"What's next now for AA/US possible merger'

[Metrojet]

Now that AA management has said they are returning to the table with the AA pilots and since US and AA are still in the NDA period - does anyone have any rumors or info on what they think is going to happen in the next 15-30 days - and do you think Horton is toast - and what if any part that Parker or Kirby or Isom played in this?

Metrojet

 

[General Lee]

Now that AA management has said they are returning to the table with the AA pilots and since US and AA are still in the NDA period - does anyone have any rumors or info on what they think is going to happen in the next 15-30 days - and do you think Horton is toast - and what if any part that Parker or Kirby or Isom played in this?

Metrojet

The NIC award will stand. That is next.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[captairbusbb]

The NIC award will stand. That is next.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Amen!!

 

[Flybywire44]

Now that AA management has said they are returning to the table with the AA pilots and since US and AA are still in the NDA period - does anyone have any rumors or info on what they think is going to happen in the next 15-30 days - and do you think Horton is toast - and what if any part that Parker or Kirby or Isom played in this?

Metrojet

Does the term sheet expire if the announcement is not made before October?

I'm assuming they announce a merger, progress towards JCBA begins, MOUs are voted in by APA/USAPA and then the seniority integration starts with a 24 month timeline.

Someone fill in the blanks.

 

[whymeworry?]

Horton is gone. AA and USAir will announce merger by the end of the year. The Nic award will stand. As it should have in the first place. Binding arbitration is just that, binding.

Delta will make a bid for Hawaiian in 2013, UAL will settle for Alaska (even though Hawaiin is a better fit), the new USAir/ AA entity will take JBlue.

SWA will continue its own path, Virgin, Spirit, and Frontier will either merge or all 3 will collapse on their own.

 

[Sherpa]

I don't see Spirit collapsing, they are killing it right now in their niche.

 

[BUDDHA145]

Horton is gone.

I just can imagine the size of that parachute!!!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Turtle21]

Now that AA management has said they are returning to the table with the AA pilots and since US and AA are still in the NDA period - does anyone have any rumors or info on what they think is going to happen in the next 15-30 days - and do you think Horton is toast - and what if any part that Parker or Kirby or Isom played in this?

Metrojet

Horton will take the parachute then write a book and do university lectures, crowing about how they played the employees for more spoils.

APA will still prove to be the only pilot group that has any testosterone left (ex. if you must put "General" in your screen name on a message board, ...uh, really?, On the other hand, if your handle is "Tiny", you ain't.)...

We will see another TWA style route, tempered slightly by Macaskill-Bond, as the LCC pilots are in chaotic disarray slashing at one another, but the APA pilots are skygods marching in perfect ranks, unafraid to march into fire.

The sun might not come up, but if it does you can sit in your lawn chair and watch. It will be a sight to behold!

 

[Bringupthebird]

I would bet you'll see a new MOU placed in front of the pilots that placates AA mgt for the slowdown paid for with reductions from the former US MOU. US pilots will howl but the USAPA BPR will just shrug their shoulders and eat shrimp at the bar on FPL after sending out a newsletter saying "see, you can't trust Parker".

The Ultra Slim Fast version of the MOU will still pass under pressure from APA to ensure Horton's departure path remains lubricated.

There will be a Pow-Wow between the APA and the BPR where they will be told to shut up and stay out of their way. Most will, but a few will screw things up for the majority, as they have done in the past.

The Tauruses will be donated to charity and a solemn letter from Hummel stating that USAPA is out of cash and will be absorbed into APA at that will be the end of the dumbest experiment in the history of organized labor. The Onion will feature an article about the Mike Cleary Center for Labor Studies. A few will chuckle through gritted teeth.

Doug Parker will go down in history as the man who gained all the benefits of neutering the pilot unions without ever having to touch a knife.

 

[bigtexpilot]

I would bet you'll see a new MOU placed in front of the pilots that placates AA mgt for the slowdown paid for with reductions from the former US MOU. US pilots will howl but the USAPA BPR will just shrug their shoulders and eat shrimp at the bar on FPL after sending out a newsletter saying "see, you can't trust Parker".

