What's the dumbest thing a crew has ever asked or requested?

[flyjumpseat]

Got dispatched a couple of days ago with just a little over dest+alt(same as depar)+45 mins. Got to the terminal area and the field had gone below mins. Hung around for 5 mins then returned to departure airport with a full load of pax. Had I been able to hang around for even 15 minutes, we would have made it in.

We sure pissed away alot of fuel and goodwill in the name of fuel savings.

Sooooo..... you had 45 minutes extra fuel and didn't hang around for more than 5? What you just said, says you had 30 mins of fuel more than you needed.

I don't know the whole situation (departure weather, destination weather, enroute issues, etc). But with the info you provided.... Don't know.

Lots of issues you guys/gals in the air have to think about. We think about lots of them also and I'll always try to provide you the best info available to me.

If anyone has a problem with the product I provide then pick up a phone. I see something you don't... you see something I don't... we fix the problem. Flight departs on time, arrives on time, passengers are happy, we all get big bonus checks.

 

[SSDD]

Remember, the 45 min reserve is calculated at the "cruise" fuel flow, measured at the TOD. That is not a real 45 min fuel burn!!!!!!!! After the vectoring we landed with about 25 mins of "realistic" fuel.

BTW nowhere in my post did I slam the dispatcher. We are all dealing with management's shortsightness.

 

[homerjdispatch]

Remember, the 45 min reserve is calculated at the "cruise" fuel flow, measured at the TOD. That is not a real 45 min fuel burn!!!!!!!! After the vectoring we landed with about 25 mins of "realistic" fuel.

BTW nowhere in my post did I slam the dispatcher. We are all dealing with management's shortsightness.

Just some food for thought....45 min reserve at cruise is a lot more fuel than 45 minutes at 15000 ft in a holding configuration (for the CRJ's). In fact, 45 min reserve on a flight filed at FL 320 equates to over an hour of fuel in the hold pattern at 15000 FT. Check out the fuel flows some time...it may surprise you.

 

[SSDD]

Forget it. Its almost Christmas.

 

[kack911]

No one is questioning the workload or stress that comes with the job. The "big picture" is more like Bigfoot to most pilots; we've heard about it, but we've never really seen it. We do the stick monkey gig and take the blame when something goes wrong...or worse, pay the price for a big mistake (or an uninerrupted series of small ones).

Thats why I encourage you, and every other pilot to come in to dispatch and sit there with us while we get our asses kicked on a crappy weather day. Obviously, I'm required to jumpseat with you, and when I do, I make it a point to fly through the busiest hub and to the station with the worst weather I can find...and back again. Its true.

I want the crews to know that I understand their workload, and that I (we) are there to give them help when they need it. I can't count how many times I've seen a crew with both heads inside the cockpit as we drive through terminal airspace at 250kt doing something that dispatch could have been doing for them. Like sending an ACARS datalink weather request for their alternate, or figuring out the landing distance correction factor for a Flaps 20 approach with one pair of ground spoilers inop...

All too often, the only time I see a pilot's face in the OCC, its because he came over to flirt with one of the (s)crew schedulers who sounded cute on the phone.

Agree. My comments were directed to SKC, who seems to think "gotcha!" is funny. My exact quote was: "Apparently, pilots and dispatchers are humans, and occasionally make mistakes. It's nice to have the other guy looking out for you."

Fair enough. But the quote I read said "The thing I learned that night was never to trust a dispatcher."

Ha! My F/O's carry a folder full of pre-printed NASA forms when they see my name on the crew list! My goal is to reduce my AEPL (" average errors per leg") to less than 3.

At my last job, dispatchers were not allowed to participate in the ASAP program, thus the NASA/ASRS was our only way of covering our ass...not that it would do much good.

Ok, now we have something to clarify. If the business of airline flying was a ham and eggs breakfast, the dispatcher and pilot are like the chicken and the pig. The dispatcher is the chicken, cuz he's invested. The pilot is the pig cuz he's committed! His butt is on the plate.

Perhaps that is the "double standard"?

Blue ceilings!

I agree to a point but in the end, no, I disagree. Dispatchers are jointly responsible for the operation of each and every flight. Yes, you will be the first guy at the scene, no doubt. But we are just as liable and and just as vulnerable to enforcement action as you are.

Several years ago, a couple of pax sued the airline because they were injured during an encounter with unforecast severe turbulence. Do you know which parties were named in the lawsuit?

The PIC and the dispatcher.

The Kack

 

[152SIC]

So...let me see of I understand you correctly:

In a thread where all of the pilots are busy telling us dispatchers how stupid we are, and how often we tell them to do stupid/illegal things - you actually want to tell me that its SMART to fly into embedded level 5 convective activity without a radar...because its ONLY 18 miles away?

No, I did not say through the storms. I said underneath them, on a short trip.

BTW, I don't think only dispatchers are stupid; anyone involved in aviation as a career is!

 

[Occam's Razor]

Thats why I encourage you, and every other pilot to come in to dispatch and sit there with us while we get our asses kicked on a crappy weather day. I want the crews to know that I understand their workload, and that I (we) are there to give them help when they need it.

