What's the dumbest thing a crew has ever asked or requested?

[kack911]

Got dispatched a couple of days ago with just a little over dest+alt(same as depar)+45 mins. Got to the terminal area and the field had gone below mins. Hung around for 5 mins then returned to departure airport with a full load of pax. Had I been able to hang around for even 15 minutes, we would have made it in.

We sure pissed away alot of fuel and goodwill in the name of fuel savings.

Well you can thank upper management for that gem of "wisdom".

At my last 121 job, OCC management used to keep a spreadsheet of how much "extra" fuel we released with for the month. Then each dispatcher was ranked against his peers. The top "offenders" were called into the office to explain why they had put "so much fuel" on x or y flight.

Their spreadsheet didn't keep a record of destination TAFs, PIREPs, GDP's, or outbound taxi delays...just that we released with x amount above MinFuel.

You guys seem to think that we get off by telling pilots that they can't have any additional fuel...like we're the Fuel Nazi or something.

I've NEVER said "no" to a reasonable request for more go-juice. And I've only challenged a handful of the most ridiculous and flagrant attempts to violate company policy on coordinating changes in fuel uplift with the dispatcher PRIOR to effecting that change.

The Kack

 

[kack911]

I think maybe you pilots need to spend a little bit more time "jumpseating" in dispatch when there's a major weather system affecting the hub.

Now, I'm not one to downplay the amount of skill and coordination it takes to hand-fly a raw data ILS down to mins with a 20kt crosswind, and not run off the end of the 6,000ft ice-covered runway, but...

You guys seem to think that we just sit around "in our nice warm office" and jerk eachother off, while we leave you out there to fend for yourselves.

Go ahead, raise your hand if that's how you feel...we're all friends here.

What you are failing to consider, is that we're simultaneously flight following 18 or more flights spread all over the country, flight planning the next batch 18, answering non-stop phone calls from outstations and pilots on 3 seperate lines, answering the VHF radios, answering hundreds of ACARS messages, coordinating diversions, calling ATC facilites, requesting RAMTAFs, calculating re-routes and fuel burns for airborne airplanes, coordinating with Mx Control for MEL issues, etc, etc,...

Accusing a dispatcher of negligence or stupidity because he misses an alternate or an FOM stipulation regarding landing fees for a -30 versus -50 is synonymous with accusing a pilot of negligence because he missed an item on the after takeoff flow because he was busy running the Engine Failure/Severe Damage QRH.

Let's not pretend you or someone you've flown with have never forgotten to switch from Approach to Tower and landed without clearance, missed a crossing restriction or busted an altitude, or missed a handoff with center and only realized it after you hear nothing but static for 30 minutes...

Pilots make just as many mistakes as we do. When pilots do it, they're just human. When Dispatchers do it, we're labeled as inept or "not to be trusted".

I hate double standards.

The Kack

The Kack

 

[ss9e]

We sure pissed away alot of fuel and goodwill in the name of fuel savings.

you're preaching to the choir dude. if it was up to us, we'd fill you up for every flight. diversions = more work for us too.

 

[ss9e]

I think maybe you pilots need to spend a little bit more time "jumpseating" in dispatch when there's a major weather system affecting the hub.

Now, I'm not one to downplay the amount of skill and coordination it takes to hand-fly a raw data ILS down to mins with a 20kt crosswind, and not run off the end of the 6,000ft ice-covered runway, but...

You guys seem to think that we just sit around "in our nice warm office" and jerk eachother off, while we leave you out there to fend for yourselves.

Go ahead, raise your hand if that's how you feel...we're all friends here.

What you are failing to consider, is that we're simultaneously flight following 18 or more flights spread all over the country, flight planning the next batch 18, answering non-stop phone calls from outstations and pilots on 3 seperate lines, answering the VHF radios, answering hundreds of ACARS messages, coordinating diversions, calling ATC facilites, requesting RAMTAFs, calculating re-routes and fuel burns for airborne airplanes, coordinating with Mx Control for MEL issues, etc, etc,...

Accusing a dispatcher of negligence or stupidity because he misses an alternate or an FOM stipulation regarding landing fees for a -30 versus -50 is synonymous with accusing a pilot of negligence because he missed an item on the after takeoff flow because he was busy running the Engine Failure/Severe Damage QRH.

Let's not pretend you or someone you've flown with have never forgotten to switch from Approach to Tower and landed without clearance, missed a crossing restriction or busted an altitude, or missed a handoff with center and only realized it after you hear nothing but static for 30 minutes...

Pilots make just as many mistakes as we do. When pilots do it, they're just human. When Dispatchers do it, we're labeled as inept or "not to be trusted".

I hate double standards.

The Kack

The Kack

amen brother.

 

[Occam's Razor]

You guys seem to think that we just sit around "in our nice warm office" and jerk each other off, while we leave you out there to fend for yourselves.

Not what I said. Not what I meant. I hope you find Moby, Ahab.

