What do you think will happen to ASA?

[Tarzan]

Well said VeeOne. It is too bad that guys are blinded by the fact that management makes good on threats nowadays.

 

[wms]

.....

 

[wms]

.....

 

[Oakum_Boy]

It wouldn't really be a shame if ASA kicked the bucket. It has been dying a painful and gory death since it was born.

 

[79%N1]

Oh really....so the loss of all the jobs of the people who work there, and need to pay their mortgages and put food on the table wouldn't be a shame? What an a$$inine statement that is! Maybe we can all come and live with you.........

 

[~~~^~~~]

Your management team is on record (as of the last negotiating session) as saying, "There is not enough money left on the table to buy scope."

How do you propose we fix that?

Then our course is set.

Without scope, we are finished. No binding scope means no binding contract. The alternative is underbidding SkyWest guys. Then when they take concessions, underbidding them again in a vicious cycle that undermines our profession.

Folks like me can wish that we would have made scope a priority early - when Skip Barnette would have agreed instantly and we could have obtained excellent merger and fragmentation language - but regrets and missed opportunities will do us no good now.

All of us at this airline need to make priority #1 getting another job. Unless your version of "another job" is near the bottom of SkyWest's seniority list and taking commands from a 26 year old Captain with 18 months of longevity THEN you need to consider Delta, UPS, Flex, Net, Citation Shares, Emirates, anything to avoid being flat out of an airplane and non current when 1,500 pilots hit the street looking for work.

Our mission on Flight Info & the Coconut Telegraph needs to be focused on friends helping friends get hired. Once we strike and shut this place down (which is the honorable thing to do) we become pariahs. Delta did not hire a single Eastern striker that I know of.

 

[Texx]

However, if we go bust and are liquidated,...

And how would this happen?

If ASA was really trying to save money why did they promote AD when they eliminated the ramp in ATL? You see it's just like when Skip was at ASA. Load up on upper management and do the cutting below.

Just remember, the first to go are the ones on the bottom of the list.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Wow. You know, I used to more or less see eye to eye with you, but your recent 180 has grown most tiresome. I am far from the most militant union guy on property, and I have never been a "burn it down" person, but I can't even begin to align myself to your newfound point of view.

If we are, in fact, doomed as you say, then our negotiations are meaningless. If we cave on everything and work for less than SKW, we still lose. According to you, an evil alliance of the Republicans, the LDS, the ghost of Joseph Smith, Moroni, the NMB, and quite possibly Kim Jong Il and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad have conspired to seal the fate of ASA.

If, in fact, we are done for, then why the rhetoric? Game over, remember? After all, nothing we do at this point will save us. You're wasting your time by closing the proverbial barn door behind the horse.

Or....

We can consider the fact that Jerry is and always has been a very good businessman. He's in the business to making money for his shareholders. By your recent comments, you obviously have no idea what the negotiating committee has been asking for as of late. Aircraft transfers, as previously demonstrated, cost about 100k a piece. Nothing the negotiating committee is asking for.... really asking for... costs anywhere near that amount.

Atkin and company are not going to squander shareholders' dollars in a money-losing attempt to break a union. There will be no aircraft transfer, as the last transfer was not received by the people who ultimately control the purse strings.

You are content to portray yourself as a wise oldtimer who has seen it all and can no longer find the heart to support the MEC and the negotiating committee because you feel they don't have the best interests of the pilot group at heart. In reality you are a weak man who was more than willing to support one position for four plus years and then change directions overnight. You lack conviction, and you are not confident enough to support the beliefs you have long held in the face of a little adversity.

You, sir, are not a voice of reason. You are nothing more than a coward.

Thanks for your OPINION, FWIW. I'm sure you won a lot of hearts and minds with that drivelous diatribe.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Then our course is set.

Without scope, we are finished. No binding scope means no binding contract. The alternative is underbidding SkyWest guys. Then when they take concessions, underbidding them again in a vicious cycle that undermines our profession.

Folks like me can wish that we would have made scope a priority early - when Skip Barnette would have agreed instantly and we could have obtained excellent merger and fragmentation language - but regrets and missed opportunities will do us no good now.

All of us at this airline need to make priority #1 getting another job. Unless your version of "another job" is near the bottom of SkyWest's seniority list and taking commands from a 26 year old Captain with 18 months of longevity THEN you need to consider Delta, UPS, Flex, Net, Citation Shares, Emirates, anything to avoid being flat out of an airplane and non current when 1,500 pilots hit the street looking for work.

Our mission on Flight Info & the Coconut Telegraph needs to be focused on friends helping friends get hired. Once we strike and shut this place down (which is the honorable thing to do) we become pariahs. Delta did not hire a single Eastern striker that I know of.

Well said Fins.

Those that advocate the will of "flip 'em off Former FreightDog" are chasing the windmill of lost opportunities, and living in a fantasy world. I prefer to live in the present, and when I see ASA becoming dismantled under our feet, yes, I'll change my opinion 180 degrees and call for a new approach. Some drink in the chest thumping rhetoric and refuse to do that.

