What has ALPA done for me lately?

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Well, I'm glad you brought that up. That "ship didn't sail", it sank! The age 60 survey numbers were satisfactory. Most importantly: The results were consistent. The sequence of events that led to the new rule should be investigated like an accident.

Who should "investigate?" They or them?

We should learn from it and never let that sort of thing happen again. CAL's MEC chair is out today, and this is one of the many reasons why. He didn't give a crap about the membership, he was in it for himself and a small number of other CAL pilots.

Good. Question. Why was he elected in the first place? Bad judgement on the voters part? Or did he turn to dark side during his tenure?

The actions taken by ALPA leadership regarding age 60 screwed unity and participation.

Agreed. So now what? We all leave the bridge and let the ship sail (or sink in your case) aimlessly?

Here's the deal on showing up somewhere: At any given time, 50% of the membership is in the bottom half of the seniority list. The schedules these pilots work are horrible with no relief in sight.

But why is it when there is a recall or crises then over 50% of the pilots show up? All of a sudden pilots find time?

Like at my HOA... who shows up to a HOA meeting? My 'hood was/is quite nice "all american". Then a pre-teen was shot dead on the street corner. At the next HOA meeting it seemed everyone was there....

Why is that?

And doesn't preventative maintenence make more sense? Isn't it better work under controlled situations than reacting to situations that control you?

So change the oil and brake pads on your terms and schedule before the motor quits and your broken down at 3am in freezing cold wx.

So go to LEC meeting and understand the political environment and avert crises before it happens.

Gee.. isn't that how we fly jets?

I know this is hard for you, but you're not going to have your "Ghandi" moment, OK?

Then we won't have change. We may keep the status quo...but that is it....

1000's of pilots in uniform on the Wash DC mall envokes change...

The more pilots the faster the change.

Let's make it easier for members to participate and let's allow thier efforts translate as they intend them to.

Agreed. How? Because easier particaption is our problem.. not the just the leaders problem. We fix it together....

 

[Flopgut]

Why is it satisfactory for far less than half of the members to participate in a simple survey that affects their entire careers?

The results did not vary. The competeing arguement in favor of what Darth Prater did is not sufficient (or non existent) to explain away the fact that it was a seniority grab.

If that is not satisfactory for you then we should make voting a requirement.

 

[PCL_128]

The results did not vary. The competeing arguement in favor of what Darth Prater did is not sufficient (or non existent) to explain away the fact that it was a seniority grab.


If that is not satisfactory for you then we should make voting a requirement.

I agree that Prater is a POS and acted in an inappropriate manner, but that doesn't excuse the membership for their apathy. I expect more from the members, especially when they want to complain about the results.

 

[Flopgut]

Who should "investigate?" They or them?





Good. Question. Why was he elected in the first place? Bad judgement on the voters part? Or did he turn to dark side during his tenure?





Agreed. So now what? We all leave the bridge and let the ship sail (or sink in your case) aimlessly?



But why is it when there is a recall or crises then over 50% of the pilots show up? All of a sudden pilots find time?

Like at my HOA... who shows up to a HOA meeting? My 'hood was/is quite nice "all american". Then a pre-teen was shot dead on the street corner. At the next HOA meeting it seemed everyone was there....

Why is that?

And doesn't preventative maintenence make more sense? Isn't it better work under controlled situations than reacting to situations that control you?

So change the oil and brake pads on your terms and schedule before the motor quits and your broken down at 3am in freezing cold wx.

So go to LEC meeting and understand the political environment and avert crises before it happens.

Gee.. isn't that how we fly jets?





Then we won't have change. We may keep the status quo...but that is it....

1000's of pilots in uniform on the Wash DC mall envokes change...

The more pilots the faster the change.




Agreed. How? Because easier particaption is our problem.. not the just the leaders problem. We fix it together....

The chain of errors should be investigated no different than an accident.

He was elected because he said the right things. He endeared himself to us. He took advantage of the fact that the membership is crying out for a leader. The membership wants to believe we can look to an aged, experienced, sage pilot who can speak for everybody. But, we're starting to learn, we can't! (That's why 50%+ show up to throw them out!!) This baby boomer generation of pilots are a bunch of empty uniforms. Worthless, in fact. I called TD the other day to tell him I wished I could support him, but his representation was too lopsided. He laughed! he thought it was funny!! He portrayed himself a certain way to get the job, and then switched!! Frankly, I think Prater might have planted him. Well, he's gone, and we're better off without him.

