What is the status of the ALPA De-certification vote at US Airways?

[GerryG]

I have no dog in this hunt and I viewed this thread out of curiosity, but ya know... Management is always behind these "Pilots Associations". ALWAYS

God help you if you take this bait. ALPA might be on the ropes right now but, good god wait until management has a direct conduit to your PA's leadership.

Did management start the whispering campaign yet about how everything is going to be honkie-dorie, if you guys vote this thing in?

 

[waveflyer]

Why I submitted the card.


1. ALPA agreed to do away with the pension with no pilot vote.

2. ALPA allowed the increase from 85 hours to 95 hours a month. that kept the furloughees out another 2 years at least.

3. ALPA allowed the sales outsourcing of the 170's and 175's, keeping the furloughees out and downgrading more Captains. At least we kept the 190's Thanks to the AWA guys as I understand it.

4. ALPA allowed the wholesale outsourcing frenzy of RJ's (hundreds of airframes) with over 1800 pilots on the street.

5. ALPA couldn't have cared less about me (furloughee) for the past five years, now that I have a vote they want to be my best friend again.

Just a partial list and I am not including the hose job at my furloughee job with another carrier at the hands of ALPA national.

For the last 6 years I have watched ALPA support whoever fills their pockets more, They seem to have lost sight of what their purpose is, not the "Association" as their letters to me keep stating, but the pilots.

Is USAPA the right choice? Dunno, but a little change is not always bad. Win or lose this process will have the effect of shaking things up and reminding the union (whoever it ends up being) what their real purpose is.....and it is not their bank account.

I think it's funny b/c i talk to AWA people and they haven't exactly been treated well by alpa- like a step-child actually- they talk of how ALPA national opened the strike fund for comair but not them, the latest being prater waffling on the Nic award- not fully backing it and truly energizing the idea that the award won't become final when it should have.

BUT IT'S THE TIMING. i don't think anyone's confused about why this is happening. This being the straw makes it so much more deplorable. You got screwed in every way possible- but it's a young guy being on equal seniority ground that puts you over the edge?? It's just crazy. Realize that the entire industry has younger pilots w/ better "seniority" than you. The fact that you merged w/ someone does not give you a right to jump over them and bump them down.

 

[Fast43]

Yes the union had to agree to all of it for the company to be allowed to do it. That is a very simplified version, but in the end that is the case. There is an ALPA signature on each one of those agreements.

It is not so much the fact that it happened as the way it happened, I sat for 6 years and watched ALPA roll over to mgmt. time and time again. If there are extenuating circumstances as to why they let scope, retirement, and all the other stuff go with no more than minimal lip service I am all ears. We still have some time before the vote.

Just curious, where were your elected Pilot Reps when all this occurred?

Could the "extenuating circumstances" you mentioned be related to 2 trips through Bankruptcy, where some hard, not so popular decisions had to be made. Is it possible that these decisions facilitated your return?

Fast

 

[737 Pylt]

....no hypocracy 737pylt......I'm looking out for number 1 also......and that ain't you..... If you can't beat'em.......join'em.....

No Johnny, don't you mean, if you can't beat em, sue them?!

It's clear by looking at the various issues that we all look at them from our own perspective and don't really give a darn about the affect on the other guy......Whether it senior/junior pay vs. pension, age 60, scope, or mergers.....I don't feel the love......

That love stopped the minute your gang of undesirables started their $$billion lawsuit!

While this isn't good for "collective" bargaining....it is a reality....Ignoring it and pretending that it doesn't exist simply means you will be run over by a fellow "brother".....

You and LJ are one in the same dude! I almost feel sorry for you. Too bad, some day you'll still be 55 years old flying your rj (since the atr is going), telling the twenty something year old new hires, "just how you tried to change the world" by suiing them!
You're pathetic dude. Your anti-alpa drivel is as old as your girlfriend! Your way of fixing it was to take notes, and not play nice at mec/lec meetings. As secretary treasurer you had a chance to be influencial, however you chose to just remain a prick!

737

 

[Fast43]

So the guys who will never see the left seat again should just say O.K.?

So now the Left seat is a birthright ?????

They have nothing left to lose except a crappy paying right seat position and retirement as a 30 year F/O. They can get that at any other carrier in the country, and if Airways goes down the tubes they have still lost nothing. No retirement loss, no seniority loss, no monetary loss....nothing. That is why they are fighting so hard and why from what I have seen why they will not relent or vote for anything that keeps then in the same position.

