where is njaowner?

[netjetwife]

Misunderstood again...

NJAowner, what is your position on tipping the pilots? Would you be embarrassed if it became public knowledge that one of your flight crew receives government assistance? Do you find it misleading to be told that there are two captains in every plane, when in reality there is one captain and one first officer that is forced to have a captain's rating but is paid much less than some of the limo drivers? I have no problem believing that you are an owner, as I truly am a wife.
Netjetwife

Owner, I am quoting myself to point out to you that I did not request a tip for my husband. I was simply trying to make the most of the opportunity of "speaking" to one of the owners, by asking about some of those issues that I have been curious about. You guys turned one of three questions into a plea and ignored the other two. My comments/guidelines on tipping were meant to help those owners that WANT to show their appreciation in that manner, if you are not in that group, owner, than by all means, do not tip the flightcrew. My advice (passed on from my husband) to make the tip reflect the difficulty of the flight refers only to those conditions obvious to the owner. Simply a suggestion that the owners that WANT TO TIP could look out the window and decide if it's going to be a good weather or bad weather tip for the pilots.

On another issue, I have a difference of opinion. Snake said, "Again, it doesn't matter to ANY OWNER at Nutjets how much we are paid...AND IT SHOULDN'T!"

I strongly disagree, for several reasons. The company has been lying to the owners by telling them that they had to raise prices to cover pilot salary increases, which the pilots did NOT receive. Wages are directly tied to the level of experience which the company will be able to attract and retain among its pilot force. Lack of experience has historically been linked to accidents. Pilots on strike for higher wages and a better contract WOULD impact the owners. Any sign of mismanagement, labor problems included, should be a concern to anyone with a financial investment in the company, including a share of an airplane. Then there is the question of basic fairness--do the owners think that it is right that their pilot is paid less than their limo driver? Will the wealthy be embarrassed if it becomes public knowledge that some of their pilots are receiving government assistance? Will the famous owners' reputations be tarnished when it comes out that many of their pilots are paid less than bus drivers and garbage collectors, just to name a few? If none of the above reasons matter to the owners, then the one mentioned in Live4flying's post definitely should. He advised the owners to ask if the flightcrew was well rested. We all know that the payscale is not the only part of a contract. The owners have a vested interest in the work rules that govern the conditions under which their pilots are working. They have every right to expect a rested, alert crew, rather than one that is fighting fatigue and has been grabbing nourishment when they could. 14 hour days and missed meals are not conducive to safety--that fact alone SHOULD concern the owners.

 

[Live4flyng]

Some Guy

I can tell you that I would have absolutely no problems putting myself or my family on any QS tail number.

After reading my post again, I realize it may have come off as Netjets is flying unsafe airplanes due to a lack of maintenance. That is NOT what I meant. I would have no problems putting anyone I know in the back of a QS airplane either, I know the crews would refuse to fly a broken airplane and ensure my safety. The point I was trying to make is, Netjets is claiming poverty and trying to cut costs everywhere they can. I would be concerned as an owner if everytime I climbed on an airplane the phone, CD player, seats, lights, toilet etc.....was deferred.

 

[Indigo]

Tips and other things

While I tend to agree with Snake's opinion that owners don't know or care what the pilots make, another part of me says that they would want the pilots to be paid fairly, whatever that is.

Think of people you know that provide a service to you. Do you have a favorite waiter or waitress? Do you hope they're being paid fairly? Do you give them bigger tips if they provide you with good service? Are the tips bigger if you think they need it?

I know some people might be upset with the waiter/waitress analogy but we are in the service business. I am a air-limo driver too, although I don't work for a fractional. And although I think it's a good thing to take your job seriously, some people take THEMSELVES too seriously.

Good luck to the Netjets pilots in their contract fight. A rising tide lifts all boats.

 

[netjetwife]

While I tend to agree with Snake's opinion that owners don't know or care what the pilots make, another part of me says that they would want the pilots to be paid fairly, whatever that is.
Good luck to the Netjets pilots in their contract fight. A rising tide lifts all boats.

