What do you like about your job?

[woutlaw]

Good info, thanks folks.

I've been [SIZE=-1]ambivalent about the idea of flying for the airlines but I'm starting to change my tune.

Can't argue with how much I'll learn and the value of the experience.

I guess at 41 you tend to move into new things with a fair bit of caution and eyes wide open. Might be fun to be the weird old dude in class with a bunch of 20-somethings. I'm sure we'll learn a lot from each other.

Thanks again.

Will
[/SIZE]

 

[FlySacto]

That's because your airplane has a "for looks only" autopilot.

I'm sure it got some looks (of terror) from the pax last night. I was on the overhead panel when my newbie FO engaged the AP and the airplane kicked hard left and slowly back to the right. I don't know what scared her more, the airplane or my ninja reflexes/cussing. Other than that we had a good day. She's even learned to do the "placards and markings" check with me after a swap

 

[siucavflight]

Quack do you have a larger picture of your avatar?

 

[FirstMate]

My happiest and most liked days at Pissmont was the day I got hired and the day I put in my resignation.

 

[Flyer1015]

Compensation for flight instruction is not required, whatsoever. Also, just because a Commercial ticket is required, it does not make it a commercial operation. You are only required to hold the ticket so you may teach commercial principles and maneuvers to primary students. You are not required to even hold a medical if you are not acting as PIC of the flight.

If the FAA pushed flight instruction as commercial flying, we would lose half of our flight instructors to that alone. And, if what you are saying is true, then all of the flight instructors that are actively teaching while under 121 are doing so illegally. That being said, I know plenty of guys who instruct on their days off who do not have "permission" while working alongside the FAA regularly.

My synopsis of your post? It is how you feel about the subject, and not how the flying is actually regulated. The gray areas in the other post are just the man thinking out loud, while the meat of his post is correct. The FAA changed all this to allow their most experienced pilots to give back to aviation. It was quite well thought out.

If you are not being compensated for flying, then that's a different story. If you don't hold a medical, then that's a different story, too.

But if you are a paid flight instructor, that does hit the fine line of the gray area.

I post you this scenario:

In the wee early hours of the morning, you work as a paid flight instructor giving 3 hrs of flight instruction in an airplane. You then go commute in for your regional job, and then unfortunately have an accident during your last flight, 7 hrs 30 mints block time at your regional for the day so far. Now you get called by your CP and the NTSB investigates.

I wouldn't want to be in your shoes then.

I think most FOMs spell it out quite clearly regarding this.

I don't know about your FOM at Gulfstream, because your operation is a PFJ, and I don't know what kind of flight instruction you end up doing on Part 121 passenger flights.

 

[The_Russian]

If you are not being compensated for flying, then that's a different story. If you don't hold a medical, then that's a different story, too.
But if you are a paid flight instructor, that does hit the fine line of the gray area.

No, flight instruction is instruction. Compensation does not have an effect on the regulatory issues and type of flying being conducted. It is still "instruction". Medical status only limits "who" you can instruct. Third class lets you teach everyone, and if you have no medical, teach only "PIC qualified" (if you will) pilots and certificates.

In the wee early hours of the morning, you work as a paid flight instructor giving 3 hrs of flight instruction in an airplane. You then go commute in for your regional job, and then unfortunately have an accident during your last flight, 7 hrs 30 mints block time at your regional for the day so far. Now you get called by your CP and the NTSB investigates.

This would be applicable if flight instruction was considered "commercial flying".

I don't know about your FOM at Gulfstream, because your operation is a PFJ, and I don't know what kind of flight instruction you end up doing on Part 121 passenger flights.

Somehow I knew you couldn't resist going there. Now the conversation is over.

I am not going to stand for you saying anything negative about Gulfstream, or any of it's pilots. Personally, I find it funny that you have to throw this out there in an attempt to detract from the point, seeing as how you know little on the subject. What is also amusing is that while you may mouth off and b!tch about GIA guys, your scenario doesn't help at all to prove your point on the topic at hand. I guess you thought you were supposed to be a bit more knowledgeable than a Gulfstream guy. When you get a clue, then you might have a bit of room to talk down to us little guys, but it still doesn't make it right.

Good day.

 

[Flyer1015]

This would be applicable if flight instruction was considered "commercial flying".

Flight instruction, as in a paid CFI flying a student around. Aren't paid CFIs restricted to only 8 flight hours per day? I'm pretty sure they are. Why would you say that a paid CFI teaching students is not a commercial operation? Can you show me in a FAR or FOM where it says it is not?

