What has ALPA done for me lately?

[JoeMerchant]

What is that in your hand Joe? A knife...? No..looks like a machete.... Joe the Ripper.....

When they hauled off Auburn Callaway he cried out that he was the victim.....

Are you a victim Joe? With that machete in your hand?

No I'm not a victim yet....many others are....my job has continued to get better the past 14 years.....how about everyone else's?

However eventually the same fate will hit us at ASA.....Forgive me if I don't get too worried about being replaced by Branson.....There are too many other union folks undercutting my rates and trying to "capture" flying......

I'll get back to you on the cabotage issue after I get done worrying about Mesa, PCL, Mesaba, CMR, Shuttle America, and Delta taking my job......

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

As long as you blame others for your circumstance you are claiming victim status for yourself..... don't worry Joe.. you are not alone... it seems to be the flavor of the month in our American culture.... problem is... were are years into it...

 

[El Pobre]

El Pobre-

Just out of curiosity:

1) Which airline do you fly for?
2) If you have such a low opinion of ALPA and feel that your dues are being extorted from you, what steps are you personally taking to work for a non-ALPA airline?
3) Why did you choose to work for an ALPA airline in the first place?

1- Does it really matter?
2- Let me answer #3 first...What the hell is an ALPA airline? I haven't seen any of our aircraft painted with ALPA on the side. ALPA certainly doesn't pay my paycheck every two weeks. ALPA doesn't supply my health insurance, life insurance, or disablility insurance. I chose to work for the company that I work for because I thought it is a good company with a bright future, not because of which union represents the pilots. Is that why you chose UAL, because they were represented by ALPA
3- Back to number two...why would I quit my job, which I enjoy, to go work somewhere else.

For you to say that "If I don't like ALPA's agency shop that I should change jobs", would be like me saying to you "If you don't like UAL's retirement plan, maybe you should go work for an airline that has a better one?" But perhaps you stay at UAL because you like the current retirement plan.

 

[ualdriver]

1- Does it really matter?
2- Let me answer #3 first...What the hell is an ALPA airline? I haven't seen any of our aircraft painted with ALPA on the side. ALPA certainly doesn't pay my paycheck every two weeks. ALPA doesn't supply my health insurance, life insurance, or disablility insurance. I chose to work for the company that I work for because I thought it is a good company with a bright future, not because of which union represents the pilots. Is that why you chose UAL, because they were represented by ALPA
3- Back to number two...why would I quit my job, which I enjoy, to go work somewhere else.

For you to say that "If I don't like ALPA's agency shop that I should change jobs", would be like me saying to you "If you don't like UAL's retirement plan, maybe you should go work for an airline that has a better one?" But perhaps you stay at UAL because you like the current retirement plan.

1) Yes it does. I was just wondering what airline you chose to work for. What's the matter with telling us all which airline you work for? I work for United. See, it isn't that hard!

2) An ALPA airline is an airline whose pilots are represented by ALPA. For example, I would consider United Airlines to be an ALPA airline. I would consider JetBlue to not be an ALPA airline.

3) This question relates to the fact that you CHOOSE to work for an ALPA airline, and I bet you chose to work for an ALPA airline because the ALPA negotiated benefits at the time of your initial employment were attractive to you compared to the benefits available at other airlines. Feel free to prove me wrong.

So I ask again:

1) What airline do you work for?
2) If you have such a low opinion of ALPA and feel that your dues are being extorted from you, what steps are you personally taking to work for a non-ALPA airline?
3) Why did you choose to work for an ALPA airline in the first place?

If you are going to come to this forum and choose to debate me, can you give me the facts concerning "where you're coming from" so I can defend and or make a point? If you're unwilling to do that, then why are you here?

 

[jke406]

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised to see a poll where ALPA is going to ask its members if it's better off to fruitlessly "fight to the death" or try to get cabotage/foreign ownership language that favors pilots in any legislation concerning that issue when it becomes unwinnable.

it will become "unwinnable" pretty GD quickly with Prater and the current corrupt stooges in charge.

you heard it from UALdriver first...ALPA is already posturing to justify rolling over on cabotage.