Indigo, rather than restate my reasons why the owners should care about our CONTRACT--again, guys, it's more than the money--I'll refer you to my earlier post on the subject. I do so like your quote, though! Mind if I start using it? A rising tide lifts all boats. It conveys the point I keep making, with a lot less typing... Speaking of tides.... I do believe the tide is turning in our favor. There has been more positive support and constructive debate lately. Or is that because I put a certain toad on my Ignore List?...LOL

I was a waitress during my student days; your analogy doesn't bother me, and I'm certain my husband feels the same. He says receiving tips has made him even more aware of how those working for tips feel. It's not only money, it's recognition for your efforts, as well.
LB/NJW

 

[netjetwife]

It's a matter of won't not can't!

Live4flying, I don't buy the poverty bit--none of us should. Not when the company can pay cash for a hanger. Sounds like it's an allocation problem to me. Mismanaging funds is NOT the same as lacking the funds. If you buy a large brand new house and fill it w/worn furniture, can you tell the neighbors you're broke just because your furnishings aren't top of the line? How can a company that has been able to expand rapidly NOT be able to afford the cost of a professional pilot force? Obviously, the pilots' salaries have not been a high priority for NJA. It is up to all of us to change their minds! VOTE NO...No more building the business on the backs of the pilots, and the comfort/convenience of the owners.

Ironically enough, something that I'm always "preaching" to my kids can be applied to big businesses. They, too, must learn to take care of what they have if they expect to get something new. Pay the pilots an NBAA average-better salary, stop deferring mx on non-safety items, and THEN expand the business.
LB/NJW

 

[NJAowner]

NJA vs Others

Beytzim

Last year when it was my time to renew my contract with NJA, I looked around again. WHat did I see ??

While NJA may be the most expensive frac out there, it is not by much.

F.O. Comparing new aircraft to FO, apples to apples, acquisition costs are the same and monthy fess are within $100-200 per month per 1/8th (I studied this last year do not have this year's FO numbers. Negligible difference. I fly from the Northeast to the Rockies several times per yer (not Aspen or Vail, a small out of the way place). Twice NJA has had problems with a plane. The first time I had a back-up (C-X) within 1 hour of my sheduled departure. The second time I got a EJM Falcon 900 from a corporate fleet. I was there once with a collegaue who is with FO, and we waited 4 hours. He has had this several times. WHile this may not be a problem for FO in the NE, it is in the out of the way Rockies.

CS. Nice outfit - liked them. But not enough depth in the system to go to the ROckies often and sometimes I need something larger than the Excel. If I only wnet NE to Fla and back, it would be an option.

FX. Requires you to buy a share in a new plane after 5 years (I believe they just changed this). With NJA, if your plane type is still in the fleet, you just renew at the new MMF rates. No need to buy a new plane. On an Excel, this could be $200K-$300K extra every 5 years (I know FX doesn't have Excels - no one flame me please).

Just my 2 cents and much more $$ in analysis.

Fly Safe.

P.S. You say: "In those financials, the company is barely afloat. It's a miracle in itself that we have survived this long, let alone another 5 years. According to Boisture, we have much cost cutting to do. This, of course, will invariably directly affect your service." BZ, you seem like a smart guy. Have you ever heard of a company in the midst of serious labor neotiations with its largest union saying --- "We are making so much $$ we have no idea what to do with it. Our shareholders have said their returns have more than been exceeded. We can't pay top management any more nor can we make any acquistions or expansions. Therefore, we must pay it to the union employees". I have never seen a large company in heated labor negotiations paint a picture that is not gloomy.

 

[netjetwife]

Thanks owner

I'll be quoting you over on the netjetwives message/support board. We have a few wifes that are being duped by all the company's doom and gloom talk.