The Ultra Slim Fast version of the MOU will still pass under pressure from APA to ensure Horton's departure path remains lubricated.

There will be a Pow-Wow between the APA and the BPR where they will be told to shut up and stay out of their way. Most will, but a few will screw things up for the majority, as they have done in the past.

The Tauruses will be donated to charity and a solemn letter from Hummel stating that USAPA is out of cash and will be absorbed into APA at that will be the end of the dumbest experiment in the history of organized labor. The Onion will feature an article about the Mike Cleary Center for Labor Studies. A few will chuckle through gritted teeth.

Doug Parker will go down in history as the man who gained all the benefits of neutering the pilot unions without ever having to touch a knife.

What he said!

 

[cactusboy53]

...We will see another TWA style route, tempered slightly by Macaskill-Bond, as the LCC pilots are in chaotic disarray slashing at one another, but the APA pilots are skygods marching in perfect ranks, unafraid to march into fire....

The McCaskill/Bond mirrors ALPA merger policy. The ONLY way it could go a "TWA style route" is if BOTH parties agree to a seniority integration (SWA-AirTran). I don't see that happening (IMHO).

Otherwise it will go to a three panel arbitration board (per the conditions of the Term Sheet), and the delivered seniority list will (as if it had to be said again and again) be FINAL and BINDING.

There has been discussion about producing more than two lists (AA & LCC). With that being proffered to the three arbitrator panel: You have just asked them to consider two separate lists (sans a ruling from Judge Silver's court) from the LCC pilots (east & west). These arbitrators that are likely friends & perhaps mentees of Arbitrator Nicolau (the arbitrator that the former US Air pilots have publicly lambasted, debased and besmirched).

How do you suppose that's going to work out?

 

[Turtle21]

The McCaskill/Bond mirrors ALPA merger policy. The ONLY way it could go a "TWA style route" is if BOTH parties agree to a seniority integration (SWA-AirTran). I don't see that happening (IMHO).

Otherwise it will go to a three panel arbitration board (per the conditions of the Term Sheet), and the delivered seniority list will (as if it had to be said again and again) be FINAL and BINDING.

There has been discussion about producing more than two lists (AA & LCC). With that being proffered to the three arbitrator panel: You have just asked them to consider two separate lists (sans a ruling from Judge Silver's court) from the LCC pilots (east & west). These arbitrators that are likely friends & perhaps mentees of Arbitrator Nicolau (the arbitrator that the former US Air pilots have publicly lambasted, debased and besmirched).

How do you suppose that's going to work out?

First off, you are getting all hot and bothered about a post that was a joke. Second, you think a merger is all about your seniority.

As you pointed out, both bargaining agents could agree on a seniority list and it would go out for a ratification vote rather than to an arbitrator. LOS, no injunction. Nic proponents and DOH proponents can sue to their hearts content after the ratification.

Buh, bye.

 

[johnsonrod]

The NIC award will stand. That is next.



Bye Bye---General Lee

True DAT! It's time for JUSTICE and following a binding arbitration award......

 

[cactusboy53]

First off, you are getting all hot and bothered about a post that was a joke. Second, you think a merger is all about your seniority.

As you pointed out, both bargaining agents could agree on a seniority list and it would go out for a ratification vote rather than to an arbitrator. LOS, no injunction. Nic proponents and DOH proponents can sue to their hearts content after the ratification.

Buh, bye.

Read much? The bargaining agents (USAPA & APA) could come up with a list per McCaskill/Bond. If agreed upon, it is NOT ratified.

USAPA can not present LOS because they have painted themselves into the DOH corner. Offering ANYTHING other than DOH is AGAINST the Constitution & By Laws. WHEN USAPA proffers DOH to the proceedings..... Injuction & the path to the next DFR.

In case you didn't know, I don't think Mr. Parker will encumber LCC in continued litigation for seniority.

It's not about "my seniority". It's about agreeing to a process and keeping your word.

CB

 

[General Lee]

We'll see what Judge Silver says next week. Fingers crossed!!! Good luck Westies!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Turtle21]

Read much? The bargaining agents (USAPA & APA) could come up with a list per McCaskill/Bond. If agreed upon, it is NOT ratified.