I am not going to stand for you saying anything negative about Gulfstream, or any of it's pilots. Personally, I find it funny that you have to throw this out there in an attempt to detract from the point, seeing as how you know little on the subject. What is also amusing is that while you may mouth off and b!tch about GIA guys, your scenario doesn't help at all to prove your point on the topic at hand. I guess you thought you were supposed to be a bit more knowledgeable than a Gulfstream guy. When you get a clue, then you might have a bit of room to talk down to us little guys, but it still doesn't make it right.

You still didn't answer the question, and instead backed off to what I call the "Gulfstream Defense Mode." It's hard to have a conversation with someone who reverts to GDM.

 

[The_Russian]

Even though you don't deserve a response after your commentary:

Flight instruction, as in a paid CFI flying a student around. Aren't paid CFIs restricted to only 8 flight hours per day? I'm pretty sure they are. Why would you say that a paid CFI teaching students is not a commercial operation? Can you show me in a FAR or FOM where it says it is not?

Where is your FAR or FOM printed rule that says you can't? This is obviously a matter of understanding, and not a matter or regulatory substance. Commercial flying is NOT in any way associated with flight instruction. Here is the reg you quoted:

61.195 Flight instructor limitations and qualifications.

A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is subject to the following limitations:
(a) Hours of training. In any 24-consecutive-hour period, a flight instructor may not conduct more than 8 hours of flight training.

Do you notice that the reg states "flight training"? Not flight hours. A flight instructor can continue to fly for compensation at and above that, as long as he or she meets the rest requirements prescribed by the part they are operating under.

Also, the student should be the one flying YOU around, while you provide instruction and demonstration. Or maybe you forgot what instructing is all about. Flight instruction is not considered commercial flying because it is considered "instruction". To operate with commercial privileges you must hold at least a Second Class medical. In the case of flight instruction, only a Third Class medical is required. And, the accrued flight hours are considered instruction, not flight time.

You still didn't answer the question, and instead backed off to what I call the "Gulfstream Defense Mode." It's hard to have a conversation with someone who reverts to GDM.

I don't see one question mark or question itself in your entire post. So what did you ask me? It appears as though your only point was to take a swing at GIA. Too bad you had to resort to that, most likely expecting to receive support from others thereafter. Not likely.

 

[BrownStreak]

Russian,

this kind of moron is reason we have people showing up for jet jobs with little to no understanding of how aviation works. He should do us all a favor and fall off a tall building.

Not ALL of em, now! I didn't say that! Before you flame baiters start saying I said there aren't any qualified pilots around. But you should see some of these clowns. Take, Pilot754, for example.

EET VUZZ THEE FIIINEST BEER EEN AWULLL AHVE ZEEE VURRLD

 

[Flyer1015]

A flight instructor can continue to fly for compensation at and above that, as long as he or she meets the rest requirements prescribed by the part they are operating under.

Also, the student should be the one flying YOU around, while you provide instruction and demonstration. Or maybe you forgot what instructing is all about. Flight instruction is not considered commercial flying because it is considered "instruction". To operate with commercial privileges you must hold at least a Second Class medical. In the case of flight instruction, only a Third Class medical is required. And, the accrued flight hours are considered instruction

That all sounds nice, but can you point to a specific FAR that clearly states that being a paid CFI is not considered commercial flying? In the end of it all, the FAR is the book that will save or bust your as$, so can you offer proof? I'm truly curious.

Show me what FAR states that paid flight instruction is not a commercial operation.

Flight instruction is not considered commercial flying because it is considered "instruction". To operate with commercial privileges you must hold at least a Second Class medical. In the case of flight instruction, only a Third Class medical is required.

Again, do you have a FAR that states that paid flight instruction is not commercial flying?

What's to stop someone from saying, "Does it require a Commercial pilot certificate to do it?" (CFIing does require a commercial pilot certificate) If your answer is yes, then yes, it's a commercial operation."

How will you fight that interpretation that a regional airline might have?

Russian,

this kind of moron is reason we have people showing up for jet jobs with little to no understanding of how aviation works. He should do us all a favor and fall off a tall building.

Jump off a tall building for believing that paid flight instructing is commercial flying? That's all it takes for you to want someone to commit suicide? Get a life.

 

[WSurf]

With the The Russians decision making skills on this board I don't know if I would recommend her as a Flight Instructor to anyone. But then again if your at Gulfstream then that explains a bunch. wink wink

 

[Flyer1015]

With the The Russians decision making skills on this board I don't know if I would recommend her as a Flight Instructor to anyone. But then again if your at Gulfstream then that explains a bunch. wink wink

LOL!!

 

[The_Russian]

You seem to have a blockage in your head somewhere. Maybe your blind hatred for Gulfstream has led you to believe that no from that airline can possibly be correct concerning any level of aeronautical knowledge. Time to clear that block. Stop running this thread in circles and listen to me a bit, huh?

