What has ALPA done for me lately?

[ualdriver]

Like I said...you're already posturing and trying to "spin" the reason for rolling over on cabotage.

You, Prater, and ALPA could use a lesson in integrity.

I'm not trying to "spin" anything. That's the political/legislative reality we live in as a union. I don't like it, but that's the way it is. If you individually want to live in that black and white world and cast stones from the cheap seats, that's fine. The people that we hire and we elect to conduct business on our behalf unfortunately don't get to enjoy that luxury.

 

[BOOZENEWS]

It's not a matter of trusting them; it's a matter of playing the political game. Big business buys their politicians, and labor/lawyers/etc... buy theirs. Guys like McCain and Guiliani have been bought by the people that oppose our interests. You have a choice of whether to vote for the people that have been bought off by the Air Transport Association, or people that have been bought by labor. My votes are going to the latter. Do I really think that Obama cares about me or anyone else in the labor movement? I really don't know. It's possible, but it really doesn't matter. What matters is that he'll support us because he counts on us for campaign contributions and votes to stay in power. It's just all part of playing the game.

Finally someone who gets it!! We all agree the whole political system is corrupt. However we must use it to our advantage if anything is to be accomplished.

It is kind of like the jerk that all men hate who can attract women like a magnet. Men are so resentful of him that they don't want to associate with him at all. However, if they put they're personal hatred of him aside, they could learn from him how to be attractive to women while at the same time not taking on his negative traits.

 

[jke406]

It is kind of like the jerk that all men hate who can attract women like a magnet. Men are so resentful of him that they don't want to associate with him at all. However, if they put they're personal hatred of him aside, they could learn from him how to be attractive to women while at the same time not taking on his negative traits.

WTF are you talking about? Worst analogy ever. You may have better luck in the MSP men's room.

 

[jke406]

I'm not trying to "spin" anything. That's the political/legislative reality we live in as a union. I don't like it, but that's the way it is. If you individually want to live in that black and white world and cast stones from the cheap seats, that's fine. The people that we hire and we elect to conduct business on our behalf unfortunately don't get to enjoy that luxury.

You say, "I don't like it, but that's the way it is."

How many Germans in the early 1940s said that? My point is, that's a weak, spineless excuse. Have you considered running for congress? You'd fit right in.

I'm sure Prater always has room for another morally ambiguous yes-man such as yourself. Good luck in Washington.

 

[BOOZENEWS]

What got us this contract and Contract '98? In both cases, it wasn't a release.....Flying by the book is far more effective than a strike.....You still get paid.....A pen in the hand of a captain is more effective than even a Democratic NMB....

Gotta agree with that seeing how quickly ASA got a new contract by flying very safely.

 

[ualdriver]

You say, "I don't like it, but that's the way it is."

How many Germans in the early 1940s said that? My point is, that's a weak, spineless excuse. Have you considered running for congress? You'd fit right in.

I'm sure Prater always has room for another morally ambiguous yes-man such as yourself. Good luck in Washington.

OK then. So what you're saying is that ALPA should march up to Congress, plop a list of demands on our favorite Senators' and Congressmens' desk and say, "This is what we want, and we will not compromise on any of these issues." Is that what you're saying? Because if ALPA does anything except that, it's spineless and weak? Correct me where I'm wrong?

At your airline when you negotiate your next contract (and I use the term "negotiate" loosely as apparently in your world there is no negotiation), do you expect your union leaders to drop a list of demands on managements' desk and say, "give us all of this, there will be no compromise." How do you think that will go for your pilot group? What do you think a mediator would have to say about that? I'd guess you'd be screwed!

How about those U.S. Air guys? Did their ALPA reps act in their best interest by saying date of hire or nothing? How did that work out for them? Think they might have gotten a better deal had they backed off their date of hire or nothing "not spineless" position and compromised a little? But hey, at least their MEC guys aren't spineless and weak, right?

And that Germany example is lame. I'm not asking you to make a life or death decision or compromise on someting as important as your religious convictions or your opinion on the death penalty or abortion, for example. We're talking about policitical issues that ALPA leaders deal with every day.