 

[ualdriver]

I disagree. I think you're compartmentalizing the issue to make it seem like cabotage and "flags of convenience" is only a mainline problem. That's pretty arrogant. Your attitude of how our problems and fate are not tied together highlights the problem.

It's a problem for all of us, and if we don't stop this double standard of two ALPAs we are going to get steamrolled.

Oh, and did you "back the PAC" yet this year? Everyone needs to.

I have been backing the PAC for 12 years. Thanks.

I never said it was a mainline only problem. In fact, if you look at the my text that you quoted, I said I was concerned about pilots coming over and flying 70 seat jets for 20K/year. 70 seat jets are regional jets and guys coming over to fly them for a fraction of what any U.S. pilot earns, regional or mainline, is a big problem.

 

[Freight Dog]

On crewroom.alpa.org is a relatively new link... NAM IFLAPA.... NAM = North American region...

Is it a threat.. I think it is...

consider spending a few minutes checking it out and choose for yourself....

Sorry Rez, I didn't see it. Must not be important enough, otherwise it'd be very obvious.

Look, Wall Street says there's over 80% chance that our idiotic Fed will be cutting interest rates this week. What does that do to our dollar? What does that do to our collective value?

You know something, I'm not that worried about cabotage. We ARE some of the cheapest labor in the world.

PCL, not to really harp on you, but are you really worried about Russians coming here and flying for half the wages? You know, as much as I hate RJDC and their lawsuit, Joe is right. I see more threat to my job from US ALPA-represented (and non-ALPA) regional airlines than I do from Russian pilots.

Take a look at my airline. Part of my airline flies between Hawaiian islands. An ALPA airline (Mesa) came in, and literally destroyed the market with their $19 fares. Yes, $19! Not only that, but they got down to $9. Thanks to them, it costs more to take a cab from HNL to Waikiki than it does to fly from HNL - KOA.

Their senior captains are making substantially less than I make as an FO. Should I worry about Russians, or should I worry about my fellow ALPA brothers flying under ridiculously sh*tty contracts?

Another question for you:

Do you know how much pilots flying regional airline equipment overseas make? I spoke to a BritAir pilot (one of Air France regional carriers), and let's just say I was pleasantly surprised.

Trust me, cabotage is the least of my worries.

 

[ualdriver]

it will become "unwinnable" pretty GD quickly with Prater and the current corrupt stooges in charge.

you heard it from UALdriver first...ALPA is already posturing to justify rolling over on cabotage.

Yup, that's exactly what I said. ALPA's posturing to roll over on cabotage. Why don't you do me a favor and not put words in my mouth?

See, the problem with guys like you are that everything is a "black and white" issue. Unfortunatley, in the world of politics, that is not the case. Age 60, in my opinion, is an example of the shades of grey world ALPA operates in.

There are two kinds of fights when you're about to be on the losing side of an issue. The "fight to the death fight" where an organization (like ALPA) can fight a change in legislature, even if they know a change is going to occur anyway. What do you gain from this type of fight? Nothing, but I guess you get to make a point and then clueless guys like you can thump your chest and pretend you're a tough guy while changes get forced down your throat with no input. Maybe you think that's cool or that's the way to duel in the world of politics. Personally I don't.

Then there's the other type of fight. There's the type of fight where you realize a change is going to occur anyway, whether you like it or not, but instead of "fighting to the death" and getting nothing, you realize the fight is lost but you try to get something, anything that you otherwise wouldn't have received if you had continued that aforementioned "fight to the death."