USAPA can not present LOS because they have painted themselves into the DOH corner. Offering ANYTHING other than DOH is AGAINST the Constitution & By Laws. WHEN USAPA proffers DOH to the proceedings..... Injuction & the path to the next DFR.

In case you didn't know, I don't think Mr. Parker will encumber LCC in continued litigation for seniority.

It's not about "my seniority". It's about agreeing to a process and keeping your word.

CB

USAPA most certainly can agree to LOS with APA in a MB process, the company already agrees to MB, and a seniority list is ratified in an agreement.

Read much? The 9th told you when you, or anyone else in USAPA, can sue for DFR, not when you can get an injunction... Remember why the injunction was vacated? Too many contingencies, Not ripe. It ain't ripe for nobody until after completion of free bargaining and then after ratification of a new contract.

Silver may pull a Wake or maybe its just more wasted taxpayer money. Who knows.

If dreaming that you are righteous and I am wicked helps you sleep at night, be my guest. We got rid of the **************************************** that didn't keep their word. Take your best shot.

 

[General Lee]

USAPA most certainly can agree to LOS with APA in a MB process, the company already agrees to MB, and a seniority list is ratified in an agreement.

Read much? The 9th told you when you, or anyone else in USAPA, can sue for DFR, not when you can get an injunction... Remember why the injunction was vacated? Too many contingencies, Not ripe. It ain't ripe for nobody until after completion of free bargaining and then after ratification of a new contract.

Silver may pull a Wake or maybe its just more wasted taxpayer money. Who knows.

If dreaming that you are righteous and I am wicked helps you sleep at night, be my guest. We got rid of the **************************************** that didn't keep their word. Take your best shot.

Turtle. Oooooooh Turtle. Cactus is correct. It comes down to accepting something you agreed to. It's like a handshake while the other hand is behind your back crossing your fingers. The first step to redemption is admitting that you guys are acting like a bunch of jerks! Start with the man in the mirror, and quit acting like you don't know it's wrong.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[pave driver]

GL - I agree with you but don't view the NIC award as being unbiased or why you care? You seem often over emotional about our situation and it's just odd to say the least.

 

[Flybywire44]

The McCaskill/Bond mirrors ALPA merger policy. The ONLY way it could go a "TWA style route" is if BOTH parties agree to a seniority integration (SWA-AirTran). I don't see that happening (IMHO).

Otherwise it will go to a three panel arbitration board (per the conditions of the Term Sheet), and the delivered seniority list will (as if it had to be said again and again) be FINAL and BINDING.

There has been discussion about producing more than two lists (AA & LCC). With that being proffered to the three arbitrator panel: You have just asked them to consider two separate lists (sans a ruling from Judge Silver's court) from the LCC pilots (east & west). These arbitrators that are likely friends & perhaps mentees of Arbitrator Nicolau (the arbitrator that the former US Air pilots have publicly lambasted, debased and besmirched).

How do you suppose that's going to work out?

Wow.

This is the first time that I have seen you acknowledge an alternative to Nic.

I thought you were Nic or nothing this whole time. :smash:

 

[cactusboy53]

Wow.

This is the first time that I have seen you acknowledge an alternative to Nic.

I thought you were Nic or nothing this whole time. :smash:

I am. There is NO alternative to the Nicolau seniority list. I was merely pontificating of other possible scenarios and how that might play out with the McCaskill / Bond arbitration.

The Nicolau seniority list is the only list that is on Parker's desk. Using the Nicolau seniority list is the ONLY way to keep all parties safe from legal action.

USAPA supporters have gone from DOH, to LOS, to a "three way", to ?????? The fever pitch to evade the Nicolau seniority list continues. USAPA just amended it's Union Operation Manual to firmly secure seniority via Date of Hire. IF USAPA now puts ANYTHING other than Date of Hire, they will be in violation of the Constitution and By Law AND the UOM. They have completely painted themselves into a corner.

 

[cactusboy53]

USAPA most certainly can agree to LOS with APA in a MB process, the company already agrees to MB, and a seniority list is ratified in an agreement.