Jeff is assigned to Centennial/Denver and flies in the Rockies quite a bit. Which airport do you fly into? He says that Telluride can be very difficult esp, in the winter. He had to land there on an icy runway with a strong cross wind. After safely landing the plane, he turned to the Captain and told him that he wasn't being paid enough for landings like that. That was pilot-speak for saying it had been scary. I know that some of the pilots are against tipping, and I'm NOT asking for tips for my husband. I simply want to say that compliments are appreciated by every worker that gives the job 100%. Flying in the mountains is more difficult/dangerous, and I'm sure the flightcrew would enjoy knowing that their skill did not go unnoticed.
LB/NJW

 

[lawfly]

Tips/Gratuities; FAR 91 Subpart K & 14 hour duty days

These NJ boards have been a revelation on various levels. I'm on the sidelines, for sure, in all of this. In years past, I did work a few low-paying aviation jobs, though. The tipping comments are somewhat at odds with the repeated refrain that "pilots are professionals and should be paid accordingly". One likely comeback is that the low pay necessitates the talk of tipping, but, to an outsider who did at one time fly people from point A to point B, I don't think asking, hinting, suggesting, or mentioning "tips" or "tipping" is the way to go. It just doesn't quite match up with the "we're professionals" argument. To some, it could be construed as conceding the description of highly trained "driver" (think, too, of other areas where tipping is common: waiters, bellboys, cabbies, etc.)
Contracts aside, I was wondering if there was any "comment" prior to the enactment of FAR 91, Subpart K, which does allow for 14 hour duty days. Of course, a contract is one way to deal with it, but if it truly is a safety issue (and it probably is), was any effort made at the "notice and comment" level? Is any effort being made now at the regulatory level? It does sound like a tough gig when you're pulling frequent 14 hour duty days and $28k gross pay. And those Columbus bus drivers have a pretty good deal, if the posts are accurate. Do they have a heads up display in those things? Enhanced vision or something? Hope it all works out adequately for all concerned, all things considered.

 

[NJAowner]

Clarification

Please let me clarify a previous post. I am not saying that NJA is full of so much cash it does not know what to do with it. Just take the gloom and doom in context of the situation in which it is used. That was just a sarcastic illustration. I will say that I (and many others) do have enough confidence in the long term viability of NetJets to put our money into the program. Actions speak louder than words.

Fly safe.

 

[Some guy]

I agree with NJA owner...Long term I believe that NJ will be fine. Several thousand owners putting their money into the program tells me that we will be in business for quite a while. As far as I know, the very few that have left to try other options...Most have returned.

 

[FracCapt]

There are some factors the owners can consider in setting the amount: Size of party; extra welcome/attention shown to a child; number of bags; amount of catering served; extra flights/legs by the same owner; and service above and beyond duty, such as calling ahead to arrange ground transportation.

You are seriously degrading the pilots by posting this crap. Tell your "husband" to go work as a waiter if he expects tips for DOING HIS JOB!

Additionally, the degree of flying difficulty should be reflected in the tip. Flying in bad weather and/or landing on challenging runways, like those seen in the mountains, would suggest a larger tip/recognition of the effort expended by the flightcrew.

My husband has flown through very bad weather and made some extremely difficult landings that caused him to draw upon his 20 years of experience gained in military flying.

Wow. Let me say that I am IMPRESSED. It sounds like he does SO MUCH MORE than every other fractional and corporate pilot in the world! Give me a break.

I don't disagree that Netjets pilots are severely underpaid....he!!, I think that ALL fractional pilots are severely underpaid! You need to give up on this stupid tip campaign of yours before you degrade the profession even more. B!tch all you want about low pay...but don't bring this crap into it.

 

[FracCapt]

Jeff is assigned to Centennial/Denver and flies in the Rockies quite a bit. Which airport do you fly into? He says that Telluride can be very difficult esp, in the winter. He had to land there on an icy runway with a strong cross wind.

Hmmmm....let's think about this for a minute....KTEX....9,078 field elevation....icy runway...6800x100ft runway....

Yep, sounds pretty stupid to me.

