What do you think will happen to ASA?

[79%N1]

Me poundum chest. Me burn down! (Insert Tim Allen monkeu grunting here)

 

[jegermeister]

What would you expect them to say? We're in negotiations! They don't want to risk the future of ASA any more than we, so we should all work together to preserve the company. But that doesn't mean settliing for less than we're worth when we work for the most profitable regional in the industry. That would be a disgrace. .

This argument may have been true at one time. But there has been a paradigm shift with this contract since it started. We like Comair (at one time) had some leverage when these negotiations started. To think that we have any control over what Delta/Jerry is going to do with ASA is absurd. I said this long ago that we need to throw down an olive branch. It's the only thing that may sway them from doing something more costly. Otherwise we will get much smaller. Don't believe it. Ask a an Allegheny, Peidmont, Mesaba, CC Air, Comair guy how well the the hard line has helped them. On the other hand ask how their counter parts at Mesa, PSA, and Chitaco have done. I don't blame the latter. Just the lack of leadership at ALPA national.

As far as the new hires and upgrades, it means only one thing. That the company has short term staffing requirements.

 

[601Pilot]

What would you expect them to say? We're in negotiations! They don't want to risk the future of ASA any more than we, so we should all work together to preserve the company. But that doesn't mean settliing for less than we're worth when we work for the most profitable regional in the industry. That would be a disgrace. We cannot hold up our heads without SKYW 50-seat rates with COLA, current 70-seat rates with COLA, 100% retro and rigs. They can afford it and will pay it if we negotiate it. Our planes have not been tranferred because of operating costs, they've been transferred because of negotiations. There's a difference. If we weren't in negotiations we would not have lost anything, even if we're a little more expensive.

I completely agree! You can see the people with no stomach for a fight starting to change their minds and fall in place with JA, just like he wants. I sure hope someone prints this stuff out and lets JA and BL read it so they get a good laugh during the week.

 

[wms]

I'm no chest-pounder, and in my position it's possible I may never go to another airline. But negotiations are full of tough talk from both sides of the table. I'm not going to be intimidated by rhetoric, especially when that rhetoric goes against what would be good business sense on the part of the company. And if in fact the company would rather do the illogical and inflict pain on itself by putting us out of business and out of a job, then I'll be forced to move on. But I'm not going to be taken advantage of in either case. It's a matter of principle (which there is very little of any more), and I have enough spine to stand on my principles.

 

[wms]

This argument may have been true at one time. But there has been a paradigm shift with this contract since it started. We like Comair (at one time) had some leverage when these negotiations started. To think that we have any control over what Delta/Jerry is going to do with ASA is absurd. I said this long ago that we need to throw down an olive branch. It's the only thing that may sway them from doing something more costly. Otherwise we will get much smaller. Don't believe it. Ask a an Allegheny, Peidmont, Mesaba, CC Air, Comair guy how well the the hard line has helped them. On the other hand ask how their counter parts at Mesa, PSA, and Chitaco have done. I don't blame the latter. Just the lack of leadership at ALPA national.

As far as the new hires and upgrades, it means only one thing. That the company has short term staffing requirements.

Why are you willing to walk through the airport feeling like a Mesa, CHQ pilot? Even they don't like to. I jumpseat on them and most regret the position they are in and are willing to change their situations. OH caved a number of times and until the recent announcement it always resulted in more pain. Xjet on the other hand held firm, and even though there was retribution, they will do well.

 

[79%N1]