You will never convince them. The "silent majority" needs to become vocal!

 

[wms]

Your management team is on record (as of the last negotiating session) as saying, "There is not enough money left on the table to buy scope."

How do you propose we fix that?

What would you expect them to say? We're in negotiations! They don't want to risk the future of ASA any more than we, so we should all work together to preserve the company. But that doesn't mean settliing for less than we're worth when we work for the most profitable regional in the industry. That would be a disgrace. We cannot hold up our heads without SKYW 50-seat rates with COLA, current 70-seat rates with COLA, 100% retro and rigs. They can afford it and will pay it if we negotiate it. Our planes have not been tranferred because of operating costs, they've been transferred because of negotiations. There's a difference. If we weren't in negotiations we would not have lost anything, even if we're a little more expensive.

 

[79%N1]

Me poundum chest. Me burn down! (Insert Tim Allen monkeu grunting here)

 

[jegermeister]

What would you expect them to say? We're in negotiations! They don't want to risk the future of ASA any more than we, so we should all work together to preserve the company. But that doesn't mean settliing for less than we're worth when we work for the most profitable regional in the industry. That would be a disgrace. .

This argument may have been true at one time. But there has been a paradigm shift with this contract since it started. We like Comair (at one time) had some leverage when these negotiations started. To think that we have any control over what Delta/Jerry is going to do with ASA is absurd. I said this long ago that we need to throw down an olive branch. It's the only thing that may sway them from doing something more costly. Otherwise we will get much smaller. Don't believe it. Ask a an Allegheny, Peidmont, Mesaba, CC Air, Comair guy how well the the hard line has helped them. On the other hand ask how their counter parts at Mesa, PSA, and Chitaco have done. I don't blame the latter. Just the lack of leadership at ALPA national.

As far as the new hires and upgrades, it means only one thing. That the company has short term staffing requirements.

 

[601Pilot]

What would you expect them to say? We're in negotiations! They don't want to risk the future of ASA any more than we, so we should all work together to preserve the company. But that doesn't mean settliing for less than we're worth when we work for the most profitable regional in the industry. That would be a disgrace. We cannot hold up our heads without SKYW 50-seat rates with COLA, current 70-seat rates with COLA, 100% retro and rigs. They can afford it and will pay it if we negotiate it. Our planes have not been tranferred because of operating costs, they've been transferred because of negotiations. There's a difference. If we weren't in negotiations we would not have lost anything, even if we're a little more expensive.

I completely agree! You can see the people with no stomach for a fight starting to change their minds and fall in place with JA, just like he wants. I sure hope someone prints this stuff out and lets JA and BL read it so they get a good laugh during the week.

 

[wms]

I'm no chest-pounder, and in my position it's possible I may never go to another airline. But negotiations are full of tough talk from both sides of the table. I'm not going to be intimidated by rhetoric, especially when that rhetoric goes against what would be good business sense on the part of the company. And if in fact the company would rather do the illogical and inflict pain on itself by putting us out of business and out of a job, then I'll be forced to move on. But I'm not going to be taken advantage of in either case. It's a matter of principle (which there is very little of any more), and I have enough spine to stand on my principles.

 

[wms]

This argument may have been true at one time. But there has been a paradigm shift with this contract since it started. We like Comair (at one time) had some leverage when these negotiations started. To think that we have any control over what Delta/Jerry is going to do with ASA is absurd. I said this long ago that we need to throw down an olive branch. It's the only thing that may sway them from doing something more costly. Otherwise we will get much smaller. Don't believe it. Ask a an Allegheny, Peidmont, Mesaba, CC Air, Comair guy how well the the hard line has helped them. On the other hand ask how their counter parts at Mesa, PSA, and Chitaco have done. I don't blame the latter. Just the lack of leadership at ALPA national.

As far as the new hires and upgrades, it means only one thing. That the company has short term staffing requirements.

Why are you willing to walk through the airport feeling like a Mesa, CHQ pilot? Even they don't like to. I jumpseat on them and most regret the position they are in and are willing to change their situations. OH caved a number of times and until the recent announcement it always resulted in more pain. Xjet on the other hand held firm, and even though there was retribution, they will do well.