 

[lawfly]

More On Tips/Gratuities

I don't mean to beat up on anyone, but on the tipping thing: I mentioned waiters, bellboys, cabbies. Forgot to mention barber/hairstylist, valet parking person. Wouldn't it be something if the practice really took off to the point where the FedEx or other cargo guys who now say "Packages don't complain", etc., started to say, "Hey, I want out of this gig. Packages don't tip." Or, in training, the instructors can say, "Okay. Let me show you a technique that guarantees a big tip every time."
There are some books out there on tipping, etiquette and such. I wonder if "pilots" are in there yet. I know I'm having some fun with this, but I still say it was un-cool to interject it so openly and so broadly into things. A pilot's alleged wife counselling an owner online about tipping the pilots. Hey, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with discreet, unsolicited gratuities at the donor's option. (I think wedding participants tip whoever pronounces? Can't stop thinking now of all the situations where tipping is customary in our society.) Okay, checking out. Do those Cleveland (or was it Columbus) buses at least have GPS?

 

[netjetwife]

NetJetWife - I have covered the tips dicussion on the board several times in the past. But, I am flying next week and may try to get some feedback on this with a trial balloon. Please help me and I may try it.

How much do I tip the Capt and F.O.? Should I give the Capt. more? $50 each, $100 each?? 15% of the cost of my hourly fee for the flight (this I will not agree to)? 18% if I have a party of 6 or more on the flight? 15% of the onboard catering bill?

I am not being sarcastic. What do you expect your husband to receive as a tip and what would you (or he) consider insulting?

Thanks.

(Please tell him to ) Fly safe.

Frac Capt, perhaps you missed this post to which I have been replying? The owner and I were responding directly to one another, but since you DO INSIST on being a part of the discussion, we need to get some of the facts straight. Neither I nor my husband, have EVER asked/hinted for him to be tipped. However, he HAS received tips on numerous occassions, and THAT is what prompted the conversation to begin with. There is a very good reason that it is considered bad form to interrupt someone's conversation--you lack the neccessary background to join in, and come across misinformed as well as rude.

Who are YOU to tell an owner or passenger that they are not allowed to show their appreciation with a tip, if that is their wish ? My husband does not, AND NEVER HAS "expected" to be tipped. Each tip was given freely in recognition of service ABOVE AND BEYOND WHAT WAS MANDATED BY THE JOB. Perhaps your bitterness is motivated by jealousy? It doesn't sound as though you receive many tips. If you will notice, the supportive pilots in this debate have also been tipped by their passengers. They also came across much friendlier; there is a direct connection, I'm sure. How does a private transaction between two parties "degrade pilots"?

If you find being tipped beneath the dignity of a pilot, then certainly the role of bell hop/baggage handler, waiter/catering server, and janitor/plane cleaner would be subject to those same rules--off limits. Frac Capt, both you and Lawfly are missing the point. Salary and professional skill aside, an FO DOES perform personal SERVICES that are rewarded with a tip in polite society. Those tasks above are all done openly by the FO for the comfort and convenience of the owner/px. None of those services has anything to do with flying the plane. The owners that wish to tip, do so freely as a means of showing their appreciation for the special attention shown to them by the flightcrew that goes the extra mile to be helpful and friendly.

I find your attitude puzzling--what business is it of yours? The ONLY way that a pilot being offered a tip by his passenger could possibly demean himself and/or the profession would be by churlishly accepting, or (worse) rudely refusing what was freely and warmly offered in a sincere gesture.

 

[netjetwife]

Almost forgot--

Wow. Let me say that I am IMPRESSED. It sounds like he does SO MUCH MORE than every other fractional and corporate pilot in the world! Give me a break.

I don't disagree that Netjets pilots are severely underpaid....he!!, I think that ALL fractional pilots are severely underpaid! You need to give up on this stupid tip campaign of yours before you degrade the profession even more. B!tch all you want about low pay...but don't bring this crap into it.

In listing the FO's duties on the Excel, I stated ONLY what that pilot does. I have NEVER made a comparison to other pilots in other companies. I do not know what the others do, or do not do. I have, however, read posts that acknowledge that NJA pilots work very hard. I trust those pilots are qualified to make that observation. I have NEVER commented on the pay of other frac pilots, other than to urge them to take a stand against exploitation, if they feel that such is also their lot.