Want a recent example to illustrate my point? IMO, look no further than the U.S. Airways and the America West pilot merger. Wanna bet that if you were a fly on the wall at the U.S. Airways pilot union meetings when they were discussing the direction their negotiating committeee should take concerning the pilot list merge that they were screaming "Date of hire or nothing! Fight to the death!! Date of hire or nothing!!" Their negotiators probably had the pilots' desires etched in to their heads- fight to the death- date of hire or nothing. Instead of realizing that they weren't going to get DOH after the arbitrator made it pretty darn clear they weren't going to get it, they chose to fight to the death on the date of hire issue instead of compromising and most certainly getting a better deal by negotiating with the America West guys. Maybe the U.S. Air guys could have gotten a fence, a better integration- something, anything. But instead they chose to fight to the death on the date of hire issue. Black and white world in their union halls I guess. If I was a U.S. Air guy, I'd be wondering if I had stuck a toe in the shades of grey world if I would have gotten something better than what Nicolau gave me. Hindsight is 20-20, huh?

Now I'll type slowly so you can get my point, but as I have said repeatedly, I think economic globalization is coming whether we like it or not- including foreign ownership and cabotage. I think ALPA should fight these issues extremely vigorously until it becomes a politically unwinnable fight and the change is going to occur anyway no matter how hard we oppose- and I hope that political day NEVER comes. But when/if that day comes, whether it is a week from now or a decade from now, ALPA may need to change from their "fight to the death" attitude to "let's try to get something" that will benefit its pilot constituents if it's likely we're going to lose anyway. That, to me, is a smarter way to fight.

 

[jke406]

yawn.

Like I said...you're already posturing and trying to "spin" the reason for ALPA rolling over on cabotage.

You, Prater, and ALPA could use a lesson in integrity and doing what is right...not what is politically expedient.

but hey, i'll be able to bypass security next year (maybe). Thanks, ALPA!

 

[PCL_128]

Freight Dog, I agree with you and Joe that we have a problem with our own union airlines fighting over the scraps here in the country already, but that doesn't mean that adding even more competition to the situation won't harm us even more. We already have problems as it is. We don't need to be making them worse by allowing cabotage.

 

[ualdriver]

Like I said...you're already posturing and trying to "spin" the reason for rolling over on cabotage.

You, Prater, and ALPA could use a lesson in integrity.

I'm not trying to "spin" anything. That's the political/legislative reality we live in as a union. I don't like it, but that's the way it is. If you individually want to live in that black and white world and cast stones from the cheap seats, that's fine. The people that we hire and we elect to conduct business on our behalf unfortunately don't get to enjoy that luxury.

 

[BOOZENEWS]

It's not a matter of trusting them; it's a matter of playing the political game. Big business buys their politicians, and labor/lawyers/etc... buy theirs. Guys like McCain and Guiliani have been bought by the people that oppose our interests. You have a choice of whether to vote for the people that have been bought off by the Air Transport Association, or people that have been bought by labor. My votes are going to the latter. Do I really think that Obama cares about me or anyone else in the labor movement? I really don't know. It's possible, but it really doesn't matter. What matters is that he'll support us because he counts on us for campaign contributions and votes to stay in power. It's just all part of playing the game.

Finally someone who gets it!! We all agree the whole political system is corrupt. However we must use it to our advantage if anything is to be accomplished.

It is kind of like the jerk that all men hate who can attract women like a magnet. Men are so resentful of him that they don't want to associate with him at all. However, if they put they're personal hatred of him aside, they could learn from him how to be attractive to women while at the same time not taking on his negative traits.

 

[jke406]

It is kind of like the jerk that all men hate who can attract women like a magnet. Men are so resentful of him that they don't want to associate with him at all. However, if they put they're personal hatred of him aside, they could learn from him how to be attractive to women while at the same time not taking on his negative traits.

WTF are you talking about? Worst analogy ever. You may have better luck in the MSP men's room.

 

[jke406]

I'm not trying to "spin" anything. That's the political/legislative reality we live in as a union. I don't like it, but that's the way it is. If you individually want to live in that black and white world and cast stones from the cheap seats, that's fine. The people that we hire and we elect to conduct business on our behalf unfortunately don't get to enjoy that luxury.

