What is the status of the ALPA De-certification vote at US Airways?

[surfnfly]

Let me guess positive rate you were ex-Mesa

Keep in mind, most of the rhettoric and pure stupidity posted by the likes of Kerosene, BeCareful and Weasil Lips are guys who were furloughed and are the most disenfranchised of the East bunch.

You can pretty much ignore ALGFLYER - he was neither an America West employee or US Airways employee and should be thankful he even gets to fight with us as he backdoored his way in and should be happy to be at the bottom of the list, not scabbily salivating over some dream of a seat grab with the rest of the USAPA d-bags.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

However this election turns out....if you don't get involved, you deserve what you get.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Plato -
- One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.

 

[PositiveRate]

"Let me guess positive rate you were ex-Mesa"

Surfnfly - guess again, but it's pretty clear the implication you're making.

Now let me play....

Let me guess...you're a furloughed guy who took a slot at PSA and believed you were handed a big plate of wrong from Nicolau? I mean after all, you should definitely get to come back ahead of all those junior 'ex-mesa' guys on the west right?

So, as a furloughed guy, what are your plans in the upcoming vote for representation (if it comes to that)? Will you vote for USAPA or ALPA and why?

 

[tico]

Just out of curiosity I have been reading at length the "tomes" of the Railway Labor Act. Under the sections governing de-certification of an existing union and electing a new representative body, there is language that allows the "carrier" to not honor or abide by the collective bargaining agreements of the former representative body. So some further research at the NMB turned up that while it is customary it is not required to honor any part of a CBA. Additionally the carrier is not obliged to consider any part of the former CBA during future negotiations with the newly elected representative body.
Have the proponents of USAPA covered these areas of the RLA with the membership.
What stops the new USAIR, upon receipt of notice that ALPA has been de-certified, from doing away with both CBA'S from America West and UsAirways. If so then will they not enforce their own version of integration/pay/work rules etc.. and then spend the next 5 years negotiating with USAPA....I found several cases where it happened outside of aviation and I wonder, can it happen to you guys too.
As a disclaimer, I have no dog in this fight. I feel that the old UsAirways ALPA group was very negligent all through this decade in looking out for the interests of their membership. I hope that this USAPA drive does not include any of those individuals. If it is truly a grass roots effort by frustrated membership then it will survive and succeed. It will include both airlines memberships and the new agreement will be good for both.

 

[waveflyer]

Tico- i believe that it is customary to abide by the CBA b/c anything else could be construed in court as interference w/ the organizing process. It is a good question though and my answer isn't definitive.

I do wish that the motives for this de-cert were as noble. I truly think that AWA has been just as unimpressed by ALPA leadership- but this is a fairly transparent scheme to get rid of the Nic Award and i think they have a lot of unanswered questions to figure first. What USAPA isn't however, is dumb. ALPA leadership should be more concerned than writing a few "concerned pilots" letters..... otherwise this kind of drive could snowball to other carriers.... And all i can say is... why have a national union if it's not united and if there is no national plan? ALPA has my support b/c the true problems plaguing our profession are inherent in the seniority system... we will do ANYTHING to keep from starting over- management knows this and uses it against us. If ALPA wants to stick around- they'll have to lead and solve this problem. USAPA's at the center of it- National can't sit on the sideline and be a process provider to individual MEC's looking out only for themselves... we've seen where that leads us.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

waveflyer-

valids points.... the national union is there to speak to congress for example, as it just did....

but there is very little cohesion amongts the warring factions... er I mean .... MECs.

At times it seems the Sunni, Shiite and Kurds have a better chance at agreement.... oh wait... they just did!!

We do need a more cohesive national leadership... the goal and intent.... find it not start a new union

 

[Turtle21]

....I feel that the old UsAirways ALPA group was very negligent all through this decade in looking out for the interests of their membership. I hope that this USAPA drive does not include any of those individuals. If it is truly a grass roots effort by frustrated membership then it will survive and succeed. It will include both airlines memberships and the new agreement will be good for both.

There were calls for decertification of ALPA Within minutes of the ALPA-Nic abortion being delivered.

Prater and his pals (along with his pals at AAA) have tried everything they know to deflate the grass roots drive to decertify and replace ALPA. Everything that is.. except do what is right.

 

[Freight Dog]

What IS right?

Can someone answer that? I really want to know what do AAA guys think is right. By 'right', I mean right for both groups, no windfalls.

We all know that DOH isn't right. So what is?

PLEASE... someone answer that.

 

[ALGFLYR]

What IS right?

Can someone answer that? I really want to know what do AAA guys think is right. By 'right', I mean right for both groups, no windfalls.

We all know that DOH isn't right. So what is?

PLEASE... someone answer that.

OK, I'll try. I posted this near the beginning of this thread before the bashing began, so I'll post it again:

If 20 CA's retire from PHX, then the 20 upgrades MUST come from the West to replace them. Thinking an East pilot should is just stupid. If 10 East 767 pilots retire from PHL, then 10 East pilots should take their place. I personally think that fences should be the way to live with the Nic award. Our junior pilot that was NEVER furloughed was a Captain for quite a while. He was subsequently downgraded as we went through BK. So why should he have to wait until EVERY AWA FO upgrades into an originally East CA slot before he gets a chance?