What you are failing to consider, is that we're simultaneously flight following 18 or more flights spread all over the country, flight planning the next batch 18, answering non-stop phone calls from outstations and pilots on 3 seperate lines, answering the VHF radios, answering hundreds of ACARS messages, coordinating diversions, calling ATC facilites, requesting RAMTAFs, calculating re-routes and fuel burns for airborne airplanes, coordinating with Mx Control for MEL issues, etc, etc,...

You left out: "...in continuous Moderate!"

No one is questioning the workload or stress that comes with the job. The "big picture" is more like Bigfoot to most pilots; we've heard about it, but we've never really seen it. We do the stick monkey gig and take the blame when something goes wrong...or worse, pay the price for a big mistake (or an uninerrupted series of small ones).

Accusing a dispatcher of negligence or stupidity because he misses an alternate or an FOM stipulation regarding landing fees for a -30 versus -50 is synonymous with accusing a pilot of negligence because he missed an item on the after takeoff flow because he was busy running the Engine Failure/Severe Damage QRH.

Agree. My comments were directed to SKC, who seems to think "gotcha!" is funny. My exact quote was: "Apparently, pilots and dispatchers are humans, and occasionally make mistakes. It's nice to have the other guy looking out for you."

Let's not pretend you or someone you've flown with have never forgotten to switch from Approach to Tower and landed without clearance, missed a crossing restriction or busted an altitude, or missed a handoff with center and only realized it after you hear nothing but static for 30 minutes...

Ha! My F/O's carry a folder full of pre-printed NASA forms when they see my name on the crew list! My goal is to reduce my AEPL (" average errors per leg") to less than 3.

Pilots make just as many mistakes as we do. When pilots do it, they're just human. When Dispatchers do it, we're labeled as inept or "not to be trusted".

I hate double standards.

Ok, now we have something to clarify. If the business of airline flying was a ham and eggs breakfast, the dispatcher and pilot are like the chicken and the pig. The dispatcher is the chicken, cuz he's invested. The pilot is the pig cuz he's committed! His butt is on the plate.

Perhaps that is the "double standard"?

Blue ceilings!

 

[flyjumpseat]

Got dispatched a couple of days ago with just a little over dest+alt(same as depar)+45 mins. Got to the terminal area and the field had gone below mins. Hung around for 5 mins then returned to departure airport with a full load of pax. Had I been able to hang around for even 15 minutes, we would have made it in.

We sure pissed away alot of fuel and goodwill in the name of fuel savings.

Sooooo..... you had 45 minutes extra fuel and didn't hang around for more than 5? What you just said, says you had 30 mins of fuel more than you needed.

I don't know the whole situation (departure weather, destination weather, enroute issues, etc). But with the info you provided.... Don't know.

Lots of issues you guys/gals in the air have to think about. We think about lots of them also and I'll always try to provide you the best info available to me.

If anyone has a problem with the product I provide then pick up a phone. I see something you don't... you see something I don't... we fix the problem. Flight departs on time, arrives on time, passengers are happy, we all get big bonus checks.

 

[SSDD]

Remember, the 45 min reserve is calculated at the "cruise" fuel flow, measured at the TOD. That is not a real 45 min fuel burn!!!!!!!! After the vectoring we landed with about 25 mins of "realistic" fuel.

BTW nowhere in my post did I slam the dispatcher. We are all dealing with management's shortsightness.

 

[homerjdispatch]

Remember, the 45 min reserve is calculated at the "cruise" fuel flow, measured at the TOD. That is not a real 45 min fuel burn!!!!!!!! After the vectoring we landed with about 25 mins of "realistic" fuel.

BTW nowhere in my post did I slam the dispatcher. We are all dealing with management's shortsightness.

Just some food for thought....45 min reserve at cruise is a lot more fuel than 45 minutes at 15000 ft in a holding configuration (for the CRJ's). In fact, 45 min reserve on a flight filed at FL 320 equates to over an hour of fuel in the hold pattern at 15000 FT. Check out the fuel flows some time...it may surprise you.

 

[SSDD]

Forget it. Its almost Christmas.

 

[kack911]

No one is questioning the workload or stress that comes with the job. The "big picture" is more like Bigfoot to most pilots; we've heard about it, but we've never really seen it. We do the stick monkey gig and take the blame when something goes wrong...or worse, pay the price for a big mistake (or an uninerrupted series of small ones).

Thats why I encourage you, and every other pilot to come in to dispatch and sit there with us while we get our asses kicked on a crappy weather day. Obviously, I'm required to jumpseat with you, and when I do, I make it a point to fly through the busiest hub and to the station with the worst weather I can find...and back again. Its true.

I want the crews to know that I understand their workload, and that I (we) are there to give them help when they need it. I can't count how many times I've seen a crew with both heads inside the cockpit as we drive through terminal airspace at 250kt doing something that dispatch could have been doing for them. Like sending an ACARS datalink weather request for their alternate, or figuring out the landing distance correction factor for a Flaps 20 approach with one pair of ground spoilers inop...

All too often, the only time I see a pilot's face in the OCC, its because he came over to flirt with one of the (s)crew schedulers who sounded cute on the phone.

