What is going on at Avantair?

[citationsarejun]

My pilot friend at Avantair has been there 3 years and makes $72,000.00. Whats the issue with pay?

 

[gunfyter]

I don't know. That looks like a pretty good number to me.

 

[netjetwife]

Gunfyter, I'm surprised at you.... Don't we need a little more info?

First we have to know what position we're talking about--PIC or SIC?
How many days worked in a year? Is that base pay or total? What are the benefits like?

Has your friend been there a full 3 years already, and is now working on the 4th year? Or is s/he on the 3rd year now?

3rd Year NJA, SIC on the 7&7 = $42,998..... Reserve = $51,030

4th Year NJA, SIC on the 7&7 = $45,147..... Reserve = $53,582

3rd Year NJA, PIC on the 7&7 = $71,250......Reserve = $84,560

4th Year NJA, PIC on the 7&7 = $80,625......Reserve = $95,687

This is base pay, without per diem or OT. NJA pilots have very good medical benefits, including dental and vision. Excellent 401K match and paid vacation---plus, it's all in writing. That said, I agree that the FO pay is still too low, and the domicile system too restrictive. The pilots have made progress but clearly there is more work to be done.

 

[citationsarejun]

He told me he just started his third year, flew about 6 months as an sic then over a year and a half as a pic. I think that is the major benefit they upgrade faster and get pic pay. The sic wages are low but not the pic wages. I will try to get in touch with him to get more information.

 

[jonjuan]

Gunfyter, I'm surprised at you.... Don't we need a little more info?

First we have to know what position we're talking about--PIC or SIC?
How many days worked in a year? Is that base pay or total? What are the benefits like?

Has your friend been there a full 3 years already, and is now working on the 4th year? Or is s/he on the 3rd year now?

3rd Year NJA, SIC on the 7&7 = $42,998..... Reserve = $51,030

4th Year NJA, SIC on the 7&7 = $45,147..... Reserve = $53,582

3rd Year NJA, PIC on the 7&7 = $71,250......Reserve = $84,560

4th Year NJA, PIC on the 7&7 = $80,625......Reserve = $95,687

This is base pay, without per diem or OT. NJA pilots have very good medical benefits, including dental and vision. Excellent 401K match and paid vacation---plus, it's all in writing. That said, I agree that the FO pay is still too low, and the domicile system too restrictive. The pilots have made progress but clearly there is more work to be done.

Your above chart will become a bit skewed if/when upgrade at NJA goes to 6-7 years. Aircraft delivery will slow down, despite santulli's projections. I guess then you can work on raising FO rates. Of course, the senior pilots on property will also want more pay. Oy vey....

 

[netjetwife]

3rd Year NJA, PIC on the 7&7 = $71,250......Reserve = $84,560 (18 days a month)

Then we look at the PIC payscale and compare the schedule/days worked. While we wait for more info on benefits and if your friend's pay was total or base, any of the Avantair pilots want to jump in and help with our comparison?

Absolutely, low FO wages become a major problem when the upgrade is longer than 6 months to a year. That's why I am critical of the NJA CBA in that regard and see FO pay as an area needing significant improvement.

I don't think any professional pilot should make less than $50K, especially when so many other workers with far less skill make in the 40s without leaving home or being responsible for lives....

 

[P180puke]

He told me he just started his third year, flew about 6 months as an sic then over a year and a half as a pic. I think that is the major benefit they upgrade faster and get pic pay. The sic wages are low but not the pic wages. I will try to get in touch with him to get more information.

He must be counting per diem, no?

3rd yr. capt. is 64k unless:
1) You count perdiem......not hardly accurate, hell I eat MORE than my perdeim most days.....OR

2) He's kissing the correct arse, which I've heard helps in some cases.

 

[glasspilot]

3rd Year NJA, PIC on the 7&7 = $71,250......Reserve = $84,560 (18 days a month)

Then we look at the PIC payscale and compare the schedule/days worked. While we wait for more info on benefits and if your friend's pay was total or base, any of the Avantair pilots want to jump in and help with our comparison?

Absolutely, low FO wages become a major problem when the upgrade is longer than 6 months to a year. That's why I am critical of the NJA CBA in that regard and see FO pay as an area needing significant improvement.

I don't think any professional pilot should make less than $50K, especially when so many other workers with far less skill make in the 40s without leaving home or being responsible for lives....

Reading the last few posts of yours I have a few questions;

1. Why do you insist on comparing your company to a 3 year old company? Do you go up to 3rd graders and make fun of them cause you can read and they can't yet?

2. Why the 50K benchmark? Did someone tell you that or did you come up with it by yourself? I'm thinking 50K is a totally abstract number that sounds nice to you cause it's around the bottom of your pay scale. Gives you something to shoot for. I bet if the bottom FO at NJ made 80K then you'd magically think 85-90K is the least a professional pilot should make. Go back to my last thread and you'll see my reference to loads of pilots who make MUCH less than your 50K. I know 727 FOs that make 35K. Regional pilots at 17K, 135 pilots at 12K, 121 sup. at 25K, not to mention the THOUSANDS of pilots on furlough. I don't see you yelling at them. Why is avantair so bad that we get all your attention?