Ironically, Frac Capt, your condescending tone and sarcastic attitude have much more potential to give pilots a bad name than my honest answer to an owner's question. You are able to "degrade the profession" simply by posting; you need no help from me.

 

[netjetwife]

Contracts aside, I was wondering if there was any "comment" prior to the enactment of FAR 91, Subpart K, which does allow for 14 hour duty days. Of course, a contract is one way to deal with it, but if it truly is a safety issue (and it probably is), was any effort made at the "notice and comment" level? Is any effort being made now at the regulatory level? It does sound like a tough gig when you're pulling frequent 14 hour duty days and $28k gross pay. And those Columbus bus drivers have a pretty good deal, if the posts are accurate. Do they have a heads up display in those things? Enhanced vision or something? Hope it all works out adequately for all concerned, all things considered.

Sorry that I can't help you --I truly am a wife--but I'll ask my husband. We hope it works out too. If it doesn't, it won't be for lack of trying ,by a lot of the pilots and their wives. Many of us have put our lives "on hold" to fight this TA. Thanks for the kind words and support, Lawfly. It is appreciated.


Note: We exchanged support (you) and appreciation (me) in a sincere gesture. That is no different than an owner tipping a pilot, in a dignified one-on-one exchange. The money is the least of it; it is more about respect and manners. Those feelings are mutual and their expression in no way detracts from the professionalism of either person. Thanks for posting.
LaVonn

 

[doyouknowme]

Mr NJA Owner a Moment Please

Mr. NJA Owner,
Since I'm new here would you please extend me the courtesy of answering some of my questions?
What aircraft do you have an ownership in? After looking at all the options in Fractional Ownership, why did you choose to renew with NJA? What industry do you practice your trade? What experience do you bring to your trade? Are you fairly compensated for that experience?
Thank you for your time,
Doyouknowme

 

[netjetwife]

Poor kid lunch price---

Public elementary schools in Colorado---.40 cents, down from $1.80,
based on personal knowledge.

 

[beytzim]

NJAOwner, I was being fascitious. Warren Buffet is arguably the smartest business man of the 20th/21st centuries. After his dismal investment in USAir and his remarks stating that Orville and Wilbur Wright were the worst thing for capitalism (i.e. inventing the dreaded airplane - an inevitable sink hole and money pit) and later adding that he would never own his own jet - I believe Mr. Buffet has looked over NJA's business model quite thoroughly before investing in aviation again. Further, I believe that the model will continue to work and NJA will succeed.

However, NJA is making some poor decisions regarding labor relations. Santulli does not realize how angering pilots can directly affect NJA's customer service and efficiency.

I, personally, have begun looking elsewhere for employment. Others are too, and NJA will lose many valuable, experienced, and highly motivated pilots replaced with 2500 hour flight instructors.

Leave Nothing to Chance?

I leave that up to you.

 

[NJAowner]

Doyouknowme?

I don't know who you are so I don't know if I know you, but I will answer your questions. (Did you used to do American Express commercials?)


Mr. NJA Owner,
Since I'm new here would you please extend me the courtesy of answering some of my questions?
What aircraft do you have an ownership in? After looking at all the options in Fractional Ownership, why did you choose to renew with NJA? What industry do you practice your trade? What experience do you bring to your trade? Are you fairly compensated for that experience?
Thank you for your time,
Doyouknowme


1. I am in the Excel.
2. Why renew with NJA -- see prior posts. Briefly, better service, more depth in areas that are not serviced as often as other fracs, access to larger planes, better financial terms (all of these do not apply to every other operator).
3. I own and operate sveral business. Sorry, I do not want to get specific. They are all private companies.
4. Am I fairly compensated - as I have said before - just about everyone believes they should earn more. My compensation is based upon how my companies perform. If they make money, I make money. If they lose money, I make nothing. You could say my compensation is 100% performance driven based upon the bottom line. No pay for performance if I do a great job, increse market share, incvrease efficiencies, if the bottom line does not increase. Between bank loans and personal guaranties, there is a tremedous amount of risk and stress).

Fly safe.