You say, "I don't like it, but that's the way it is."

How many Germans in the early 1940s said that? My point is, that's a weak, spineless excuse. Have you considered running for congress? You'd fit right in.

I'm sure Prater always has room for another morally ambiguous yes-man such as yourself. Good luck in Washington.

 

[BOOZENEWS]

What got us this contract and Contract '98? In both cases, it wasn't a release.....Flying by the book is far more effective than a strike.....You still get paid.....A pen in the hand of a captain is more effective than even a Democratic NMB....

Gotta agree with that seeing how quickly ASA got a new contract by flying very safely.

 

[ualdriver]

You say, "I don't like it, but that's the way it is."

How many Germans in the early 1940s said that? My point is, that's a weak, spineless excuse. Have you considered running for congress? You'd fit right in.

I'm sure Prater always has room for another morally ambiguous yes-man such as yourself. Good luck in Washington.

OK then. So what you're saying is that ALPA should march up to Congress, plop a list of demands on our favorite Senators' and Congressmens' desk and say, "This is what we want, and we will not compromise on any of these issues." Is that what you're saying? Because if ALPA does anything except that, it's spineless and weak? Correct me where I'm wrong?

At your airline when you negotiate your next contract (and I use the term "negotiate" loosely as apparently in your world there is no negotiation), do you expect your union leaders to drop a list of demands on managements' desk and say, "give us all of this, there will be no compromise." How do you think that will go for your pilot group? What do you think a mediator would have to say about that? I'd guess you'd be screwed!

How about those U.S. Air guys? Did their ALPA reps act in their best interest by saying date of hire or nothing? How did that work out for them? Think they might have gotten a better deal had they backed off their date of hire or nothing "not spineless" position and compromised a little? But hey, at least their MEC guys aren't spineless and weak, right?

And that Germany example is lame. I'm not asking you to make a life or death decision or compromise on someting as important as your religious convictions or your opinion on the death penalty or abortion, for example. We're talking about policitical issues that ALPA leaders deal with every day.

Like I said, it must be nice to live in your little world! Either give jke what he wants, or you're spineless and weak!!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

1- Does it really matter?
2- Let me answer #3 first...What the hell is an ALPA airline? I haven't seen any of our aircraft painted with ALPA on the side. ALPA certainly doesn't pay my paycheck every two weeks. ALPA doesn't supply my health insurance, life insurance, or disablility insurance. I chose to work for the company that I work for because I thought it is a good company with a bright future, not because of which union represents the pilots. Is that why you chose UAL, because they were represented by ALPA
3- Back to number two...why would I quit my job, which I enjoy, to go work somewhere else.

For you to say that "If I don't like ALPA's agency shop that I should change jobs", would be like me saying to you "If you don't like UAL's retirement plan, maybe you should go work for an airline that has a better one?" But perhaps you stay at UAL because you like the current retirement plan.

And then the volunteers of the profession stood up and insisted that should not have to quit and they had the right to make the place better. They demanded respect, worked for positive change and still got kicked in the nuts by their fellow pilots...

next...

it will become "unwinnable" pretty GD quickly with Prater and the current corrupt stooges in charge.

you heard it from UALdriver first...ALPA is already posturing to justify rolling over on cabotage.

ALPA will have to rollover on cabatoge because on May 17 2006 at the rally on the mall in Wash DC only 100 pilots showed up. There simply isn't enough support from the pilots to effect and real change. When a couple of ALPA officers talk to management or gov't without 60,000 pilots behind them, then it is just a fringe agenda....

Were you an ALPA pilot during the 2006 BOD?
If so did you participate in the election of the delegate that went to the BOD as your representative?
Regardless, did you advise your delegate who you thought the right ALPA president was to be elected?



next....