 

[79%N1]

You can have all the spine in the world, but some people lack the insight to how the airlines, specifically the fee for departure regionals work in this day and age. Delta/Skywest is beating us in this game. 3 years ago, ASA was the big dog in ATL, owning that airport and pretty much owned DFW too. Well, bye bye DFW. That weakened our position. Now, look around ATL. We are so diluted there it is insane, and getting worse. Mesa and Pinnacle will soon be added to the already diluted mix of DCI carriers with more 900's. Do you think these will be replacing Delta mainline routes like years past. No. They will not. They will be replacing 50 seat routes flown by ASA. We are being beaten in this game. We need a paradigm shift, and fast. We should have, long ago, agreed to rates comparable to Skywest (higher on the 50), CHQ/REP, and Comair, taken our massive gains in work rules/QOL/scheduling.....accepted some sort of bonus plan to enhance our w2's and moved the heck on. Maybe in exchange, we could have done a 3 year deal, to see where these other carriers will be in 3 years. Let them suffer some pain and wrath at the hands of momma D! But, we are also guilty of dragging this out with many unreasonable expectations. The worst arguement I hear is about profitability. We are only profitable in the realm of what Delta gives us to fly, and our financial terms in our contract with Delta!!!! If they eliminate us, and replace us with Sandpiper Air.....they will have the same profitability, maybe better if they can manage out of a wet-paper bag! Skywest and Delta are looking out for themselves, their shareholders and their customer. Not ASA pilots. We got caught up in the wrong game at the wrong time. There are people on this board who are trying to show the hard-liners, or the unaware the consequenses of this game we are losing. If many of you want to fly an ever shrinking fleet of old 50 seaters while we lose out and other carriers gain, great for you. Many of you will be in line at those carriers as a last resort when you finally lose your job at ASA. Sure, some will find that awesome pt 91 job, or change it up and start anew at a frac. Some may get lucky enought to get on at Southwest, JetBlue, Continental or Delta. What about the rest? $19/hr at Skywest or Republic. How does that sound?

We need to get reasonable. The game has changed. We need to realise we need to take industry standard rates, rigs, etc...We may not get a hugh retro. But, we will see our QOL increase and get some job security. My only gripe with the company's proposal is the lack of cola increases. We can agree on something reasonable there, maybe by giving a side letter on PBS, get a nice bonus plan based on profits, agree in the middle on duty rigs and min day and have this done. We will be industry leading on 700/900 pay, ave. on the 50 seater and remain a player in the game.

Flame away. (But I'm right)

 

[Speedtape]

This argument may have been true at one time. But there has been a paradigm shift with this contract since it started. We like Comair (at one time) had some leverage when these negotiations started. To think that we have any control over what Delta/Jerry is going to do with ASA is absurd. I said this long ago that we need to throw down an olive branch. It's the only thing that may sway them from doing something more costly. Otherwise we will get much smaller. Don't believe it. Ask a an Allegheny, Peidmont, Mesaba, CC Air, Comair guy how well the the hard line has helped them. On the other hand ask how their counter parts at Mesa, PSA, and Chitaco have done. I don't blame the latter. Just the lack of leadership at ALPA national.

As far as the new hires and upgrades, it means only one thing. That the company has short term staffing requirements.

You need to get a new perspective. Next time in the cockpit, take a wiff of that 100% oygen from the mask. It might improve your speculation skills!

Read the latest from the REAL S.H. on the company website. Apparently, the company is about to spend some money and run adds in major pilot communications soliciting pilots. It projects the hiring of 500 (yes, 500) pilots in 2007. Does this sound like the actions of a company that is going out of business??????????????? We have not lost 500 pilots to attrition.

 

[JoeMerchant]

You need to get a new perspective. Next time in the cockpit, take a wiff of that 100% oygen from the mask. It might improve your speculation skills!

Read the latest from the REAL S.H. on the company website. Apparently, the company is about to spend some money and run adds in major pilot communications soliciting pilots. It projects the hiring of 500 (yes, 500) pilots in 2007. Does this sound like the actions of a company that is going out of business??????????????? We have not lost 500 pilots to attrition.

Speedtripe,

Do you honestly believe that the ASA G.O. is part of the decision making process? They are along for the ride just as much as the ASA pilots are. The long term plans for ASA are not made in the ASA G.O. They will be made by Delta and then by SGU.... Maybe you should take a hit of that O2...

 

[79%N1]

They have already hired more than half of those for this year (07). I'm not so sure he's not that far off. And when Delta decides to replace old 50's flown in ATL by ASA with new 900's....who do you suppose will get them? ASA? I don't think so. Looks like more for Skywest, Mesa and Pinnacle. The dumbest response I hear to that.......'So what, let them have them!'

 

[sweptback]

All of you guys talking about how the CRJ 200s will be replaced one-for-one with CRJ 900s... I have news for you. They can't.

There is a scope limit of the amount of 76-seat airplanes. I'm sure a Delta pilot can correct me, but it was 30 airplanes initially, with a 3-to-1 ratio for every additional mainline airplane on property. Delta has pretty much awarded every 900 that they have the ability to, as they only have a handful of mainline deliveries scheduled.

I also believe that there is a 200 aircraft limit of the combined total of 70- and 76-seat class airplanes. There are more than 200 50-seat airplanes flying around. So, there will still be a need for 50-seat airplanes. Now, do I believe that the 50-seat market is dead? Yes. Old Comair birds are already being sent to the desert, and it won't be too long before ship 820 has reached its design life. Will there be a new design replacement for these airplanes? I have no idea. But I wouldn't worry about the 900 replacement issue, as Delta can only operate so many of these types of airplanes.