Let us have our pre-merger CA slots for pre-merger East FO's and we will let you have all pre-merger West CA slots for pre-meger West Fo's. All "NEW" flying can be split down the middle.

 

[Freight Dog]

OK... fair enough. Now, let me ask you this. Your junior pilot that was never furloughed - what was his status on the date that the merger was announced?

What was his career expectation at the old, original USAirways? How long was he going to wait to upgrade to captain?

Also, what about the top 517 pilots from the old USAirways?

Can you address that too?

 

[Turtle21]

What IS right?

Can someone answer that? I really want to know what do AAA guys think is right. By 'right', I mean right for both groups, no windfalls.

We all know that DOH isn't right. So what is?

PLEASE... someone answer that.

One lovable fault of pilots is their desire to jump in and assume responsibility for fixing things, without asking the question "Who's responsibility is it?"

Prater and his pals have collected a hell of a lot of dues from the pilots, yet they have embraced the failed policy that they of all people are NOT the ones who will discern what is fair--they just collect dues and publish color magazines.

In this vacuum of direction created by ALPA it is necessary that we all rely on the wisdom of each other. Starting with the premise that each of us is equally intelligent then we can extrapolate that a majority vote is in order to get us all past this ALPA train wreck and into a path where we can all collectively move forward, with a mutual solution decided upon by each of us collectively.

 

[vetrider]

There were calls for decertification of ALPA Within minutes of the ALPA-Nic abortion being delivered.

Prater and his pals (along with his pals at AAA) have tried everything they know to deflate the grass roots drive to decertify and replace ALPA. Everything that is.. except do what is right.

I disagree, I think Prater wants US east and west gone and out of his hair. I think ALPA national's attempt to deflate the usapa threat is half hearted at best, just enough to make it appear that they care.

I think Prater tried to help the east "get out of" the nic, but obviously found that he couldn't. I believe that he has probably lost what sympathy he had for the east when he saw how downright nasty alot of them could get. End result, he just wants us all gone, in my opinion.

 

[Turtle21]

I disagree, I think Prater wants US east and west gone and out of his hair. I think ALPA national's attempt to deflate the usapa threat is half hearted at best, just enough to make it appear that they care.

I think Prater tried to help the east "get out of" the nic, but obviously found that he couldn't. I believe that he has probably lost what sympathy he had for the east when he saw how downright nasty alot of them could get. End result, he just wants us all gone, in my opinion.

Perhaps ALPA does just want us out.. which makes it even more necessary that we rely on the wisdom of everyone of us to come to an agreeable way to move forward, seeing that we can no longer hang onto the skirt of ALPA.

 

[Freight Dog]

One lovable fault of pilots is their desire to jump in and assume responsibility for fixing things, without asking the question "Who's responsibility is it?"

Prater and his pals have collected a hell of a lot of dues from the pilots, yet they have embraced the failed policy that they of all people are NOT the ones who will discern what is fair--they just collect dues and publish color magazines.

In this vacuum of direction created by ALPA it is necessary that we all rely on the wisdom of each other. Starting with the premise that each of us is equally intelligent then we can extrapolate that a majority vote is in order to get us all past this ALPA train wreck and into a path where we can all collectively move forward, with a mutual solution decided upon by each of us collectively.

You still didn't answer my question. What IS right?

 

[erjdude]

We could do it one of two ways. The first way would be to negotiate an agreement.

If the sides cannot agree maybe we could bring in a mediator to help both sides come to an agreement.

If all else fails then binding arbitration might be necessary. Ideally this arbitrator would be one of the most experienced and respected in the nation. Also it would be a big plus if both sides choose this arbitrator.

Ultimately I would hope that this arbitrator come up with a list that would leave senior captains as senior captains. And hopefully it would leave those that were junior FOs in their respective position.

This would avoid any windfall for any one group or person because that would leave them in exactly the same position before and after the merger.



The second way would be to just use date of hire. This would work fine for two companies that had been in business a similar period of time, with a similar growth pattern and financial health. However if one airline had been in business for a great period of time, had not done well financially for many years say two decades and in fact had done nothing but shrink for twenty years (except for one brief period involving red airplanes) and the other airline had only been in business for twenty years but had been continually growing and hiring for that period then date of hire could be problematic. For example it could lead to a furloughed pilot at one airline ending up senior to over half the captains at another airline.

By the way any guesses how the lists will be merged in the coming consolidation. My guess is not one list will be merged DOH.

 

[Turtle21]

You still didn't answer my question. What IS right?

Just because I didn't tell you what you want to hear does not mean that I didn't answer your question.:laugh:

It does not matter what I think is right or what you think is right. Neither of us has the authority to make it a reality.

What matters is who has the authority to establish the reality of "right". ALPA has decided they don't, so we all will now have to vote on it. And since we are all smart and wise pilots, the collective answer in a vote will be the right answer. Ask me what is "right" once the vote is over--that will be my opinion, and then my opinion will mean something.
:beer:
Cheers!

 

[Carl S.]