Agree. My comments were directed to SKC, who seems to think "gotcha!" is funny. My exact quote was: "Apparently, pilots and dispatchers are humans, and occasionally make mistakes. It's nice to have the other guy looking out for you."

Fair enough. But the quote I read said "The thing I learned that night was never to trust a dispatcher."

Ha! My F/O's carry a folder full of pre-printed NASA forms when they see my name on the crew list! My goal is to reduce my AEPL (" average errors per leg") to less than 3.

At my last job, dispatchers were not allowed to participate in the ASAP program, thus the NASA/ASRS was our only way of covering our ass...not that it would do much good.

Ok, now we have something to clarify. If the business of airline flying was a ham and eggs breakfast, the dispatcher and pilot are like the chicken and the pig. The dispatcher is the chicken, cuz he's invested. The pilot is the pig cuz he's committed! His butt is on the plate.

Perhaps that is the "double standard"?

Blue ceilings!

I agree to a point but in the end, no, I disagree. Dispatchers are jointly responsible for the operation of each and every flight. Yes, you will be the first guy at the scene, no doubt. But we are just as liable and and just as vulnerable to enforcement action as you are.

Several years ago, a couple of pax sued the airline because they were injured during an encounter with unforecast severe turbulence. Do you know which parties were named in the lawsuit?

The PIC and the dispatcher.

The Kack

 

[152SIC]

So...let me see of I understand you correctly:

In a thread where all of the pilots are busy telling us dispatchers how stupid we are, and how often we tell them to do stupid/illegal things - you actually want to tell me that its SMART to fly into embedded level 5 convective activity without a radar...because its ONLY 18 miles away?

No, I did not say through the storms. I said underneath them, on a short trip.

BTW, I don't think only dispatchers are stupid; anyone involved in aviation as a career is!

 

[Occam's Razor]

Thats why I encourage you, and every other pilot to come in to dispatch and sit there with us while we get our asses kicked on a crappy weather day. I want the crews to know that I understand their workload, and that I (we) are there to give them help when they need it.

Sounds like fun! I'll get over there right after I lug bags through the snow with the baggage handlers...so I can see what THAT'S like! <--that's a joke.

I can't count how many times I've seen a crew with both heads inside the cockpit as we drive through terminal airspace at 250kt doing something that dispatch could have been doing for them. Like sending an ACARS datalink weather request for their alternate, or figuring out the landing distance correction factor for a Flaps 20 approach with one pair of ground spoilers inop...

The ol' Workload Paradox! When you need help the most, so does everyone else...so it's tough to get.

All too often, the only time I see a pilot's face in the OCC, its because he came over to flirt with one of the (s)crew schedulers who sounded cute on the phone.

Geez! Ours sound like that clerk from the old TV "Night Court" Thelma.

Fair enough. But the quote I read said "The thing I learned that night was never to trust a dispatcher."

Dang right! NEVER trust them! Never trust the other pilot either. When I get a checklist response, I look at the switch too. In fact, I don't even trust myself. I use checklists for everything! (My wife appreciates the thoughtfulness of my bedstand "Before Start" checklist)

 

[405]

What I learned that evening as a new captain was that it is seldom a good idea to trust a dispatcher.

Did you know the -50 wasn't authorized for HPN before you pushed from the departure gate?

 

[kack911]

...I use checklists for everything! (My wife appreciates the thoughtfulness of my bedstand "Before Start" checklist)

If HOT icon appears..................Throttle, Cutoff.
(Continue to dry motor until duty cycle limit.)

Geez, I crack myself up!

"There's two O's in Goose boys..."

The Kack

 

[Occam's Razor]

Did you know the -50 wasn't authorized for HPN before you pushed from the departure gate?

Nope. That's one of those "operational planning" thingys I'm not supposed to know. When I retire I understand they'll give me a Limited Edition lithograph of the Big Picture. Until then, I review the release, the NOTAMs, FICONs, Wx, and logbooks. Then, if the fuel numbers and route look cool, I slip the surly bonds with confidence, secure in the knowledge that Dispatch has the original oil-on-canvas Big Picture hanging over their crt.

A little note in the "Arrivals" section of our airline-specific 10-7 Jepp page mentions which direction to park at the gate, and that a/c larger than -30's are verboten.

Silly new captain! I thought the Operational Planning folks would never send an aircraft where it wasn't supposed to go.

Gotcha!

Had they tried to send my DC-9 to LGW or HKG, I like to think I'd have noticed. But since we do, in fact, fly DC-9's in and out of HPN daily, it didn't seem that unusual to me. I'm not responsible for which type of airplane Dispatch tells me to fly, I simply did my part of the job: Notified them there might be a problem as soon as I read the "where to park" note, then flew my aircraft and passengers safely to LGA. I even greased the landing!

If it was some sort of prank that Dispatch likes to pull on new captains...then I guess the joke's on me! I thought "trick questions" were for History mid-terms, Jeopardy! and the SAT's.