Problem with what you're saying: We don't need any superstars. You want to be a Christ figure and lead everybody a certain [narrow] way, it's not going to work. You want 1000s in uniform to follow you to some exact address?? Forget it! They are going to be in the top half of the list, and they only care about themselves. Let's make voting a requirement. Tell me this: If voting were a requirement of membership in good standing, how would age 60 have gone??

Here is how we fly planes: Everybody is supposed to know their job. You rely FAs, mechs, etc. That they know their job and are trained to a certain standard, is a given. When you find that's not the case, you remove/replace the weak link. That's why more show up when it's time to boot somebody out.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Freight Dog, I agree with you and Joe that we have a problem with our own union airlines fighting over the scraps here in the country already, but that doesn't mean that adding even more competition to the situation won't harm us even more. We already have problems as it is. We don't need to be making them worse by allowing cabotage.

If ALPA can't solve the problem with it's own members "fighting over the scraps".....then it won't be able to stop an external threat....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Multi Crew License is a scheme generated by the Indians, Chinese and S. Americans to put ab initio pilots with 250 total time into the cockpits of Boeing and Airbus. This of course is how they employ pilots. The MPL scheme is attractive to the West because they can attract pilots to fly Boeings and 'Bus' from college. Talk about Shiney Jet Syndrome!!!

If there are not enough pilots in the US you can bet "those who control the distribution of wealth" will lobby the DOL, DOJ, DHS and Immigration to allow foreigners to leagally fly jets in this country. Your job is their Job.


And what will "those who control the distribution of wealth" do when US citizens stop applying/working for Mesa and there is no one here from the USA who will undercut you. They will get their labor.

I agree with you about the MPL....now since we agree on something and you could possibly get me to donate to the PAC to oppose the MPL, why did ALPA not oppose the MPL? ALPA's position is that the MPL "has some merits", and they want to be at the table when the MPL is implemented? Just say NO to the MPL....that would restore some of my faith in ALPA......

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The chain of errors should be investigated no different than an accident.

I agree... but who? A colored ribbon panel. I mean you say it should be done.. but the Hows and implentation are another.... otherwise its just words on a message board... which is fine... but saying is one thing and realistic application is another... so therefore why say it?

He was elected because he said the right things. He endeared himself to us. He took advantage of the fact that the membership is crying out for a leader. The membership wants to believe we can look to an aged, experienced, sage pilot who can speak for everybody. But, we're starting to learn, we can't!

Is that not just good ol' American politics? (not there is anything wrong with that....)

(That's why 50%+ show up to throw them out!!)

How do you know?

This baby boomer generation of pilots are a bunch of empty uniforms. Worthless, in fact. I called TD the other day to tell him I wished I could support him, but his representation was too lopsided. He laughed! he thought it was funny!! He portrayed himself a certain way to get the job, and then switched!! Frankly, I think Prater might have planted him. Well, he's gone, and we're better off without him.

Good. remove the poor performers...

Problem with what you're saying: We don't need any superstars.

I am not asking for superstars... just particapnts in democracy.

You want to be a Christ figure and lead everybody a certain [narrow] way, it's not going to work.

Me? No. heck no. I just want guys to vote in LEC elections and show up to rallys we called upon.

You want 1000s in uniform to follow you to some exact address?? Forget it! They are going to be in the top half of the list, and they only care about themselves.

Seems to me that caring for oneself hasn't done us too well.... what to do?

Let's make voting a requirement.

That would negate democracy and make ALPA Un-American. Not for me. I am for America and free will. You know... freedom!

Tell me this: If voting were a requirement of membership in good standing, how would age 60 have gone??

The membership would have voted to keep it. Congress would have still changed it and ALPA would have NOT been invited to the draft legislation committee.

Here is how we fly planes: Everybody is supposed to know their job. You rely FAs, mechs, etc. That they know their job and are trained to a certain standard, is a given. When you find that's not the case, you remove/replace the weak link. That's why more show up when it's time to boot somebody out.