Like I said, it must be nice to live in your little world! Either give jke what he wants, or you're spineless and weak!!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

1- Does it really matter?
2- Let me answer #3 first...What the hell is an ALPA airline? I haven't seen any of our aircraft painted with ALPA on the side. ALPA certainly doesn't pay my paycheck every two weeks. ALPA doesn't supply my health insurance, life insurance, or disablility insurance. I chose to work for the company that I work for because I thought it is a good company with a bright future, not because of which union represents the pilots. Is that why you chose UAL, because they were represented by ALPA
3- Back to number two...why would I quit my job, which I enjoy, to go work somewhere else.

For you to say that "If I don't like ALPA's agency shop that I should change jobs", would be like me saying to you "If you don't like UAL's retirement plan, maybe you should go work for an airline that has a better one?" But perhaps you stay at UAL because you like the current retirement plan.

And then the volunteers of the profession stood up and insisted that should not have to quit and they had the right to make the place better. They demanded respect, worked for positive change and still got kicked in the nuts by their fellow pilots...

next...

it will become "unwinnable" pretty GD quickly with Prater and the current corrupt stooges in charge.

you heard it from UALdriver first...ALPA is already posturing to justify rolling over on cabotage.

ALPA will have to rollover on cabatoge because on May 17 2006 at the rally on the mall in Wash DC only 100 pilots showed up. There simply isn't enough support from the pilots to effect and real change. When a couple of ALPA officers talk to management or gov't without 60,000 pilots behind them, then it is just a fringe agenda....

Were you an ALPA pilot during the 2006 BOD?
If so did you participate in the election of the delegate that went to the BOD as your representative?
Regardless, did you advise your delegate who you thought the right ALPA president was to be elected?



next....

Sorry Rez, I didn't see it. Must not be important enough, otherwise it'd be very obvious.

no problem....
https://crewroom.alpa.org/Default.aspx?tabid=2698

Look, Wall Street says there's over 80% chance that our idiotic Fed will be cutting interest rates this week. What does that do to our dollar? What does that do to our collective value?

ok...but the cabatoge is a comin'

You know something, I'm not that worried about cabotage. We ARE some of the cheapest labor in the world.

Why would you say something like that? Got a reference?

PCL, not to really harp on you, but are you really worried about Russians coming here and flying for half the wages? You know, as much as I hate RJDC and their lawsuit, Joe is right. I see more threat to my job from US ALPA-represented (and non-ALPA) regional airlines than I do from Russian pilots.

Multi Crew License is a scheme generated by the Indians, Chinese and S. Americans to put ab initio pilots with 250 total time into the cockpits of Boeing and Airbus. This of course is how they employ pilots. The MPL scheme is attractive to the West because they can attract pilots to fly Boeings and 'Bus' from college. Talk about Shiney Jet Syndrome!!!

If there are not enough pilots in the US you can bet "those who control the distribution of wealth" will lobby the DOL, DOJ, DHS and Immigration to allow foreigners to leagally fly jets in this country. Your job is their Job.

Take a look at my airline. Part of my airline flies between Hawaiian islands. An ALPA airline (Mesa) came in, and literally destroyed the market with their $19 fares. Yes, $19! Not only that, but they got down to $9. Thanks to them, it costs more to take a cab from HNL to Waikiki than it does to fly from HNL - KOA.

And what will "those who control the distribution of wealth" do when US citizens stop applying/working for Mesa and there is no one here from the USA who will undercut you. They will get their labor.

One simple problem to fix the profession and career problem in this country is to simply pay pilots more. Why won't management do that? should they? If so, why? How? Who's gonna make them...? And if they can... HOW?

Management raising labor cost is akin to french kissing your grandmother.....

Their senior captains are making substantially less than I make as an FO. Should I worry about Russians, or should I worry about my fellow ALPA brothers flying under ridiculously sh*tty contracts?

You want ALPA to stop Mesa from undercutting, but does ALPA have the consensus of the membership to do so? IOW, what does a JFK widebody ALPA pilot think about Mesa undercutting you in HI?

Another question for you:

Do you know how much pilots flying regional airline equipment overseas make? I spoke to a BritAir pilot (one of Air France regional carriers), and let's just say I was pleasantly surprised.

How much does a BA pilot make? Emeritis? JAL? LH?

Trust me, cabotage is the least of my worries.