If the West gives an inch to the demands of the East for their demands of "Fair and Equitable" after a decision was rendered in binding arbitration, a new legal process will be established. I like to call it the "HostagePhase" and all cases after this with a list merger with an arbitration will look into it.
What is the East willing to give for some form of relielf from the implementation of the list? All other arguements are moot because the list is done, except for the process to play out.

 

[waveflyer]

when is the vote?

 

[ALGFLYR]

when is the vote?

1-2 weeks...

 

[Carl S.]

Early April at the earliest, if at all due to all the bad cards sent in.

 

[waveflyer]

which one is the right answer?
AlgFlyer i have been hearing that the vote is "just around the corner" for a while.... It seems it's been 1-2 weeks away for all of 2008. But i'm not in the loop.

 

[ferlo]

What IS right?

Can someone answer that? I really want to know what do AAA guys think is right. By 'right', I mean right for both groups, no windfalls.

We all know that DOH isn't right. So what is?

PLEASE... someone answer that.

What IS Right is to follow the law. Everybody signs their life away before the arbitration process even begins. They knew the risks, they were even warned mid way thru, and they still went ahead with their doh position. Now the East is endlessly whining and wimpering like a bunch of b*tches. I'm embarrassed for them.

I'll have zero sympathy for those crybaby/codgers when their all on the street as well...

 

[Prog 2/2]

It does not matter what I think is right or what you think is right. Neither of us has the authority to make it a reality.

What matters is who has the authority to establish the reality of "right".
:beer:
Cheers!

Nope, it does not matter what either you or I believe to be "right", fair, or equitable.

We gave the arbitrator the "authority" to decide that for all of us.

Just because his decision doesn't fit your preconcieved notion of the outcome does not make the outcome moot, the award unfair, or the process flawed.

 

[ALGFLYR]

which one is the right answer?
AlgFlyer i have been hearing that the vote is "just around the corner" for a while.... It seems it's been 1-2 weeks away for all of 2008. But i'm not in the loop.

This was part of a USAPA update Feb. 13th:

The NMB has received the Company's Eligibility List, and we are examining the list for accuracy. We anticipate that the NMB will issue a Finding of Dispute in one to two weeks; the ballots could issue in as little as 3 to 4 weeks with the vote count 30 days after. Based upon what we know, an estimated election date could be around the 7th to 14th of March, with a count 30 days later. All timings are estimated and ultimately determined by the NMB.

 

[Carl S.]

That does not sound like one to two weeks to me!

 

[ALGFLYR]

That does not sound like one to two weeks to me!

Yeah my bad... I was just thinking off the top of my head trying to remember the USAPA update. I read it on the 13 and thought it was about a week old. So I thought about 2 weeks and said 1 to 2 weeks. I retract that statement and now say 2 to 3 weeks. Sorry for the confusion....

 

[BeCareful!]

Nope, it does not matter what either you or I believe to be "right", fair, or equitable.

We gave the arbitrator the "authority" to decide that for all of us.

Just because his decision doesn't fit your preconcieved notion of the outcome does not make the outcome moot, the award unfair, or the process flawed.

Ah, but if the lists he used were faulty, and if merger policy wasn't adhered to, and if one of the CBA's (Collective Bargaining Agents) were found to be incompetent and unscrupulous, then I see a case were it should be revisited.

ALPA on the East side is a group of infighting, ineffective losers. The pilots they represent shouldn't have to bear the weight of their incompetence, since they have stayed in power through lies and deceit.

But I do have good news......I just saved a bunch of money by switching to GEICO......and, as a bonus, we are about to vote these Flight Pay Loss-sucking idiots out of office and back to the line.

 

[Green]

This was part of a USAPA update Feb. 13th:

The NMB has received the Company's Eligibility List, and we are examining the list for accuracy. We anticipate that the NMB will issue a Finding of Dispute in one to two weeks; the ballots could issue in as little as 3 to 4 weeks with the vote count 30 days after. Based upon what we know, an estimated election date could be around the 7th to 14th of March, with a count 30 days later. All timings are estimated and ultimately determined by the NMB.

Algflyr- what is your motivation for being a USAPA supporter? Is it just a blatant attempt at a seniority grab? You were never even hired at AAA, just flowed through to MDA from Alg, and now YOU feel screwed in the whole deal? Honestly you should feel fortunate to have been given a position at mainline and even more fortunate that the company is going to hire several hundred pilots behind you. Do you feel entitled to being senior to even ONE AWA pilot?????????????????

 

[TWA Dude]

Ah, but if the lists he used were faulty,

Nicolau ruled on the status of the MDA pilots. He knew all about the issues therein.

... and if merger policy wasn't adhered to,...

Nicolau was tasked with interpreting ALPA Merger Policy. Saying he didn't follow the policy is like saying a US Supreme Court ruling is unconstitutional. In each case they are the highest authority.

...and if one of the CBA's (Collective Bargaining Agents) were found to be incompetent and unscrupulous, then I see a case were it should be revisited.

If that were the case every CBA would have to be revisted.

ALPA on the East side is a group of infighting, ineffective losers.

This is just way too easy so I'll let it go.