What do you like about your job?

[mcjohn]

Contrary to what people tell ya, it is working for a living. The, " Wow I'm flying a jet", part of the job gets old fast. And it does get boring just like flight instructing after awhile, like doing 3+hour flights from EWR to OMA or MCI. And once again, while it is not pysical labor it is still "work". Just my 2 cents.

You know why it gets boring? Because it's flying. Even crop dusters get bored with the flying.

Flying for the airlines tends to be a little less dull then folks say. At least here on the east coast. Each season offers it's own unique challenges and you experience plenty of hard IMC.

But yes, it gets boring. If that's a problem then you chose the wrong career.

 

[Flyer1015]

Technically you're not allowed to flight instruct and make money from it, while you're employed at a regional airline.

But the overwhelming attitude is "Don't tell, don't ask, and if no one knows about it, it can't hurt!"

So do whatever you want.

 

[FlySacto]

Technically you're not allowed to flight instruct and make money from it, while you're employed at a regional airline.

But the overwhelming attitude is "Don't tell, don't ask, and if no one knows about it, it can't hurt!"

So do whatever you want.

Huh? Please give us the FAR on that one

 

[Flyer1015]

Don't know about FARs, but for sure in your FOM.

Once you start flying for a regional, they "own" all your commercial flying.

In most cases, you have to get an approval from a CP to take any "outside" flying.

Being a paid flight instructor in light general aviation aircraft certainly qualifies as 'outside commercial flying.'

Then you run into issues regarding whether or not the flight time limitations count towards your regional airline flight time limits.

 

[FlySacto]

Don't know about FARs, but for sure in your FOM.

Once you start flying for a regional, they "own" all your commercial flying.

In most cases, you have to get an approval from a CP to take any "outside" flying.

Being a paid flight instructor in light general aviation aircraft certainly qualifies as 'outside commercial flying.'

Then you run into issues regarding whether or not the flight time limitations count towards your regional airline flight time limits.

Sorry, I'm not trying to bust your chops. My point is you can flight instruct, fly on the side, etc depending on who you work for. Your airline is going to demand your hours first and you're responsible for making sure that you can make your committment to them. It's not hard to block low in a month at the airline and go make some real money at home to feed your kids.

 

[The_Russian]

Don't know about FARs, but for sure in your FOM.

Once you start flying for a regional, they "own" all your commercial flying.

In most cases, you have to get an approval from a CP to take any "outside" flying.

Being a paid flight instructor in light general aviation aircraft certainly qualifies as 'outside commercial flying.'

Then you run into issues regarding whether or not the flight time limitations count towards your regional airline flight time limits.

Flight instruction is absolutely not commercial flying. Flight instruction is considered to be "instruction only" by the FAA and does not have any influence on your time limitations for 121. Flight instructors are only required to hold a Third Class medical certificate to give instruction at all levels. To be "compensated" for flying, you must hold a Second Class medical.

Linky to a good thread on the subject:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=101952

Read post #4

 

[Flyer1015]

Flight instruction is absolutely not commercial flying. Flight instruction is considered to be "instruction only" by the FAA and does not have any influence on your time limitations for 121. Flight instructors are only required to hold a Third Class medical certificate to give instruction at all levels. To be "compensated" for flying, you must hold a Second Class medical.

Linky to a good thread on the subject:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=101952

Read post #4

I'm gonna have to disagree with you here, and even that link's post #4 mentions the grey areas:

1. You do not need a second class to flight instruct. Only a third class is required for primary instruction. So since you need a second class for a commercial operation....the last I checked, a third class in not a commercial area.

Do you need a Commercial pilot license in order to flight instruct and make money? Answer: Yes.

Per most FOMs, this is strictly prohibited.

And even the author of that post admits:

Lastly, if you do instruct, do it low key. You will have Flt Ops Schoolhouse Lawyers make their own interpretation....so you're guilty until innocent.

and

Where you get into trouble is in the grey areas, like duty time. Instruct this morning. Jumpseat in the afternoon. Fly tonight. Have an incident. Explain yourself. It could be an issue.

and

Do what you feel is right for you----and keep it to yourself.

There's a reason for all that secrecy! It's technically not allowed when you're employed at an airline, as per your FOM. Hence all the "keep it low key" advice, and all the "well, this is a grey area..." comments. And this seals the deal: "Instruct this morning. Jumpseat in the afternoon. Fly tonight. Have an incident. Explain yourself. It could be an issue."


So technically, you must get your CP's approval to be a paid general aviation flight instructor while employed at your regional. And I bet most CPs would deny it... simply for all the reasons listed above.

 

[The_Russian]

Compensation for flight instruction is not required, whatsoever. Also, just because a Commercial ticket is required, it does not make it a commercial operation. You are only required to hold the ticket so you may teach commercial principles and maneuvers to primary students. You are not required to even hold a medical if you are not acting as PIC of the flight.