Agreed. You might retire before it becomes real. But do you want to travel during retirement and not know the difference between a welcome aboard PA and Dell computer call center...???

 

[flygirlqt]

The answer to this thread is fairly simple.

1 They take my dues with no true accountability.

2 I get a magazine.

3 They participated in, against the majority of my peers wishes,to further stagnate my career another 5 years.

 

[MCDU]

Alpa meeting on Wed in Charlotte. There was an individual in the Alpa meeting room that was doing presentations on the advantages of being an Alpa member. One of the Capt (Name Deleted), asked this individual what his role was with Alpa. He replied, Staff Member. We asked, "What do you do as a Staff Member"? He replied, I recruit future members for Alpa. Ok, what do you get paid? $250,000 a year! What? $250,000 a year to recruit future Alpa member and you are a Staff Member? Are you a pilot? No. We'll, that's a lot of money to recruit future Alpa members. What do Alpa secretaries get paid? About $85,000 per year. Really! Our co-pilots do not make $85,000 per year! We'll, replied the Staff Member, we have a good Union. I guess so. We'll, we don't. That's why we are about to get rid of you! Have a nice day!

 

[jke406]

The answer to this thread is fairly simple.

1 They take my dues with no true accountability.

2 I get a magazine.

3 They participated in, against the majority of my peers wishes,to further stagnate my career another 5 years.

Bingo.

 

[Flopgut]

ALPA will have to rollover on cabatoge because on May 17 2006 at the rally on the mall in Wash DC only 100 pilots showed up. There simply isn't enough support from the pilots to effect and real change. When a couple of ALPA officers talk to management or gov't without 60,000 pilots behind them, then it is just a fringe agenda....

That is the worst, old, failed standard for participation/support there is!! That's in the past!! My schedule is soo bad all I can do is fly and rest. That's how it is for us now.

What's going off in your brain that makes this sound like something good?? That you would latch on to this as the standard for support?? ALPA leadership needs to facilitiate representation (if they really want to help), not play "keep away" with policy making.

If ALPA would facilitate the membership's position on cabotage, and represent it without prejudice, we would have a union!! That would mean they would have to acknowledge the representation travesty that age 65 was, but that would be a healthy thing.

 

[jke406]

It's the utter arrogance of folks like Rez O. Lenin that drive pilots away from ALPA.

He berates and belittles his constituents... while lamely claiming their views are counted.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The answer to this thread is fairly simple.

1 They take my dues with no true accountability.

And yet you chose to give it. That might say more about you than ALPA. You give away your money to an organization that you believe has no accountability. Wow. What else do you do?

2 I get a magazine.

3 They participated in, against the majority of my peers wishes,to further stagnate my career another 5 years.

What are you going to do about it? I say rise up and not accept injustice....

Alpa meeting on Wed in Charlotte. There was an individual in the Alpa meeting room that was doing presentations on the advantages of being an Alpa member. One of the Capt (Name Deleted), asked this individual what his role was with Alpa. He replied, Staff Member. We asked, "What do you do as a Staff Member"? He replied, I recruit future members for Alpa. Ok, what do you get paid? $250,000 a year! What? $250,000 a year to recruit future Alpa member and you are a Staff Member? Are you a pilot? No. We'll, that's a lot of money to recruit future Alpa members. What do Alpa secretaries get paid? About $85,000 per year. Really! Our co-pilots do not make $85,000 per year! We'll, replied the Staff Member, we have a good Union. I guess so. We'll, we don't. That's why we are about to get rid of you! Have a nice day!

I call BS. Who is the staffer. All thier names and salary are available in the internet, so let's hear it....

That is the worst, old, failed standard for participation/support there is!! That's in the past!! My schedule is soo bad all I can do is fly and rest. That's how it is for us now.

Wow.... As the most junior CA in domicile and a commuter with family.. only 10 days off a month on reserve I did all the standard member particaption activities and started a committee. I was told I made the place just a little bit better.

The ideal is.... what if everyone made an effort to make it just a bit better.... would we be better off?

What's going off in your brain that makes this sound like something good?? That you would latch on to this as the standard for support?? ALPA leadership needs to facilitiate representation (if they really want to help), not play "keep away" with policy making.

So 2% is enough. If so.... how are things working for us so far? How far is that 2% getting us...