Sorry Rez, I didn't see it. Must not be important enough, otherwise it'd be very obvious.

no problem....
https://crewroom.alpa.org/Default.aspx?tabid=2698

Look, Wall Street says there's over 80% chance that our idiotic Fed will be cutting interest rates this week. What does that do to our dollar? What does that do to our collective value?

ok...but the cabatoge is a comin'

You know something, I'm not that worried about cabotage. We ARE some of the cheapest labor in the world.

Why would you say something like that? Got a reference?

PCL, not to really harp on you, but are you really worried about Russians coming here and flying for half the wages? You know, as much as I hate RJDC and their lawsuit, Joe is right. I see more threat to my job from US ALPA-represented (and non-ALPA) regional airlines than I do from Russian pilots.

Multi Crew License is a scheme generated by the Indians, Chinese and S. Americans to put ab initio pilots with 250 total time into the cockpits of Boeing and Airbus. This of course is how they employ pilots. The MPL scheme is attractive to the West because they can attract pilots to fly Boeings and 'Bus' from college. Talk about Shiney Jet Syndrome!!!

If there are not enough pilots in the US you can bet "those who control the distribution of wealth" will lobby the DOL, DOJ, DHS and Immigration to allow foreigners to leagally fly jets in this country. Your job is their Job.

Take a look at my airline. Part of my airline flies between Hawaiian islands. An ALPA airline (Mesa) came in, and literally destroyed the market with their $19 fares. Yes, $19! Not only that, but they got down to $9. Thanks to them, it costs more to take a cab from HNL to Waikiki than it does to fly from HNL - KOA.

And what will "those who control the distribution of wealth" do when US citizens stop applying/working for Mesa and there is no one here from the USA who will undercut you. They will get their labor.

One simple problem to fix the profession and career problem in this country is to simply pay pilots more. Why won't management do that? should they? If so, why? How? Who's gonna make them...? And if they can... HOW?

Management raising labor cost is akin to french kissing your grandmother.....

Their senior captains are making substantially less than I make as an FO. Should I worry about Russians, or should I worry about my fellow ALPA brothers flying under ridiculously sh*tty contracts?

You want ALPA to stop Mesa from undercutting, but does ALPA have the consensus of the membership to do so? IOW, what does a JFK widebody ALPA pilot think about Mesa undercutting you in HI?

Another question for you:

Do you know how much pilots flying regional airline equipment overseas make? I spoke to a BritAir pilot (one of Air France regional carriers), and let's just say I was pleasantly surprised.

How much does a BA pilot make? Emeritis? JAL? LH?

Trust me, cabotage is the least of my worries.

Agreed. You might retire before it becomes real. But do you want to travel during retirement and not know the difference between a welcome aboard PA and Dell computer call center...???

 

[flygirlqt]

The answer to this thread is fairly simple.

1 They take my dues with no true accountability.

2 I get a magazine.

3 They participated in, against the majority of my peers wishes,to further stagnate my career another 5 years.

 

[MCDU]

Alpa meeting on Wed in Charlotte. There was an individual in the Alpa meeting room that was doing presentations on the advantages of being an Alpa member. One of the Capt (Name Deleted), asked this individual what his role was with Alpa. He replied, Staff Member. We asked, "What do you do as a Staff Member"? He replied, I recruit future members for Alpa. Ok, what do you get paid? $250,000 a year! What? $250,000 a year to recruit future Alpa member and you are a Staff Member? Are you a pilot? No. We'll, that's a lot of money to recruit future Alpa members. What do Alpa secretaries get paid? About $85,000 per year. Really! Our co-pilots do not make $85,000 per year! We'll, replied the Staff Member, we have a good Union. I guess so. We'll, we don't. That's why we are about to get rid of you! Have a nice day!

 

[jke406]

The answer to this thread is fairly simple.

1 They take my dues with no true accountability.

2 I get a magazine.

3 They participated in, against the majority of my peers wishes,to further stagnate my career another 5 years.

Bingo.