You can have all the spine in the world, but some people lack the insight to how the airlines, specifically the fee for departure regionals work in this day and age. Delta/Skywest is beating us in this game. 3 years ago, ASA was the big dog in ATL, owning that airport and pretty much owned DFW too. Well, bye bye DFW. That weakened our position. Now, look around ATL. We are so diluted there it is insane, and getting worse. Mesa and Pinnacle will soon be added to the already diluted mix of DCI carriers with more 900's. Do you think these will be replacing Delta mainline routes like years past. No. They will not. They will be replacing 50 seat routes flown by ASA. We are being beaten in this game. We need a paradigm shift, and fast. We should have, long ago, agreed to rates comparable to Skywest (higher on the 50), CHQ/REP, and Comair, taken our massive gains in work rules/QOL/scheduling.....accepted some sort of bonus plan to enhance our w2's and moved the heck on. Maybe in exchange, we could have done a 3 year deal, to see where these other carriers will be in 3 years. Let them suffer some pain and wrath at the hands of momma D! But, we are also guilty of dragging this out with many unreasonable expectations. The worst arguement I hear is about profitability. We are only profitable in the realm of what Delta gives us to fly, and our financial terms in our contract with Delta!!!! If they eliminate us, and replace us with Sandpiper Air.....they will have the same profitability, maybe better if they can manage out of a wet-paper bag! Skywest and Delta are looking out for themselves, their shareholders and their customer. Not ASA pilots. We got caught up in the wrong game at the wrong time. There are people on this board who are trying to show the hard-liners, or the unaware the consequenses of this game we are losing. If many of you want to fly an ever shrinking fleet of old 50 seaters while we lose out and other carriers gain, great for you. Many of you will be in line at those carriers as a last resort when you finally lose your job at ASA. Sure, some will find that awesome pt 91 job, or change it up and start anew at a frac. Some may get lucky enought to get on at Southwest, JetBlue, Continental or Delta. What about the rest? $19/hr at Skywest or Republic. How does that sound?

We need to get reasonable. The game has changed. We need to realise we need to take industry standard rates, rigs, etc...We may not get a hugh retro. But, we will see our QOL increase and get some job security. My only gripe with the company's proposal is the lack of cola increases. We can agree on something reasonable there, maybe by giving a side letter on PBS, get a nice bonus plan based on profits, agree in the middle on duty rigs and min day and have this done. We will be industry leading on 700/900 pay, ave. on the 50 seater and remain a player in the game.

Flame away. (But I'm right)

 

[Speedtape]

This argument may have been true at one time. But there has been a paradigm shift with this contract since it started. We like Comair (at one time) had some leverage when these negotiations started. To think that we have any control over what Delta/Jerry is going to do with ASA is absurd. I said this long ago that we need to throw down an olive branch. It's the only thing that may sway them from doing something more costly. Otherwise we will get much smaller. Don't believe it. Ask a an Allegheny, Peidmont, Mesaba, CC Air, Comair guy how well the the hard line has helped them. On the other hand ask how their counter parts at Mesa, PSA, and Chitaco have done. I don't blame the latter. Just the lack of leadership at ALPA national.

As far as the new hires and upgrades, it means only one thing. That the company has short term staffing requirements.

You need to get a new perspective. Next time in the cockpit, take a wiff of that 100% oygen from the mask. It might improve your speculation skills!

Read the latest from the REAL S.H. on the company website. Apparently, the company is about to spend some money and run adds in major pilot communications soliciting pilots. It projects the hiring of 500 (yes, 500) pilots in 2007. Does this sound like the actions of a company that is going out of business??????????????? We have not lost 500 pilots to attrition.

 

[JoeMerchant]

You need to get a new perspective. Next time in the cockpit, take a wiff of that 100% oygen from the mask. It might improve your speculation skills!

Read the latest from the REAL S.H. on the company website. Apparently, the company is about to spend some money and run adds in major pilot communications soliciting pilots. It projects the hiring of 500 (yes, 500) pilots in 2007. Does this sound like the actions of a company that is going out of business??????????????? We have not lost 500 pilots to attrition.

Speedtripe,

Do you honestly believe that the ASA G.O. is part of the decision making process? They are along for the ride just as much as the ASA pilots are. The long term plans for ASA are not made in the ASA G.O. They will be made by Delta and then by SGU.... Maybe you should take a hit of that O2...

 

[79%N1]

They have already hired more than half of those for this year (07). I'm not so sure he's not that far off. And when Delta decides to replace old 50's flown in ATL by ASA with new 900's....who do you suppose will get them? ASA? I don't think so. Looks like more for Skywest, Mesa and Pinnacle. The dumbest response I hear to that.......'So what, let them have them!'

 

[sweptback]

All of you guys talking about how the CRJ 200s will be replaced one-for-one with CRJ 900s... I have news for you. They can't.

There is a scope limit of the amount of 76-seat airplanes. I'm sure a Delta pilot can correct me, but it was 30 airplanes initially, with a 3-to-1 ratio for every additional mainline airplane on property. Delta has pretty much awarded every 900 that they have the ability to, as they only have a handful of mainline deliveries scheduled.