Sounds like fun! I'll get over there right after I lug bags through the snow with the baggage handlers...so I can see what THAT'S like! <--that's a joke.

I can't count how many times I've seen a crew with both heads inside the cockpit as we drive through terminal airspace at 250kt doing something that dispatch could have been doing for them. Like sending an ACARS datalink weather request for their alternate, or figuring out the landing distance correction factor for a Flaps 20 approach with one pair of ground spoilers inop...

The ol' Workload Paradox! When you need help the most, so does everyone else...so it's tough to get.

All too often, the only time I see a pilot's face in the OCC, its because he came over to flirt with one of the (s)crew schedulers who sounded cute on the phone.

Geez! Ours sound like that clerk from the old TV "Night Court" Thelma.

Fair enough. But the quote I read said "The thing I learned that night was never to trust a dispatcher."

Dang right! NEVER trust them! Never trust the other pilot either. When I get a checklist response, I look at the switch too. In fact, I don't even trust myself. I use checklists for everything! (My wife appreciates the thoughtfulness of my bedstand "Before Start" checklist)

 

[405]

What I learned that evening as a new captain was that it is seldom a good idea to trust a dispatcher.

Did you know the -50 wasn't authorized for HPN before you pushed from the departure gate?

 

[kack911]

...I use checklists for everything! (My wife appreciates the thoughtfulness of my bedstand "Before Start" checklist)

If HOT icon appears..................Throttle, Cutoff.
(Continue to dry motor until duty cycle limit.)

Geez, I crack myself up!

"There's two O's in Goose boys..."

The Kack

 

[Occam's Razor]

Did you know the -50 wasn't authorized for HPN before you pushed from the departure gate?

Nope. That's one of those "operational planning" thingys I'm not supposed to know. When I retire I understand they'll give me a Limited Edition lithograph of the Big Picture. Until then, I review the release, the NOTAMs, FICONs, Wx, and logbooks. Then, if the fuel numbers and route look cool, I slip the surly bonds with confidence, secure in the knowledge that Dispatch has the original oil-on-canvas Big Picture hanging over their crt.

A little note in the "Arrivals" section of our airline-specific 10-7 Jepp page mentions which direction to park at the gate, and that a/c larger than -30's are verboten.

Silly new captain! I thought the Operational Planning folks would never send an aircraft where it wasn't supposed to go.

Gotcha!

Had they tried to send my DC-9 to LGW or HKG, I like to think I'd have noticed. But since we do, in fact, fly DC-9's in and out of HPN daily, it didn't seem that unusual to me. I'm not responsible for which type of airplane Dispatch tells me to fly, I simply did my part of the job: Notified them there might be a problem as soon as I read the "where to park" note, then flew my aircraft and passengers safely to LGA. I even greased the landing!

If it was some sort of prank that Dispatch likes to pull on new captains...then I guess the joke's on me! I thought "trick questions" were for History mid-terms, Jeopardy! and the SAT's.

 

[405]

Nope. That's one of those "operational planning" thingys I'm not supposed to know. When I retire I understand they'll give me a Limited Edition lithograph of the Big Picture. Until then, I review the release, the NOTAMs, FICONs, Wx, and logbooks. Then, if the fuel numbers and route look cool, I slip the surly bonds with confidence, secure in the knowledge that Dispatch has the original oil-on-canvas Big Picture hanging over their crt.

A little note in the "Arrivals" section of our airline-specific 10-7 Jepp page mentions which direction to park at the gate, and that a/c larger than -30's are verboten.

Silly new captain! I thought the Operational Planning folks would never send an aircraft where it wasn't supposed to go.

Gotcha!

Had they tried to send my DC-9 to LGW or HKG, I like to think I'd have noticed. But since we do, in fact, fly DC-9's in and out of HPN daily, it didn't seem that unusual to me. I'm not responsible for which type of airplane Dispatch tells me to fly, I simply did my part of the job: Notified them there might be a problem as soon as I read the "where to park" note, then flew my aircraft and passengers safely to LGA. I even greased the landing!

If it was some sort of prank that Dispatch likes to pull on new captains...then I guess the joke's on me! I thought "trick questions" were for History mid-terms, Jeopardy! and the SAT's.

You could've prevented that diversion too by taking a quick peek at the Jepp 10-7's for HPN before you left the gate. Oh wait, that's not your job. My fault. All of that responsibilty rests squarely on Dispatch.

Glad you greased the landing in LGA. I'm sure the pax were impressed.

 

[Occam's Razor]

You could've prevented that diversion too by taking a quick peek at the Jepp 10-7's for HPN before you left the gate. Oh wait, that's not your job. My fault. All of that responsibilty rests squarely on Dispatch.

Ok, I'll agree. Now please list the things I need to double-check because dispatchers can't be trusted. Make the list as comprehensive as possible. And of course, don't forget "The right size aircraft".

(sheesh)

Perhaps there should be a disclaimer printed at the bottom of each release:

This work product may contain errors ranging from minor omissions to gross blunders. Your failure to catch them does not make me accountable for producing it.

Glad you greased the landing in LGA. I'm sure the pax were impressed.