Agreed. Keep in mind though.. we don't have a "black and white" FOM to follow.

This is grey politics... and everyone has different needs... The number one rule:

We shouldn't pack up marbles and go home when its not going our way... we've got to stay engaged. Otherwise we'll be left with the status quo and that is unacceptable....

 

[ualdriver]

I agree with you about the MPL....now since we agree on something and you could possibly get me to donate to the PAC to oppose the MPL, why did ALPA not oppose the MPL? ALPA's position is that the MPL "has some merits", and they want to be at the table when the MPL is implemented? Just say NO to the MPL....that would restore some of my faith in ALPA......

You guys are going to have to explain to me why I should be pi$$ed about ALPA's not vigorously fighting the MPL programs. Have you guys read about the cost of such a program? It costs about the same, if not more (according to Boeing's/Alteon's numbers that I read in ATW), than some schmuck going to All ATP's and getting his ratings in 6 months. What does it matter if India or Idonesia floods the U.S. with pilots who got their license through a MPL program or through their own version of ALL ATP's? Either way, we're screwed, and we'll have 250 hr pilots flying for 3rd world wages. How can you say you'll contribute ALPA-PAC money to stop the support of the MPL but not cabotage??? Cabotage is a FAR bigger concern of mine.

I hate to sound like a broken record, and I know I'll receive vast criticism for making this statement, but IMO the MPL-type programs are coming whether ALPA likes it or not, whether ALPA opposes it or not. Should ALPA "fight to the death" to oppose the implrementation of MPL-type programs in the U.S. and have the programs implemented anyway or should they try to have some control over how these programs are designed, executed, and implemented?

 

[ualdriver]

And a futher MPL point.......

http://biz.yahoo.com/pz/080130/135197.html

There's a link to a new program that JetBlue is starting with Cape Air, UND, and ERAU. Even if ALPA fights MPL programs "to the death" what's to stop a non-union or non-ALPA airline like JetBlue or Virgin from approaching Alteon and taking pilots directly from a MPL program whether ALPA likes it or not? Shoud we fight to oppose it "to the death" or should we help shape how WE think it should be? Shouldn't we be far more concerned about Indonesian pilots coming to the U.S. and flying RJ Captain for 20K/year?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Ualdriver,

ALPA should have done a better job until now creating tougher barriers to entry into this profession....It's hard to demand 250,000 per year with good schedules for a job that requires so little training to get started.

There is no other profession that allows people to enter with such little training and experience...... Now it looks like you and the other ALPA cheerleaders are rolling over on MPL......That's your perogative, but forgive me then if I don't get all worked up about your cabatoge issue.....

I'll send my PAC money to the NRA and AOPA.....they seem to have better luck in DC......and I agree with them more......

 

[ualdriver]

Ualdriver,

ALPA should have done a better job until now creating tougher barriers to entry into this profession....It's hard to demand 250,000 per year with good schedules for a job that requires so little training to get started.

There is no other profession that allows people to enter with such little training and experience...... Now it looks like you and the other ALPA cheerleaders are rolling over on MPL......That's your perogative, but forgive me then if I don't get all worked up about your cabatoge issue.....

I'll send my PAC money to the NRA and AOPA.....they seem to have better luck in DC......and I agree with them more......

Joe-

I'd disagree with your assessment that one requires "so little training" to become a pilot. In fact, I would say that it takes more training, on average, to become a commercial airline pilot than it does to become an accountant, a nurse, a computer guy (pick a field), etc., etc. Not only do are you basically required to obtain a 4 year degree like any other profession (yes, I realize you don't need a 4 year degree, but realistically it's required to maximize earnings potential), but you're required to spend 10's of thousands more on flight training.

The problem with this profession is that little kids and teenagers don't dream of becoming accountants some day. They dream of becoming pilots (among other things). Our profession, by any practical standard, is a "dream" profession. And because of that, young people are willing to sacrifice more (financially) to obtain the position and earn less while in the profession, then some guy who works as a bean counter in a cubicle in some multi-billion dollar company's mid-rise office complex in the near city suburbs. So pilots are willing to subsidze the costs (personal, financial) of the extra training required to become a pilot. And you're right- the result of the above?........TOO MANY pilots are (were?) willing to sacrifice themselves for the dream job and therefore there are (were?) too many pilots chasing too few jobs.