I also believe that there is a 200 aircraft limit of the combined total of 70- and 76-seat class airplanes. There are more than 200 50-seat airplanes flying around. So, there will still be a need for 50-seat airplanes. Now, do I believe that the 50-seat market is dead? Yes. Old Comair birds are already being sent to the desert, and it won't be too long before ship 820 has reached its design life. Will there be a new design replacement for these airplanes? I have no idea. But I wouldn't worry about the 900 replacement issue, as Delta can only operate so many of these types of airplanes.

 

[jegermeister]

So, there will still be a need for 50-seat airplanes. Now, do I believe that the 50-seat market is dead? Yes. Old Comair birds are already being sent to the desert, and it won't be too long before ship 820 has reached its design life. Will there be a new design replacement for these airplanes? I have no idea. But I wouldn't worry about the 900 replacement issue, as Delta can only operate so many of these types of airplanes.

Let me understand your logic. 50's are going away and there are limited opportunities for larger aircraft.

The way I see it that leaves us holding a giant bag of sh!t. I stand tall knowing that, if it makes you feel better.

I'm not advocating cut and run. I am advocating the union settles this before there is nothing left.

 

[79%N1]

I'll second that. And I don't advocate we cave and be like Mesa. (Notice I didn't say CHQ/REP. Look at their contract. Other than FO pay rates, it is better than what ASA currently has in most areas)

I advocate we set more realistic expectations, and give up somethings or give mgmnt something they want (negotiate) to get this done. If ALPA NAtional is driving our MEC's agenda for us, this needs to stop. Who cares how long we have waited. We need to get this done. We are losing money, and QOL every dang day we drag this out hoping for an industry leading contract that will put us on the sreets anyway.

 

[crjskipper]

but what can we do - our CNC just last week told us in recurrent pilots they are sure of a release - and they know sw will settle before a strike. they wont back down - not even a little. it was mentioned to the CNC that we would not get released by the nmb before the summer and they told everyone it was coming. how could anyone think that?

they are also telling the recurent classes that the alpa vote is a done-deal? where do they get thier confidence from?

i feel like the CNC is playing poker with my future?

 

[COOPERVANE]

saying the 50's can't be replaced is like saying ASA MUST fly 80% of all DCI flights out of ATL because it is the agreement. Do you think we do that much now?

 

[Richard Gozinya]

If you look at the advertisement, one of the benefits that is listed is "Per Diem paid depending on crew base awarded."

Maybe this is just a slip, but many on these boards give these clowns multitudes of credit for having planned our future(ASA). So, are they just letting the cat out of the bag? Or are there future plans for a crew base?

I think there is another base in the future. CVG or MCO is what my gut is telling me, or maybe I just need to lower the fiber content of my diet. Now that I think of it, this whole place makes my gut hurt.

Dick

 

[Medeco]

but what can we do - our CNC just last week told us in recurrent pilots they are sure of a release - and they know sw will settle before a strike. they wont back down - not even a little. it was mentioned to the CNC that we would not get released by the nmb before the summer and they told everyone it was coming. how could anyone think that?

they are also telling the recurent classes that the alpa vote is a done-deal? where do they get thier confidence from?

i feel like the CNC is playing poker with my future?

Hey Skipper,

Why dont you try making a bit of sense?

Which vote are your speaking of, Skywest Alpa?

Did you stand up and say to YOUR CNC, that they are playing poker with your future?

These guys are well aware of the end results.

Medeco

 

[VeeOne]

I'm no chest-pounder, and in my position it's possible I may never go to another airline. But negotiations are full of tough talk from both sides of the table. I'm not going to be intimidated by rhetoric, especially when that rhetoric goes against what would be good business sense on the part of the company. And if in fact the company would rather do the illogical and inflict pain on itself by putting us out of business and out of a job, then I'll be forced to move on. But I'm not going to be taken advantage of in either case. It's a matter of principle (which there is very little of any more), and I have enough spine to stand on my principles.

Is this the kind of good business sense that sends 30 CRJ-900's to ATL with a crew base. Not to mention the added cost of an infrastructure that is seperate than ours (maintenance, etc.). Seems to me JA is making good of his threats and promises, and that we keep trying the same blind stunts over, and over, and over, and over, again. No, it has gone much farther than rhetoric and negotiating leverage.

 

[VeeOne]

All of you guys talking about how the CRJ 200s will be replaced one-for-one with CRJ 900s... I have news for you. They can't.

There is a scope limit of the amount of 76-seat airplanes. I'm sure a Delta pilot can correct me, but it was 30 airplanes initially, with a 3-to-1 ratio for every additional mainline airplane on property. Delta has pretty much awarded every 900 that they have the ability to, as they only have a handful of mainline deliveries scheduled.