Read much? The 9th told you when you, or anyone else in USAPA, can sue for DFR, not when you can get an injunction... Remember why the injunction was vacated? Too many contingencies, Not ripe. It ain't ripe for nobody until after completion of free bargaining and then after ratification of a new contract.

Silver may pull a Wake or maybe its just more wasted taxpayer money. Who knows.

If dreaming that you are righteous and I am wicked helps you sleep at night, be my guest. We got rid of the **************************************** that didn't keep their word. Take your best shot.

USAPA Constitution & By Laws and UOM state that seniority and merged seniority go by DOH. Using any other method must be changed in those documents, and then in the process with the parties.

I guess we'll see what Judge Silver says next Tuesday and go from there. Worst case for PHX? Judge Silver gives LCC a "bye" on litigation. USAPA will not get a "bye". The West Class will be free to sue USAPA (again) when it passes the "ripeness" test.

Have a great weekend.

CB

 

[Flybywire44]

I am. There is NO alternative to the Nicolau seniority list. I was merely pontificating of other possible scenarios and how that might play out with the McCaskill / Bond arbitration.

The Nicolau seniority list is the only list that is on Parker's desk. Using the Nicolau seniority list is the ONLY way to keep all parties safe from legal action.

USAPA supporters have gone from DOH, to LOS, to a "three way", to ?????? The fever pitch to evade the Nicolau seniority list continues. USAPA just amended it's Union Operation Manual to firmly secure seniority via Date of Hire. IF USAPA now puts ANYTHING other than Date of Hire, they will be in violation of the Constitution and By Law AND the UOM. They have completely painted themselves into a corner.

You are contradicting yourself, but I agree with you that there are other "possible scenarios" to the Nicolau Arbitration Award.

Parker doe have the Nicolau award "sitting on his desk," but October 2nd he may find out if LCC/Merged AMR would have any liability in using an alternative list chosen by USAPA/APA.

I think we're 2-2.5 years from seeing this seniority issue solved. We should start a 24 month countdown thread when JCBA is announced.

 

[cactusboy53]

You are contradicting yourself, but I agree with you that there are other "possible scenarios" to the Nicolau Arbitration Award.

Parker does have the Nicolau award "sitting on his desk," but October 2nd he may find out if LCC/Merged AMR would have any liability in using an alternative list chosen by USAPA/APA.

I think we're 2-2.5 years from seeing this seniority issue solved. We should start a 24 month countdown thread when JCBA is announced.

I thought I was rather clear, and not contradicting myself. That was the part where I said I did not believe there was any other legal alternative to the use of the Nicolau seniority list.

While the parties may offer other possible scenarios, it doesn't change the fact that the Nicolau seniority list is the only legal list as delivered by ALPA to Doug Parker (thus on his desk, credenza, file cabinet, etc.).

We'll see what Judge Silver has to say on Tuesday. I'm done early in Philly on Tuesday, and will be seeking court room reports from those that were able to attend.

CB

 

[Flybywire44]

I thought I was rather clear, and not contradicting myself. That was the part where I said I did not believe there was any other legal alternative to the use of the Nicolau seniority list.

While the parties may offer other possible scenarios, it doesn't change the fact that the Nicolau seniority list is the only legal list as delivered by ALPA to Doug Parker (thus on his desk, credenza, file cabinet, etc.).

We'll see what Judge Silver has to say on Tuesday. I'm done early in Philly on Tuesday, and will be seeking court room reports from those that were able to attend.

CB

Sorry Cactusboy53, I just couldn't resist! :beer:

 

[Turtle21]

USAPA Constitution & By Laws and UOM state that seniority and merged seniority go by DOH. Using any other method must be changed in those documents, and then in the process with the parties.

I guess we'll see what Judge Silver says next Tuesday and go from there. Worst case for PHX? Judge Silver gives LCC a "bye" on litigation. USAPA will not get a "bye". The West Class will be free to sue USAPA (again) when it passes the "ripeness" test.

Have a great weekend.