If ALPA would facilitate the membership's position on cabotage, and represent it without prejudice, we would have a union!! That would mean they would have to acknowledge the representation travesty that age 65 was, but that would be a healthy thing.

With only 5% of members bothering to attend LEC meetings, I guess the question is.... what is the memberships position on it?

It's the utter arrogance of folks like Rez O. Lenin that drive pilots away from ALPA.

Its your career... not mine. I say rise up and rattle your leaderships cage...

He berates and belittles his constituents... while lamely claiming their views are counted.

I'd have to be an elected officer to have a constituent.... do you have anything of substence...

 

[MCDU]

http://1.usairlinepilots.org/ALPA_salaries.htm

Check out these salaries. This is were your dues are going while we lose retirement, vacation, salary, scope and now our seniority. Why would any US East pilot want them on their property.

Marty

 

[flygirlqt]

And yet you chose to give it. That might say more about you than ALPA. You give away your money to an organization that you believe has no accountability. Wow. What else do you do?

Complete and total BS! I am forced to fork over these dues because if I don't then I can be terminated. If ALPA actually had to rely on people voluntarily paying their dues based on a level of perceived value they get in return, the union would go broke in no time.

The problem that no matter how lousy, back stabbing, politically correct, palm greasing good old boys club ALPA is, nothing will change. In the end, no matter what, they get their money. They have no reason to change.

What are you going to do about it? I say rise up and not accept injustice....

I agree. There are a lot if grumblings at CAL to replace ALPA and go back independent after this contract. I can assure you I will be very happy to see that happen right now. I'm sick of seeing my dues go into the toilet and for National officer and admin. salaries.

It is a complete and total disgrace.

 

[flygirlqt]

http://1.usairlinepilots.org/ALPA_salaries.htm

Check out these salaries.

Absolutely, patently and completely disgusting.

 

[PCL_128]

Alpa meeting on Wed in Charlotte. There was an individual in the Alpa meeting room that was doing presentations on the advantages of being an Alpa member. One of the Capt (Name Deleted), asked this individual what his role was with Alpa. He replied, Staff Member. We asked, "What do you do as a Staff Member"? He replied, I recruit future members for Alpa. Ok, what do you get paid? $250,000 a year! What? $250,000 a year to recruit future Alpa member and you are a Staff Member? Are you a pilot? No. We'll, that's a lot of money to recruit future Alpa members. What do Alpa secretaries get paid? About $85,000 per year. Really! Our co-pilots do not make $85,000 per year! We'll, replied the Staff Member, we have a good Union. I guess so. We'll, we don't. That's why we are about to get rid of you! Have a nice day!

Complete lie. The senior ALPA staffer that does organizing initiatives (ie. "recruits new members") is a friend of mine, and someone I worked with quite a bit. He's been at ALPA for about 25 years, and still doesn't even make six figures, let alone $250k. ALPA secretaries also don't get paid anywhere close to the $85k that you quote. You guys need to get educated and stop blaming your problems on staffers and volunteers in Herndon.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

Every one of them need to take a 60% pay cut! F-Prater, the traitor.

 

[MCDU]

Complete lie. The senior ALPA staffer that does organizing initiatives (ie. "recruits new members") is a friend of mine, and someone I worked with quite a bit. He's been at ALPA for about 25 years, and still doesn't even make six figures, let alone $250k. ALPA secretaries also don't get paid anywhere close to the $85k that you quote. You guys need to get educated and stop blaming your problems on staffers and volunteers in Herndon.

What is his name, or is that a secret?

 

[flygirlqt]

Prater, the traitor.

I like it!

 

[MCDU]

I like it!

Darth Prater

 

[PCL_128]

What is his name, or is that a secret?

I'm not giving out names on a public message board, especially after just saying how much money they make. What does it matter? The fact of the matter is that the most senior staffer who's job is to recruit new members is making a third of what you claimed this guy was making. Only about a dozen people in the ALPA organization make the $250k that you quoted, and none of them are staffers that recruit new members. They are all attorneys or senior directors. You need to get your facts straight and stop worrying about the compensation of the people that are working their asses off to better this profession while you're playing golf and b--ching on internet message boards.

 

[MCDU]

better my profession. Is that a joke. The last 20 years have been a disaster.