I have something to lose in this as do the other 400 or so that came back and are young enough to see the retirements out and still get to the left seat. The majority of the 3ooo + east guys do not. I lose and the west loses, but they do not.

If we do not come to some agreement that addresses these guys concerns airways is done, period. And telling them that an arbitrator said so is not going to stop them from trying to salvage something out of a 25 year career.

So then we are looking at a group of suicide bombers with their fingers on the button and we better give in or else !!!!!....................

While I do not like that prospect, I can see their point. You are 56 years old, making 80 k tops with 25 years served and NIC has said that that is as far as you will ever go and that you will retire in exactly the same position you are in today.......why on earth would he not do whatever was possible to try to salvage it? Worst case? He finishes out his career as a higher paid SWA F/O or UPS F/O or Allegiant Captain or Kalitta 747 Captain. Even as an Allegiant md-80 Cappy he does better than he does with the nic award.

Problem is, he didn't do that when he should have and now we have this mess.

I'm sure the attitudes of these guys are in great demand at those carriers!!! Should ace the interview.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Are you saying you have me on your "ignore" list???

I feel honored that you would think you cannot carry on a conversation with me. I am one of the few posters that does not flame everyone in sight. I ignore (in my mind) all the fames and hatred being thrown around, but seriousily listen to coherent posts and arguments presented here. If I have a different opinion, I state it from my point of view. And unless I'm called out specifically, I never participate in the fighting between the Easties and Westies....

And with that said, if I really am on your ignore list... Where on that list am I??? Since I'm going for a seat grab, I want to be near the TOP of that list! At least I could be senior on SOME list....

No your not on my ignore list. Just think someone who is new to the property should keep his mouth shut for a while to get a sense of which way the wind his blowing and get his facts together before posting and making a fool of himself. That's all. And don't sit there and tell us you got hired at USAir mainline in 2004. YOU GOT HIRED AT MDA !! Whole different animal.


PHXFLYR

 

[Fast43]

Whenwas the last time you heard an AWA guy say anything other than "Nic award" when the fence subject was brought up?

You haven't heard that anywhere near as many times as we heard DOH. In fact didn't your mec mandate by resolution that nothing but DOH would be accepted............

Didn't work so well I guess.

 

[SaturnPilot]

Yes, you make it sound so simple, but I have some friends who work for US Air in CLT, and they put out a motion to recall the CLT LEC, but the council refuses to hear any part of it????? And, from what I have heard it is because the CLT LEC is kissing alpa national a$$, so national will not do anything about it. It all politics, and alpa national is Always going to do whatever they want, regardless.

As PCL stated, this is not a proper way to recall an officer. From the constitution:
"
F. RECALL OF LOCAL COUNCIL REPRESENTATIVE OR OFFICER

At a Local Council meeting, which has been called to consider, among other things, a recall, such Local Council, by a majority vote of the Active members in good standing of that council then present, and valid proxies, may request the Vice President-Administration/Secretary to initiate and circulate a ballot among the Active members of such Local Council for the removal of a Local Council Status Representative or Officer, said ballot to be conducted under Association Voting Procedures. Such ballots shall be validated and tallied under the supervision of the Election and Ballot Certification Board who shall certify the results and notify the Vice President-Administration/Secretary. The Vice President-Administration/Secretary shall promptly mail a copy of the certification of results to the members of the Local Council."

With ALPA national threatening to force a contract down our throat without a ratification vote, this was quicker than replacing the MEC. Not much time left...

I can pretty much guarantee that replacing your entire union takes longer than an officer recall. Also, it's your MEC that would approve a contract without ratification, not ALPA national.

People who go around saying "ALPA did this" or "ALPA is going to screw us" are trying to play on your emotions. As has been said earlier, ALPA has VERY little to say in the decisions at your airline. ALPA works by having each airline MEC make ALL of the decisions for that airline. In other words, we all pretty much already have an independent union. That's one of the issues that many have had with ALPA, the "states rights" theory of governance.
USAPA does a nice job of promising impossible utopia to the membership, such as:

"Merger policy: as provided for in USAPA By-Laws seniority integration will occur by date-of-hire with reasonable conditions and restrictions..."

That's not even legal anymore.

"Better, more efficient services provided"

Thank you for that informative description of your services.

"Simplified committee structure"

again...informative.