What do you do about that? Should ALPA make everyone join the union as soon as they get their commercial pilot certificate or forever be excluded from any ALPA job? Then he just goes to JetBlue or Virgin. Would it be legally possible to control the supply of ATP's on the U.S. market? I don't know. If it was possible to restrict the number of pilots in the U.S., would it matter if you're not supporting ALPA's fight against cabotage? A scumbag like Ornstein could just find a nice Indonesian crew to fly a RJ for him, instead of choosing someone from ALPA's restricted pilot supply.

Your points about whipsaw among RJ operators are heard and understood by me, but unfortunately I don't have the luxury of being a "one issue" or "two issue" person when it comes to our profession or the failings of ALPA. Out of all the things that concern me the most, cabotage/foreign ownership/flags of convenience rank up there. The only thing standing between me and those things is my not-so-perfection union (ALPA) and the not-so-perfect ALPA-PAC!

 

[Occam's Razor]

ALPA should have done a better job until now creating tougher barriers to entry into this profession....It's hard to demand 250,000 per year with good schedules for a job that requires so little training to get started.

Word!

Tell me again, Daddy...about how you fought the war.

Did you go on strike to prevent your company from hiring noobs without a logbook crammed with "real" flying experience?

Did you go on strike against ANYTHING you bark about? Or did you just sue?

Let's make it even simpler. Did you even go to all of the meetings you were elected to attend?

 

[Draginass]

ALPA looks like a de-nutted lap dog now.

 

[JT8D]

Ualdriver,

ALPA should have done a better job until now creating tougher barriers to entry into this profession....It's hard to demand 250,000 per year with good schedules for a job that requires so little training to get started.

......

Why?

Pilots aren't Doctors. They aren't curring cancer. Hell they aren't even preventing tooth decay for that matter like a dentist does.

They operate a machine. Just like a Crane Operator, a Heavy equipment operator, and a bus driver.

Get over it. Once the Dc9 is retired my 14 year old could fly all the airplanes in the fleet.

The days of actually having to be a PILOT are over son.

So is the pay.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

The days of actually having to be a PILOT are over son.

So is the pay.

I didn't get that memo

 

[waveflyer]

Why?

Pilots aren't Doctors. They aren't curring cancer. Hell they aren't even preventing tooth decay for that matter like a dentist does.

They operate a machine. Just like a Crane Operator, a Heavy equipment operator, and a bus driver.

Get over it. Once the Dc9 is retired my 14 year old could fly all the airplanes in the fleet.

The days of actually having to be a PILOT are over son.

So is the pay.

F^^^ you. You're clueless if you believe any of that.

 

[flygirlqt]

Who is forcing you to fork over dues? Is this coercsion? Blackmail? How did you get into this situation? Where you kidnapped?

ALPA, under threat of job termination. That is a very simple concept for even a spin master like yourself to understand.

Yes it is coercion and blackmail. ALPA should earn their dues not take them. If that fundamental philosophy was in existence there would be a entirely different response and commitment to the membership

I was kidnapped once in college but there was a bubble bath waiting. Now that I reflect about it, what happened that night is the same thing that ALPA has been doing to us for years.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

Back to Oak Street for him.

Anyway, that attitude is EXACTLY why;

Deregulation happened (arrogant idiots)
McCain hates Pilots (even though his kid is one)
Any President not allowing union self help.
Any President not allowing companies to flourish.
CongressHOMO's from MN wanting all airlines to stay 1 step above failure, so pilot pay will always be low.

Also, the moron stating his job is so easy a 14 year old could do it, is probably the WORST pilot you've ever flown with. I'd bet the guy is scared to fly, and thinks these buttons always work.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

Hey, what's shakin sista??

 

[jke406]

I was kidnapped once in college but there was a bubble bath waiting. .

I'm right there with you on the coercion/blackmail concept...and a complete lack of return on any mandatory dues being paid with zero way to opt out.

...but I'm also intrigued your "bubble bath" incident...