Exercising commercial privileges, holding a commercial pilot certificate, and flight instruction are all different things. You must be clear on the definitions, regulatory material, and intent that supports these topics to understand them. This is very important, especially if you are a flight instructor.

When exercising the privileges of a commercial certificate, a commercial pilot is limited to how he or she can obtain work. Commercial pilots are not permitted to hold themselves out to the public for compensation or hire. For example, Flyer1015 cannot say "I am a commercial pilot and you can compensate me to fly you somewhere". What they must do, is conduct their commercial privileges under an operator or commercial operator, etc, to obtain compensation.

Now, keeping that in mind with applicability to flight instructors. A flight instructor, utilizing his flight instructor certificate, is permitted to hold himself out to the public offering the service of flight instruction in aircraft for which he or she is rated. This instruction can be for obtaining certificates, pilot proficiency, and currency. This is only permitted because flight instruction is not a commercial operation. Flight instruction is defined separately from that of all other types of flying.

Example:

61.1 Applicability and definitions.

(6) Flight training means that training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft.

...................

What's to stop someone from saying, "Does it require a Commercial pilot certificate to do it?" (CFIing does require a commercial pilot certificate) If your answer is yes, then yes, it's a commercial operation."

This is absolutely incorrect. Just because a pilot is operating under a commercial pilot certificate does not make the actual operation a commercial operation. Nor does the required possession of a commercial pilot certificate make the operation a commercial operation.

A flight instructor only operates accompanied by a commercial pilot certificate due to the fact that it is a prerequisite, and they must have the applicable aeronautical experience and training to give instruction those applying for the commercial certificate. The commercial pilot certificate only accompanies the flight instructor certificate to give the flight instructor the appropriate category and class privileges required by that instructor certificate. Also, the flight instructor is limited by the currency requirements of the commercial pilot certificate. Thus, if the commercial certificate is not current, neither is the CFI. Rendering him or her unable to utilize the flight instructor certificate to provide instruction.

That all sounds nice, but can you point to a specific FAR that clearly states that being a paid CFI is not considered commercial flying?

Again, do you have a FAR that states that paid flight instruction is not commercial flying?

Look see.......

§ 61.133 Commercial pilot privileges and limitations.

(a) Privileges —(1) General. A person who holds a commercial pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft—

(i) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire, provided the person is qualified in accordance with this part and with the applicable parts of this chapter that apply to the operation; and

(ii) For compensation or hire, provided the person is qualified in accordance with this part and with the applicable parts of this chapter that apply to the operation.

We have already discussed the flight instruction is defined separately from all other types of flying. To take this a step farther, you will see that privileges of the commercial pilot certificate are carrying persons or property for hire and being compensated for flying under an operation. Flight instruction is not an operation, nor is it a commercial operation. It is simply flight instruction. See definition:

(6) Flight training means that training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft.

..........

How will you fight that interpretation that a regional airline might have?

If the operator understand the regulations as they should, they should see that flight instruction is not a commercial operation. And, that is has no bearing on the flight time limitations for 121, 135, etc. The only interpretation that should be applied is the correct one.

 

[The_Russian]

Also, the medical certificate plays a huge part in the scenario.

If the pilot has the intent to exercise his or her commercial privileges, then the pilot certificate must be accompanied by a Second or First Class medical depending on the operation and position to be flown. A pilot may posses a commercial certificate and operate an aircraft regularly under a Third Class medical, but may not exercise commercial privileges.

A flight instructor however, may give flight instruction for compensation with only a Third Class medical or no medical whatsoever. This immediately excludes the flight instructor from operating under an area of commercial privileges. Therefore, it does not matter what the medical certificate status of the flight instructor is because it will not effect the status of the operation, which is flight instruction. The Third Class medical is only required to act as PIC in the aircraft which instruction is being given.

This is just a bonus bit of info that supports the previous post. Remember, if you choose to operate as a flight instructor without a medical you may not act as PIC. This means that at no time during the flight may you touch the controls, even in the interest of safety. This has been previously clarified by the FAA. This is why it is not smart to operate without at least a Third Class Medical.

 

[CA1900]

To add to the mix, a commercial certificate was not always a prerequisite for the CFI. There are many flight instructors out there who do not hold--and never held--commercial certificates. The commercial certificate being a prerequisite is a fairly recent thing (last 20 years, if memory serves).


Russian is on track with the medical issue. A second class is required for commercial operations. A third class is all that's required for flight instruction if the instructor acts as PIC.

If a second-class isn't required, it's not a commercial operation. I instructed for years, for money, with a third class.