If the FAA pushed flight instruction as commercial flying, we would lose half of our flight instructors to that alone. And, if what you are saying is true, then all of the flight instructors that are actively teaching while under 121 are doing so illegally. That being said, I know plenty of guys who instruct on their days off who do not have "permission" while working alongside the FAA regularly.

My synopsis of your post? It is how you feel about the subject, and not how the flying is actually regulated. The gray areas in the other post are just the man thinking out loud, while the meat of his post is correct. The FAA changed all this to allow their most experienced pilots to give back to aviation. It was quite well thought out.

 

[flyboyike]

That's your choice to make. I hand fly at least one leg per day. Tuesday I flew an ILS to mins, went missed, held, another ILS and went missed due to the LOC signal going out and getting computer flags, and then diverted through WX to my alternate while leaving "George" fast asleep. You can still go act like a pilot if you dare

That's because your airplane has a "for looks only" autopilot.

 

[mcjohn]

Freakin George likes to take an unexpected 15 degree nose down pitch from time to time. George misbehaves often and we cut him off but he never seems to learn.

 

[woutlaw]

Good info, thanks folks.

I've been [SIZE=-1]ambivalent about the idea of flying for the airlines but I'm starting to change my tune.

Can't argue with how much I'll learn and the value of the experience.

I guess at 41 you tend to move into new things with a fair bit of caution and eyes wide open. Might be fun to be the weird old dude in class with a bunch of 20-somethings. I'm sure we'll learn a lot from each other.

Thanks again.

Will
[/SIZE]

 

[FlySacto]

That's because your airplane has a "for looks only" autopilot.

I'm sure it got some looks (of terror) from the pax last night. I was on the overhead panel when my newbie FO engaged the AP and the airplane kicked hard left and slowly back to the right. I don't know what scared her more, the airplane or my ninja reflexes/cussing. Other than that we had a good day. She's even learned to do the "placards and markings" check with me after a swap

 

[siucavflight]

Quack do you have a larger picture of your avatar?

 

[FirstMate]

My happiest and most liked days at Pissmont was the day I got hired and the day I put in my resignation.

 

[Flyer1015]

Compensation for flight instruction is not required, whatsoever. Also, just because a Commercial ticket is required, it does not make it a commercial operation. You are only required to hold the ticket so you may teach commercial principles and maneuvers to primary students. You are not required to even hold a medical if you are not acting as PIC of the flight.

If the FAA pushed flight instruction as commercial flying, we would lose half of our flight instructors to that alone. And, if what you are saying is true, then all of the flight instructors that are actively teaching while under 121 are doing so illegally. That being said, I know plenty of guys who instruct on their days off who do not have "permission" while working alongside the FAA regularly.

My synopsis of your post? It is how you feel about the subject, and not how the flying is actually regulated. The gray areas in the other post are just the man thinking out loud, while the meat of his post is correct. The FAA changed all this to allow their most experienced pilots to give back to aviation. It was quite well thought out.

If you are not being compensated for flying, then that's a different story. If you don't hold a medical, then that's a different story, too.

But if you are a paid flight instructor, that does hit the fine line of the gray area.

I post you this scenario:

In the wee early hours of the morning, you work as a paid flight instructor giving 3 hrs of flight instruction in an airplane. You then go commute in for your regional job, and then unfortunately have an accident during your last flight, 7 hrs 30 mints block time at your regional for the day so far. Now you get called by your CP and the NTSB investigates.

I wouldn't want to be in your shoes then.

I think most FOMs spell it out quite clearly regarding this.

I don't know about your FOM at Gulfstream, because your operation is a PFJ, and I don't know what kind of flight instruction you end up doing on Part 121 passenger flights.

 

[The_Russian]

If you are not being compensated for flying, then that's a different story. If you don't hold a medical, then that's a different story, too.
But if you are a paid flight instructor, that does hit the fine line of the gray area.

No, flight instruction is instruction. Compensation does not have an effect on the regulatory issues and type of flying being conducted. It is still "instruction". Medical status only limits "who" you can instruct. Third class lets you teach everyone, and if you have no medical, teach only "PIC qualified" (if you will) pilots and certificates.

In the wee early hours of the morning, you work as a paid flight instructor giving 3 hrs of flight instruction in an airplane. You then go commute in for your regional job, and then unfortunately have an accident during your last flight, 7 hrs 30 mints block time at your regional for the day so far. Now you get called by your CP and the NTSB investigates.

This would be applicable if flight instruction was considered "commercial flying".

I don't know about your FOM at Gulfstream, because your operation is a PFJ, and I don't know what kind of flight instruction you end up doing on Part 121 passenger flights.

Somehow I knew you couldn't resist going there. Now the conversation is over.

