bma999
Pickets
NetJetWife: In my opinion, pickets by the wives and children at FBOs will backfire in a major way. I have stated many times how I think the pilots can enlist the support of the owners to effect change. Pickets and refusals to fly will infuriate owners, but cause them to support management. Don't forget, you are not starting off with a group which is sympathetic to unions to start with. Then if you drag the owners' families into it, it will backfire. I already told you a real life reaction to a FO bringing an owner's family into your pay dispute.
Fly safe.
NetJetWife: In my opinion, pickets by the wives and children at FBOs will backfire in a major way. I have stated many times how I think the pilots can enlist the support of the owners to effect change. Pickets and refusals to fly will infuriate owners, but cause them to support management. Don't forget, you are not starting off with a group which is sympathetic to unions to start with. Then if you drag the owners' families into it, it will backfire. I already told you a real life reaction to a FO bringing an owner's family into your pay dispute.
Fly safe.
I have to agree with NJAowner. Don't bring an owner into pay disputes. You agreed to the pay when you went to work there. It's because of the owners that you have jobs. The conflicts should be settled in the proper manner using the proper forum. Whining and complaining will not achieve your result.
To the pilots-you are a professional group. Keep it out of the streets and maintain your professionalism.
To the pilots-you are a professional group. Keep it out of the streets and maintain your professionalism.
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