CB

The 9th made it abundantly clear. No injunction. Maybe Silver thinks she is above that. USAPA has freedom to bargain. Members that don't like the outcome can sue once a contract is ratified. The 9th also cited the SCOTUS for the standard that a plaintiff will have to prove in order to be successful in a DFR suit. The plaintiff will have to prove the union acted in a way that is arbitrary and outside a wide range of reasonableness.

Good luck.

 

[Turtle21]

Turtle. Oooooooh Turtle. Cactus is correct. It comes down to accepting something you agreed to. It's like a handshake while the other hand is behind your back crossing your fingers. The first step to redemption is admitting that you guys are acting like a bunch of jerks! Start with the man in the mirror, and quit acting like you don't know it's wrong.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Its an internal union dispute. Your life will be brighter and happier if you don't burden yourself with matters that are not your own. I'm confident if you looked at Delta as much as you look at USAir you would find enough for you to busy yourself with things that are important to you, whatever those things are. Try it.

 

[General Lee]

Its an internal union dispute. Your life will be brighter and happier if you don't burden yourself with matters that are not your own. I'm confident if you looked at Delta as much as you look at USAir you would find enough for you to busy yourself with things that are important to you, whatever those things are. Try it.

HAHAHAHAHHAHA. It's an "internal union dispute." You mean ALPA? Oh wait, you voted them out to get rid of an arbitrated AWARD. You guys are complete tools, and it will come back and get you in the end. Enjoy every minute of your lower pay (thanks to no negotiations), and it will result in the same conclusion, the NIC award. BYE!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[charlie2]

I thought I was rather clear, and not contradicting myself. That was the part where I said I did not believe there was any other legal alternative to the use of the Nicolau seniority list.

While the parties may offer other possible scenarios, it doesn't change the fact that the Nicolau seniority list is the only legal list as delivered by ALPA to Doug Parker (thus on his desk, credenza, file cabinet, etc.).

We'll see what Judge Silver has to say on Tuesday. I'm done early in Philly on Tuesday, and will be seeking court room reports from those that were able to attend.

CB

I'm done early in PHL too so see you there Dave!!

 

[charlie2]

HAHAHAHAHHAHA. It's an "internal union dispute." You mean ALPA? Oh wait, you voted them out to get rid of an arbitrated AWARD. You guys are complete tools, and it will come back and get you in the end. Enjoy every minute of your lower pay (thanks to no negotiations), and it will result in the same conclusion, the NIC award. BYE!


Bye Bye---General Lee

Hi Pvt. Lee. Pay isn't the only important part of a contract. The choice we had at US Stupidways with the AWA genious (wunderkind) Parker at the helm was getting a couple dollars more per hour (YEA for the AWA guys) but raping us with work rules, scope, min fleet, min utilization rate and they are still trying to do the same with the AA "term sheet". Oh ya and I would have had to have their two month guys as my captain...sounds to me like you are right and we passed up a great deal...Private. Thanks for all your help.

 

[General Lee]

Hi Pvt. Lee. Pay isn't the only important part of a contract. The choice we had at US Stupidways with the AWA genious (wunderkind) Parker at the helm was getting a couple dollars more per hour (YEA for the AWA guys) but raping us with work rules, scope, min fleet, min utilization rate and they are still trying to do the same with the AA "term sheet". Oh ya and I would have had to have their two month guys as my captain...sounds to me like you are right and we passed up a great deal...Private. Thanks for all your help.

Hey Sulley. Anyways.......You guys were going to EAT it or go CHAP 7. Them's is the facts. AWA got a mortgage and bought your butts. They did. You then agreed on binding arbitration, and your MEC chair even said NIC was a good guy to do it. Then, when NIC was ready to give his award, he told your guy to come around and try to work it out. Did your guy take NIC's advice? NOPE. IDIOTS. You could have changed the pay, the work rules, etc with a NEW contract, but instead, your A320 Captains make less per hour than I do. What a joke. You guys have helped ruin this profession by showing you can say NO to a handshake, a BINDING award that honorable men would abide to because they AGREED to it. But NOOOOOOOO, you instead are just a joke.


Bye Bye---General Lee