 

[ualdriver]

http://1.usairlinepilots.org/ALPA_salaries.htm

Check out these salaries. This is were your dues are going while we lose retirement, vacation, salary, scope and now our seniority. Why would any US East pilot want them on their property.

Marty

Marty-

I saw your link that referred to the professionals that work for ALPA and their compensation packages. I guess I'm a little confused as to what you're upset about?

For example, we have senior attorneys working for ALPA in the DC area making in the high 200K's, and some higher. What is it that you are upset about? Are you upset that senior attornys in the DC area make in the high 200K's or that ALPA is paying them that much? Should we find the "attorney equivalent" of 250 hr. regional F/O's so we can pay them only 20K/year? Do you think that is wise? If you're upset that senior attorneys are paid that much money, should you be posting that on the attorneyinfo.com board instead of here as we can't control attorney salaries in the DC area?

If you're upset that ALPA is paying that much, what do you suggest ALPA do? Not pay the going rate for attorneys in whatever area we employ them in? Should we get mediocre or poorly qualified attorneys to work for us so that we can save a buck on salaries? For all of the legal work ALPA does in a given year, don't you think it's cheaper to hire staff attorneys than to pay by the hour?

If we're paying too much for whatever job qualification you refer to on that link, do you have a list of the salaries that all of these people "should" be making instead of what ALPA is paying them? Have you done that kind of research? If you have, please post the going rate for every job category in that link so that we can see how much we're overpaying? How much are USAPA attorneys going to be making?

Further, I can't wait to see how much you think the USAPA is going to be paying for the same services our ALPA staff provide? I imagine that since USAPA will start off small (if at all), they're going to have to hire people on a contract basis. Want to bet that's going to get a little "pricey" for you guys? I wonder what the hourly rate is for a well qualified labor attorney is in DC/PHL area? I think the USAPA is about to find out, and they're not going to like the answer.

And another point. You're posting a link with all these high salaries I assume for the "shock" factor. What would you think if the flight attendants and CSR's at US Airways who make FAR less than any of your pilots, posted a list of all the high 6 figure salaries of the pilots at US airways and used that as some sort of "rallying cry" to show how overpaid you are? Certainly the mid to high 6 figure salaries that would be on that list would be enormous to a flight attendant pulling in 20-30K per year. Do you think it would be right for the flight attendants to point to that list and imply that you're overpaid and that cuts in pilot salaries should be made to help the airline? If not, aren't you doing the same thing with that ALPA professional salary list?

But I do appreciate the list. I bookmarked it and will use it as a reference. Every ALPA member should be aware of information such as this.

 

[Flopgut]

Wow.... As the most junior CA in domicile and a commuter with family.. only 10 days off a month on reserve I did all the standard member particaption activities and started a committee. I was told I made the place just a little bit better.

Hold on pal! You said, and I paraphrase only slightly: "ALPA gets to do what they want on cabotage, because only 100 pilots showed up in Washington". There are a lot of pilots getting involved in committees, and interaction with the union is improving. (inc. yours truly. I'm on standby for 1 committee and applying to another) What I'm saying is: To insist personal appearance in large numbers is the single determinate as to what ALPA gets to do with policy is BS!! If you're on reserve or in the bottom of the list at CAL, being able to get to a meeting is a total crapshoot. That doesn't mean ALPA gets to ignore the membership and make stuff up.

I don't know what you're trying to accomplish, do you?? I've asked you before: what would be an adequate percentage of participation? Sure, as close to 100% as possible would be great, but not realistic. Do you have a goal in mind here, or are you attempting to set an expectation that no matter the turnout, the number is inadequate, and ALPA will do as they wish?? Who's side are you on??

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Complete and total BS! I am forced to fork over these dues because if I don't then I can be terminated. If ALPA actually had to rely on people voluntarily paying their dues based on a level of perceived value they get in return, the union would go broke in no time.

Who is forcing you to fork over dues? Is this coercsion? Blackmail? How did you get into this situation? Where you kidnapped?

The problem that no matter how lousy, back stabbing, politically correct, palm greasing good old boys club ALPA is, nothing will change. In the end, no matter what, they get their money. They have no reason to change.

And what about all those ALPA members that keep NOT electing them. Who are these pilots that don't vote and keep letting these back stabbers back in!