I also believe that there is a 200 aircraft limit of the combined total of 70- and 76-seat class airplanes. There are more than 200 50-seat airplanes flying around. So, there will still be a need for 50-seat airplanes. Now, do I believe that the 50-seat market is dead? Yes. Old Comair birds are already being sent to the desert, and it won't be too long before ship 820 has reached its design life. Will there be a new design replacement for these airplanes? I have no idea. But I wouldn't worry about the 900 replacement issue, as Delta can only operate so many of these types of airplanes.

This sounds like the same inductive reasoning that bit us in the @$$ a few months ago with the CRJ900 issues. We were convinced that those were coming here to ASA, weren't we? So far, the assumptions of our MEC/LEC are biting us in the butt and seem to be falling WAY off point. Perhaps it's time they come clean and paint another picture of just what we are asking for will get us. Watch the uproar of the pilot group if ALPA were to admitt that our desires (scope, retirement, industry LEADING pay, COLA, and RETRO) would put ASA in a place for replacement.

Everytime this is brought up, the reference is always given to becoming average once that other carriers have negotiated their contracts. What if we don't get a labor friendly administration in 08 and it takes them, like us, 6-7 years for a new contract?

 

[MONKEY]

ALPA national is running the whole show

but what can we do - our CNC just last week told us in recurrent pilots they are sure of a release - and they know sw will settle before a strike. they wont back down - not even a little. it was mentioned to the CNC that we would not get released by the nmb before the summer and they told everyone it was coming. how could anyone think that?

they are also telling the recurent classes that the alpa vote is a done-deal? where do they get thier confidence from?

i feel like the CNC is playing poker with my future?

This is going to be an interesting showdown. ALPA has put itself in a tough position. It has promised to represent the best interests of the ASA pilot's, They are also trying to grow their business (2% from each and every SkyWest pilot). There is a conflict there for sure, but many refuse to see it or they refuse to admit it. ALPA has to tow a hard line, because if ASA settles for SkyWest plus 1%, then SkyWest pilots will look at ALPA as money wasted. IE pay 2% to make an extra 1%.

It has been said on these boards (and you know that if it is on flight info it must be true), that if INC's offer was put out to the pilot group that it would be accepted. Let me start off by saying that I am not advicating that it should be accepted, but if this is true ALPA has taken the position that the rank and file don't know what is best for them. Is this because the rank and file truely do not know what is best for them, or is it that ALPA cannot settle for the small increase over SkyWest rates because they will lose SkyWest's money?

The only middle ground I can see is getting a deal that guarantees ASA a % of any new growth and fight for an additional code share. We all know that MESA is on the way out on the United contract. If ALPA could get a deal with a guaranteed % of new growth, that would be the only motivation for SkyWest pilots to go ALPA. Once this occurs then there would be leverage for a single carrier potition.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Here are some quotes from the recent Pilot2Pilot conference call:

"We are comfortable with our position with the board (NMB)"

"The only logical outcome is a release"

We are:
"quite far apart on rates"
"very far on retro"
"very far on scope"

JR, the CNC Chairman said:

"We are trying to get a better contract to show Skywest - We want to look good to Skywest so they will see value in ALPA"

A question was asked about how Mesa, CHQ, and EGL achieved single lists. JR said "I don't know, you will have to ask Danny or Nick". Is everyone comfortable with the fact that the Chairman of the CNC didn't know how other carriers achieved a single list?

 

[ASARJMan]

JR, the CNC Chairman said:
"We are trying to get a better contract to show Skywest - We want to look good to Skywest so they will see value in ALPA"

I was in on that call, and I don't recall JR saying that Joey.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I was in on that call, and I don't recall JR saying that Joey.

I have a tape of the call..... it was said early on in the call......

He also said that we cannot legally negotiate a single list... which is false. What little faith I had was shattered.....

 

[sweptback]

I have a tape of the call..... it was said early on in the call......

Prove it then. Make a mp3 of the tape and upload it on one of the many free upload sites.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I have a tape of the call..... it was said early on in the call......

He also said that we cannot legally negotiate a single list... which is false. What little faith I had was shattered.....

I know our MEC knows better. Sorry to be uninformed, but when was this conference call?