3. I'm sure you have a reason for being so interested in your husbands industry but why do we pilots at other companies have to defend ourselves to you? Why don't you go get a hobby or something. I'd bet a slice of pizza that it drives your husband crazy to come home from a week of flying and have to listen to you recap the state of aviation to him. Whatever, he signed up for it when he married you. What did the rest of us do to deserve your meddling?

 

[Kingairrick]

Roflmao

 

[netjetwife]

1) I compare job descriptions, and firmly believe that those doing comparable jobs should make comparable wages.

2) A knowledgeable NJ FO told me that he felt he should make at least $50K as a starting wage, to go up quickly from there. As stated, far too many other workers who possess much less skill make as much or more than a lot of frac pilots. I think that is wrong. Again, having responsibility for lives should count for quite a bit. Regional pilots know that I encourage them to stand up for themselves as well. I fully support those who do, as they know. I talk about the frac industry because those are the wages and working conditions that affect my family and NJ friends.....as well as those who post here that I support in their efforts to raise the bar. I've discussed the situation with many pilots. I guess you've just missed those other conversations. But surely you've seen me cheer on the Options pilots, encourage Flex pilots, and congratulate the CS pilots when they got a pay raise? If I missed anyone, consider my references to frac pilots to include your company...

3) Many see it as support; if you don't please feel free to put me on your ignore list. I discuss the issues in the industry because I'd much rather see pilots pull one another up than have management continue to hold their wages down. One frac company's payscale is measured against another , like it or not. If all the pilots will take a stand against low wages the industry can improve significantly.

 

[SCT]

NutJetWife, once again you show how little you know about aviation and business in general. The more idiotic statements you write the less creditability you have on FI.

How can you compare the pay scales between NJ and AvantAir? One company has 100s of jets and thousands of pilots. And the other is a small start up company flying turboprops. It's apples and oranges, women. Plus, historically flying turboprop a/c has always paid less then jets. Plus, I'm sure AvantAir charges less money then NJ is capable of charging for an entry level jet share. I know in your perfect socialist world, every pilot would be making 250K and live where ever.

NJW, you are clueless.

 

[flylowman]

Netjetwife why do we just start a new thread, "Why Netjetwife wants to tell us that Netjet is better than Avantair." For the people who are here looking for info your continuing ranting and bragging just kills the moment. Hay I have a better idea. Go cook something and shut up!

 

[glasspilot]

deleted and reposted below. why won't they let me delete a post?!?!?!!?

stupid FI.

 

[glasspilot]

2) A knowledgeable NJ FO told me that he felt he should make at least $50K as a starting wage...........

Well you can tell your "knowledgeable NJ FO" that in the real world supply and demand dictate prices and pay. If there were only 1,000 pilots that could do the job today then all of us would market ourselves to the highest bidder and we'd make $500,000 a year to start. In that scenario other people would see how great it is to be a pilot and they'd take lessons and soon there would be hundreds of thousands of pilots all wanting $500,000 to start. But guess what, they wouldn't get that cause now there would be more supply for the same demand. Pilots would start at say...$50,000. And then, in this world of upset pilots and there wives, say there was a disaster that made people want to fly less while the supply of pilots remained the same. Well, pilot pay would go drop again as happens when demand drops and supply stays the same.

The point is that it has nothing to do with how much training you have received, how responsible you are, how professional you are or how much your wife complains. It's economics 101. The pendulum swings and there ain't no stoppin it. Now you and your "knowledgeable NJ FO" can realign your expectations and drop your $50K to start fantasy. Hell, I was on a United jumpseat once and the CA (757) explained to me that a pilot should make a house a year and a car a month. Not a great house or car, but a nice, comfortable house and car. That's just as abstract as your 50K but shows how no matter what you make you always think you should make more.

 

[jonjuan]

While I agree in theory with what NJA wife is attempting to do, I don't agree think she has taken into account the entire picture.
It's great that she is a crusader for standing up for the "little guy" who would otherwise be trampled by those with deepest pockets, i.e. those who make the decisions upstairs. Without a unified voice, those who have the gold, make the rules. It has been the mantra of part 121 pilots for years. For that, I admire her.
One item it appears to me at least, that she is missing, is the fact that this is still a competitive industry in a capitalist society. Small companies certainly can't directly compete head to head with the entrenched 800 pound gorilla. Net Jets is a brand name and is a sales and marketing machine. As it stands today, a rich guy/gal will typically flock to NetJets because they are the CocaCola of the industry. Their name alone means that they can command a premium. They can pass along this premium to their employees. If a new comer or much smaller competitor in the industry with the exact same product attempts to charge the exact same price, do you really think they will be successful, i.e profitable? Me thinks, no way. One companies success is anothers failure. Look at what's happening to the major and regional airline industry. All the companies whose labor unions trumped one another for pay (UAL, DAL), (ACA, Comair).
One way to drive competitors out of business is to lower fares, i.e. WN to AAA and JBLU to everyone in New York. Another way is to drive their costs such that they are unable to compete. If every fractional provider had Net Jets labor costs today, I'd bet that 2 would be out of business within a year. Get rid of your competition and then charge whatever you please. Look at what Southwest Airlines tried to do to AAA in Philly.

Either way, good luck.