I agree. There are a lot if grumblings at CAL to replace ALPA and go back independent after this contract. I can assure you I will be very happy to see that happen right now. I'm sick of seeing my dues go into the toilet and for National officer and admin. salaries.

It is a complete and total disgrace.

Do you think you dues value will increase, remain or decrease if you go back to Indy CAL?

How many ALPA Nat'l Officer salaries does your dues mony pay? (not to put you on the spot... but do you know?)

How is your dues money going in the toilet? In what way?

Hold on pal! You said, and I paraphrase only slightly: "ALPA gets to do what they want on cabotage, because only 100 pilots showed up in Washington". There are a lot of pilots getting involved in committees, and interaction with the union is improving. (inc. yours truly. I'm on standby for 1 committee and applying to another) What I'm saying is: To insist personal appearance in large numbers is the single determinate as to what ALPA gets to do with policy is BS!! If you're on reserve or in the bottom of the list at CAL, being able to get to a meeting is a total crapshoot. That doesn't mean ALPA gets to ignore the membership and make stuff up.

Did Ghandi walk to the seasalts with five people? Did MLKjr speak in Wash DC with a few folks? You may snicker at my using Ghandi and MLKjr, however, it seems to be that ALPA members seem to want action that is of Ghandi/MLKjr caliber..... no?

I don't know what you're trying to accomplish, do you?? I've asked you before: what would be an adequate percentage of participation? Sure, as close to 100% as possible would be great, but not realistic. Do you have a goal in mind here, or are you attempting to set an expectation that no matter the turnout, the number is inadequate, and ALPA will do as they wish?? Who's side are you on??

Let's look at these numbers:

• LEC attendence 5%.
• LEC election 35%
• ALPA-PAC 16%
• Age 60 Survey 39%

I'd say an increase of

LEC attendance 5 to 20% is fair. Still a minority but lets take baby steps.

LEC election... a majority would be nice. How about 50%+1 as a start. Reasonable? (it takes 90 seconds to do internet polling.)

ALPA-PAC.... let's be real here... how about 30%. That is still 1/3... but a double increase...

Age 60 survey... well that ship has sailed... but I am sure another survey will come along... but what do you thing the particaption rate should have been for the age 60 survey?



It all comes down to unity, consensus, particaption and political action. Grassroots movements is what gets the attention of managment and gov't.

We can demand leadership action all day long, but for some reason when our leader(s) draws his/her sword, climbs out of the foxhole and yells charge, the membership doesn't seem too interested..... until that changes we will cavitate.

 

[Flopgut]

Age 60 survey... well that ship has sailed... but I am sure another survey will come along... but what do you thing the particaption rate should have been for the age 60 survey?

Well, I'm glad you brought that up. That "ship didn't sail", it sank! The age 60 survey numbers were satisfactory. Most importantly: The results were consistent. The sequence of events that led to the new rule should be investigated like an accident. We should learn from it and never let that sort of thing happen again. CAL's MEC chair is out today, and this is one of the many reasons why. He didn't give a crap about the membership, he was in it for himself and a small number of other CAL pilots. The actions taken by ALPA leadership regarding age 60 screwed unity and participation.

Here's the deal on showing up somewhere: At any given time, 50% of the membership is in the bottom half of the seniority list. The schedules these pilots work are horrible with no relief in sight. I know this is hard for you, but you're not going to have your "Ghandi" moment, OK? Let's make it easier for members to participate and let's allow thier efforts translate as they intend them to.

 

[Flopgut]

We can demand leadership action all day long, but for some reason when our leader(s) draws his/her sword, climbs out of the foxhole and yells charge, the membership doesn't seem too interested..... until that changes we will cavitate.

Membership doesn't seem interested?? I think the membership is too worried about getting that sword stuffed into their back!!

 

[Occam's Razor]

Pay the people who work for us well?

Screw that!

We demand fair treatment from our employers. Wages, benefits, and work rules that make us loyal employees.

But there's no way we should treat OUR employees that way!

Hypocrisy! It's what's for dinner!

 

[PCL_128]

The age 60 survey numbers were satisfactory.

Why is it satisfactory for far less than half of the members to participate in a simple survey that affects their entire careers?