Our CNC and MEC have recently refocused on scope (thanks in large part to your prodding) and I had hoped based on what I had been told that they finally got their heading set correctly.

You are correct. If JR said this, it is alarming!

Monkey - Excellent post, Sir.

 

[wms]

Is this the kind of good business sense that sends 30 CRJ-900's to ATL with a crew base. Not to mention the added cost of an infrastructure that is seperate than ours (maintenance, etc.). Seems to me JA is making good of his threats and promises, and that we keep trying the same blind stunts over, and over, and over, and over, again. No, it has gone much farther than rhetoric and negotiating leverage.

Sending a few -900s to ATL is just a way to get in our face. Starting a pilot base without extensive infrastructure is cheap, relatively speaking. A few moving expenses, some pilots being reshuffled, etc. SKYW has always been quick to open and close bases, it's not a big thing to them. They upped the ante, but they haven't gone all-in. They did the same thing when our -700s went to SLC. It was because of DAL's scope, but mgmt played up the "you can get it back if you're cheaper" talk to the SKYW pilots and it worked.

 

[michael707767]

All of you guys talking about how the CRJ 200s will be replaced one-for-one with CRJ 900s... I have news for you. They can't.

There is a scope limit of the amount of 76-seat airplanes. I'm sure a Delta pilot can correct me, but it was 30 airplanes initially, with a 3-to-1 ratio for every additional mainline airplane on property. Delta has pretty much awarded every 900 that they have the ability to, as they only have a handful of mainline deliveries scheduled.

I also believe that there is a 200 aircraft limit of the combined total of 70- and 76-seat class airplanes. .

He is correct about everything, execpt on the aircraft deliveries at Delta. Delta is adding 13 757s this year, and in 08 will be adding 4-5 777s and at least 10 737-700s. With the limit of 200 combined total of 70 and 76 seat aircraft, I think the limit will be reached in the next year or two. Will be intresting to see what happens. My guess is Delta will ask for relief on the 200 number, continuing to tie 900s to mainline deliveries.

 

[ASARJMan]

I have a tape of the call..... it was said early on in the call......

He also said that we cannot legally negotiate a single list... which is false. What little faith I had was shattered.....

Sorry, but I do not recall that being said JB. If it was, I sure as hell missed it, and I was awake at the beginning of the call! Your faith wasn't shattered John, it was never there in the first place.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Sorry, but I do not recall that being said JB. If it was, I sure as hell missed it, and I was awake at the beginning of the call! Your faith wasn't shattered John, it was never there in the first place.

You're right ASARJMan, I don't have any faith in ALPA anymore. I have watched too many ALPA induced train wrecks. Go over an look at the National ALPA message board. The age 60 trainwreck and USAir/AWA merger trainwreck are tearing ALPA apart. There are guys threatening to cross each others picket lines over there.

JR said the part about "trying to get a better contract to show Skywest" early on. Later in the call, DU (Capt. Rep.) corrects JR, and says we aren't going to go after more just to influence the Skywest election. I have faith in Danny, I just think he is 1 against 3 right now..... he was part of the wrong coalition.....

Danny gets it..... I'm just afraid the others don't.......

 

[JoeMerchant]

I know our MEC knows better. Sorry to be uninformed, but when was this conference call?

Our CNC and MEC have recently refocused on scope (thanks in large part to your prodding) and I had hoped based on what I had been told that they finally got their heading set correctly.

You are correct. If JR said this, it is alarming!

Monkey - Excellent post, Sir.

I heard it with my own ears..... Danny was the only voice of reason..... He corrected what JR said about allowing "external factors" to drive these negotiations. Sounded like they didn't agree on things. JR made it very clear that this part of an ALPA national agenda....

 

[ASARJMan]

JR said the part about "trying to get a better contract to show Skywest" early on. Later in the call, DU (Capt. Rep.) corrects JR, and says we aren't going to go after more just to influence the Skywest election. ......

I think you're taking this out of context John. I believe JR meant we will get a good and fair contract. This will show the SKYW pilots what resolve will accomplish is what I sincerely believe JR meant.

As for DU, I again believe you're taking it out of context. DU meant we weren't going after a "sky-high" contract just to influence the SKYW election. But we are going after a fair and just contract with meaningful work rules, pay, and scope. On that the entire MEC/CNC is in agreement, amd the majority of ASA pilots.

Maybe you ought to provide your 'tape' for all to listen to so they can draw their own conclusions on what was said, and the intent it had.