"Union officers elected, and subject to recall, by the pilots"

exactly the SAME AS IT IS NOW!!!

 

[Fast43]

With ALPA national threatening to force a contract down our throat without a ratification vote, this was quicker than replacing the MEC. Not much time left...

Could you prove that ALPA National is actually threatening this or are you just parroting the great wizzards of usapa.

F

 

[PositiveRate]

PHXFLYER,

But didn't you read their retorts? You and I are obviously mis-informed as they WERE INDEED hired to US Airways, because the door on their EXPRESS airplanes said MDA operated by US Airways...and don't forget that their ALPA card says AAA. (Heavy Sarcasm here)

The embraer division? You've got to be freakin' kidding me. They did not interview for mainline, they went through a loophole and ended up at the bottom of the list (where they belong). And it seems they've been properly brainwashed into thinking what they read on the USAPA website is gospel.

Like I said - go ahead and vote for USAPA and then get fatigued, sick after checkin, exchange words with a gate agent, violated, DUI, cancer, blah blah blah the day after - you know one of those things that would never happen to you (again with the sarcasm) and see how much your new union has your back.

I can't believe that they have no concern for the effect on every other pilot group in or close to negotiations. They're no better than mesa or gojets by willfully keeping the bar low - not by weakness or intimidation, but through spite. The karma oven is just about as stoked as it can get. As TWAdude said...not matter what happens, we have walked the proper path and will have no blood on our hands. We owe them nothing and if the tables were turned, they would feel exactly the same and the USAPA drive would not exist. The bottom line is this is about arrogance, entitlement and the belief that the majority can extort from the minority.

 

[Freight Dog]

Kerosene, if a 2000 hire at AWA was gnat's ass close to upgrading to captain, and East 1986 hire date FO couldn't hold a frigging bid line as a narrowbody FO, sorry bud... 2000 hire at AWA who's gnat's ass close to captain gets senior in a merger. Any other way = WINDFALL. Sorry, LONGEVITY does not equal SENIORITY.

The sooner you grasp that concept, the better off you'll be.

 

[waveflyer]

Kerosene, if a 2000 hire at AWA was gnat's ass close to upgrading to captain, and East 1986 hire date FO couldn't hold a frigging bid line as a narrowbody FO, sorry bud... 2000 hire at AWA who's gnat's ass close to captain gets senior in a merger. Any other way = WINDFALL. Sorry, LONGEVITY does not equal SENIORITY.

The sooner you grasp that concept, the better off you'll be.

never heard it said better.... i wish i could write as succinctly.

 

[ALGFLYR]

PHXFLYER,

But didn't you read their retorts? You and I are obviously mis-informed as they WERE INDEED hired to US Airways, because the door on their EXPRESS airplanes said MDA operated by US Airways...and don't forget that their ALPA card says AAA. (Heavy Sarcasm here)

The embraer division? You've got to be freakin' kidding me. They did not interview for mainline, they went through a loophole and ended up at the bottom of the list (where they belong)....

Metrojet was a division of US Airways with seperate contract provisions. The planes said Metrojet - not US Airways... Were those pilots ML? Of course they were because they were pilots on the seniority list flying aircraft on the US Airways operating certificate - same as MDA...

Loophole? Not quite... We are legally and rightfully on the seniority list. Yes at the bottom where we belong. I have never said I should be anywhere else before or after this merger.

What are your feelings on the AW pilots hired that flew the Dash 8? That's not a mainline plane yet they are on your seniority list. What backdoor did they go through? Or were they legally and rightfully on your list because they flew an aircraft on the AWA operating certificate?

 

[FR8mastr]

That's all. And don't sit there and tell us you got hired at USAir mainline in 2004. YOU GOT HIRED AT MDA !! Whole different animal.


PHXFLYR

Can you prove he was hired at MDA? the company that did not ever exist.

He can however prove he was hired at US Airways, with applications, and Pria forms ect, not to mention an Airways seniority number from August of 04.

Nobody was hired at MDA! MDA was not a corporation, did not have a certificate, it did not exist. It was a division of US Airways. I dont know how to make that any more clear. Whoever is telling you that MDA was an airline is either lying or just not in touch with reality.
I am sorry if this offends you, but it is what it is, or was.

 

[FR8mastr]

Could you prove that ALPA National is actually threatening this or are you just parroting the great wizzards of usapa.

F

this information comes from ALPA reps not USAPA