I am not going to stand for you saying anything negative about Gulfstream, or any of it's pilots. Personally, I find it funny that you have to throw this out there in an attempt to detract from the point, seeing as how you know little on the subject. What is also amusing is that while you may mouth off and b!tch about GIA guys, your scenario doesn't help at all to prove your point on the topic at hand. I guess you thought you were supposed to be a bit more knowledgeable than a Gulfstream guy. When you get a clue, then you might have a bit of room to talk down to us little guys, but it still doesn't make it right.

Good day.

 

[Flyer1015]

This would be applicable if flight instruction was considered "commercial flying".

Flight instruction, as in a paid CFI flying a student around. Aren't paid CFIs restricted to only 8 flight hours per day? I'm pretty sure they are. Why would you say that a paid CFI teaching students is not a commercial operation? Can you show me in a FAR or FOM where it says it is not?

I am not going to stand for you saying anything negative about Gulfstream, or any of it's pilots. Personally, I find it funny that you have to throw this out there in an attempt to detract from the point, seeing as how you know little on the subject. What is also amusing is that while you may mouth off and b!tch about GIA guys, your scenario doesn't help at all to prove your point on the topic at hand. I guess you thought you were supposed to be a bit more knowledgeable than a Gulfstream guy. When you get a clue, then you might have a bit of room to talk down to us little guys, but it still doesn't make it right.

You still didn't answer the question, and instead backed off to what I call the "Gulfstream Defense Mode." It's hard to have a conversation with someone who reverts to GDM.

 

[The_Russian]

Even though you don't deserve a response after your commentary:

Flight instruction, as in a paid CFI flying a student around. Aren't paid CFIs restricted to only 8 flight hours per day? I'm pretty sure they are. Why would you say that a paid CFI teaching students is not a commercial operation? Can you show me in a FAR or FOM where it says it is not?

Where is your FAR or FOM printed rule that says you can't? This is obviously a matter of understanding, and not a matter or regulatory substance. Commercial flying is NOT in any way associated with flight instruction. Here is the reg you quoted:

61.195 Flight instructor limitations and qualifications.

A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is subject to the following limitations:
(a) Hours of training. In any 24-consecutive-hour period, a flight instructor may not conduct more than 8 hours of flight training.

Do you notice that the reg states "flight training"? Not flight hours. A flight instructor can continue to fly for compensation at and above that, as long as he or she meets the rest requirements prescribed by the part they are operating under.

Also, the student should be the one flying YOU around, while you provide instruction and demonstration. Or maybe you forgot what instructing is all about. Flight instruction is not considered commercial flying because it is considered "instruction". To operate with commercial privileges you must hold at least a Second Class medical. In the case of flight instruction, only a Third Class medical is required. And, the accrued flight hours are considered instruction, not flight time.

You still didn't answer the question, and instead backed off to what I call the "Gulfstream Defense Mode." It's hard to have a conversation with someone who reverts to GDM.

I don't see one question mark or question itself in your entire post. So what did you ask me? It appears as though your only point was to take a swing at GIA. Too bad you had to resort to that, most likely expecting to receive support from others thereafter. Not likely.

 

[BrownStreak]

Russian,

this kind of moron is reason we have people showing up for jet jobs with little to no understanding of how aviation works. He should do us all a favor and fall off a tall building.

Not ALL of em, now! I didn't say that! Before you flame baiters start saying I said there aren't any qualified pilots around. But you should see some of these clowns. Take, Pilot754, for example.

EET VUZZ THEE FIIINEST BEER EEN AWULLL AHVE ZEEE VURRLD

 

[Flyer1015]

A flight instructor can continue to fly for compensation at and above that, as long as he or she meets the rest requirements prescribed by the part they are operating under.

Also, the student should be the one flying YOU around, while you provide instruction and demonstration. Or maybe you forgot what instructing is all about. Flight instruction is not considered commercial flying because it is considered "instruction". To operate with commercial privileges you must hold at least a Second Class medical. In the case of flight instruction, only a Third Class medical is required. And, the accrued flight hours are considered instruction

That all sounds nice, but can you point to a specific FAR that clearly states that being a paid CFI is not considered commercial flying? In the end of it all, the FAR is the book that will save or bust your as$, so can you offer proof? I'm truly curious.

Show me what FAR states that paid flight instruction is not a commercial operation.

Flight instruction is not considered commercial flying because it is considered "instruction". To operate with commercial privileges you must hold at least a Second Class medical. In the case of flight instruction, only a Third Class medical is required.

Again, do you have a FAR that states that paid flight instruction is not commercial flying?

What's to stop someone from saying, "Does it require a Commercial pilot certificate to do it?" (CFIing does require a commercial pilot certificate) If your answer is yes, then yes, it's a commercial operation."

How will you fight that interpretation that a regional airline might have?

Russian,

this kind of moron is reason we have people showing up for jet jobs with little to no understanding of how aviation works. He should do us all a favor and fall off a tall building.

Jump off a tall building for believing that paid flight instructing is commercial flying? That's all it takes for you to want someone to commit suicide? Get a life.