Nah, I gave the dispatcher full credit. I told 'em the runway at HPN was kinda bumpy, but thankfully the dispatcher forced us to go to a runway I have mastered.

There's no "405" in "Team".

 

[405]

Ok, I'll agree. Now please list the things I need to double-check because dispatchers can't be trusted. Make the list as comprehensive as possible. And of course, don't forget "The right size aircraft".

(sheesh)

Perhaps there should be a disclaimer printed at the bottom of each release:

This work product may contain errors ranging from minor omissions to gross blunders. Your failure to catch them does not make me accountable for producing it.



Nah, I gave the dispatcher full credit. I told 'em the runway at HPN was kinda bumpy, but thankfully the dispatcher forced us to go to a runway I have mastered.

There's no "405" in "Team".

It's all my fault.

Merry Christmas.

 

[Occam's Razor]

It's all my fault.

Not in that case specifically, but I agree with you in principle.

See? Peace on Earth!

Merry Christmas!

 

[405]

Not in that case specifically, but I agree with you in principle.

See? Peace on Earth!

Merry Christmas!

Razor, if you have that little trust in dispatchers, maybe you need to go fly crop dusters.

Unfortnately, 3% (my estimate) of our pilots are like you at my airline and we ALL know their names. They don't trust us and we sure don't trust them. Thankfully, the other 97% are true professional aviators. That means if they have a problem, they call us and together we (that means dispatcher and pilot) communicate effectively to resolve an issue. Your concept of "don't trust dispatch" doesn't belong in Part 121 operations in my opinion.

I would have a real problem putting my family on a plane you were commanding.

 

[propsarebest]

That same 3% are the same group of guys that have the COMMAND complex, the world revolves around them. I think because they have small pee pee's, they seem to take it out on everyone else. Have fun driving your Miata home.

 

[RJAA]

Oh come on, let's be fair on this one. We all would like to think that 100% of dispatchers conduct their jobs professionally and do the job to the best of their ability but speaking from my experience working for two companies, it isn't always so. Some don't really communicate well, some would say they don't care because it's legal and continue to tap tap send and play Zuma all night and we all have taken turnovers that aren't up our own individual standards at some point in our careers. We all know who they are in the office. When a dispatcher pull something shady or say something irresponsible, the pilots will also remember you. However, if you pay attention to details and do it in a smart way, they usually don't call even on a stormy day, or if they call, usually they are courteous. Your name on the release is your reputation. If they think that you are worthless because of what happened two months ago and decided not to call to use your resources to avoid the hassle, how good is that? The point I am trying to make is it goes both ways.

 

[405]

RJAA, it does go both ways and I agree with you 100%. There's bad dispatchers out there too. There's also a percentage of dispatchers out there who don't have the experience, don't care about the job, or just do what they need to do to get a paycheck. It's unfortunate but that's the way it is at most airlines now. Blame your management. Pay is garbage and benefits are worse. I will go on the record and say that the dispatchers I work with care about the job that they do and want to do the best job possible.

Razor is at a Major though. If he has issues with his dispatchers after 11 years after one snafu, WHICH HE COULD'VE PREVENTED ALSO (sorry, you dropped the ball too, Razor), he needs to move on to something a little less strenuous.

 

[Occam's Razor]

RJAA, it does go both ways and I agree with you 100%. There's bad dispatchers out there too.

Wow! Really?

You mean I might actually have a point, and I might have run into one of those "bad dispatchers" you mention?

There's also a percentage of dispatchers out there who don't have the experience, don't care about the job, or just do what they need to do to get a paycheck. It's unfortunate but that's the way it is at most airlines now. Blame your management.

Huh? You blamed me! You think I have a chip on my shoulder, or a "thing" against dispatchers. Which is it? Was it one of your bad dispatchers...or totally my fault?

Is it possible I am a professional, and you are forming an incorrect opinion on my professionalism based on a single anecdote posted on a Forum?

Nah! You don't like my attitude, so I must be a jerk.

Razor is at a Major though. If he has issues with his dispatchers after 11 years after one snafu, WHICH HE COULD'VE PREVENTED ALSO (sorry, you dropped the ball too, Razor), he needs to move on to something a little less strenuous.

I don't have "issues" with our dispatchers. I make it a habit to double-check as much as possible on each release. This guy on flightinfo said there are bad dispatchers out there and told me I should have caught this major boo boo on a release I got 11-years ago. Normally I'd trust all dispatchers, but ol' 405 says there's bad ones who need me to find their mistakes. (In an earlier post I asked him to tell me which areas I should check, and which I should trust 100% on every release...but he refused to respond to that...)

 

[Occam's Razor]

That same 3% are the same group of guys that have the COMMAND complex,

FAR 121.535 It's not just a good idea...it's the law.

[Note: I didn't write it]

the world revolves around them.

Ha! You've never been to my house. I'm the 6th most important carbon-based unit here. I'm lucky if the dog listens to me!

I think because they have small pee pee's,

Hey! You've been talking to my wife!

they seem to take it out on everyone else.

What...my pee pee?

Creepy!

Have fun driving your Miata home.

Nah. It's an old pick-up. And it'll be more fun to drive when I get around to fixing those u-joints up front.