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DruDown said:All too often we pilots get so wound up over what the other group did that we loose sight of what we are trying to do at our own company - let's NOT let that happen this time. If your group signs a substandard contract, it's not Mesa's fault -
DruDown said:And, if the TA did not pass, what would have stopped JO from transferring all the assets to Freedumb? And if he did, from what would the Mesa pilots be striking from - there would be no more company and no legal precedent to return the assets to the current group. Yes, the Mesa guys would have stood up to JO, but he still would have won and succeeded in putting over a thousand pilots out of work - that doesn't sound like a success for ALPA or the pilot group!
The America West guys voted there $hit TA down
I disagree about Mr. Griese's abilities. No question about his intelligence and understanding of the offense. Some questions about his athletic ability. Many more questions about his decision-making ability, e.g. his penchant for throwing INTs in critical situations.Mr. Irrelevant said:I think Denver isn't going to be that happy with the Snake. Maybe personality wise, but Griese is the better pure QB. And that O-Line is the dirtiest in football. It's going to take another team rolling up on one of their guy's legs to teach them a lesson. Real shame. Great new RB though.
DruDown said:RJ
Try providing your management with a plan that outlines how to cut costs elsewhere, improve efficiency, and allow for wage increases or better work rules. Don't just tell them what you want, offer justification and a plan, be a little more proactive in the negotiations.
I.P. Freley said:Not having any knowledge of what the previous contractual commitments were/are, what is so unbelievably horrible about any of this that everyone is totally freaking out about it? Well, except for the 8/10 days off guarantee? And what of the compensation per hour and the monthly guarantee?
Some of it sounds sketchy, but why is everyone so up in arms about this?
bustinmins said:
JO: (beginning of negotiations) "We have to have a deal today by 1700 or furlough notices go out for 200 tomorrow morning"
ALPA: Negotiates for four hours to no avail. Then at 1615 hours the following round of discussions occur.
JO: (yelling at ALPA) "Why won't you take the f'ing deal?
ALPA: (ALPA Calmly)"Simple, there's no scope."
JO: (in extreme anger)Your F'ing scope, the agreed upon sections and the rest of my offer?
ALPApauses to think - this is the only time he has ever offered anything - chats with his partner) "We'd like to go to caucus on that."
JO: "What?, that wasn't an offer - it was a hypothetical!"
ALPA and JO look at the NMB Deputy Chief of Staff who was mediating the negotiations
NMB: "Sounded like an offer to me".
MESA ATTORNEY: puts face in hands and shakes head
ALPA Retreats to caucus because we had to have an answer to him in 45 minutes or the deal is off and furloughs begin.
ALPA returns and accepts the offer
JO: "I'll have to think about it?"
NMB:"You have to think about your own offer?" NMB looks rather
sternly at JO.....
JO: "We accept".
JD
DruDown said:Regardless of what the Mesa guys "sound like," the fact is the TA has been ratified by the pilot group at Mesa - the focus should now be to prevent similar happenings at other companies. If we want to be unified, we should be working with CHQ and helping them not get into the same situation, and the group at Mesaba. Those guys are in a similar situation with "alter-ego" crap and shifting assets.
Another great point Dru! But now the other companies are put into a GREAT bind trying to over come statments from MGT like "Mesa's contract is this" It is extremely disheartning to put in the work to make things better as a whole to only have yet another group tear down what took years to build. Comair was willing and did walk for what was right. We at Air Wisconsin were prepared to do the same. We went out on the line to raise the standard at this level of airline flying and mesa has set us back to levels pre 1994 and for what???? They chose not to hold the line and thus should not expect ANY respect from those those of us who did. CHQ and Mesaba can now expect the roughest negotiations tactics there are and the threat of "we will use alter-ego to farm out your work. This business has always been "no pain no gain" Mesa, you have proven that you were unwilling to put in the necessary work and thus don't deserve my or any of us who have put in the work, respect. Denver will be a hostile enviroment for you from us as I am sure it will be in many other cities around the country...
WD.
RJPilott said:Dru...
What one carrier does has a direct effect on other carriers. I wouldnt mind it so much if Mesa accepted a TA that was at least worth a decent life after so much training and hard work to get where they are. But it seems they just threw in the towel on something (scope) that could have been a bluff to begin with to get such a sub-standard contract.. Tunnel vision on scope is not the way to go. Ask any mainline pilot.
Wiskey Driver said:DruDown said:
This business has always been "no pain no gain" Mesa, you have proven that you were unwilling to put in the necessary work and thus don't deserve my or any of us who have put in the work, respect. Denver will be a hostile enviroment for you from us as I am sure it will be in many other cities around the country...
WD.
I do believe that Mesa put in a lot of work and did everything they felt they could. There is no way Mesa would have been allowed to strike with the current condition of their codeshare partners and there is no way to know that JO would not have transferred everything to Freedumb. Are you saying it would be better to have 1400 or so pilots on the street, plus the other 2000 or so employees and let Freedumb succeed? Again, this TA saved jobs and created more jobs and closed down the alter-ego - I think these are some big victories.
English said:Someone posted that this action by Mesa does not "lower the bar" for others. But actually, I know of at least one airline (American Eagle) that uses an "industry average" to determine annual pay raises. Eagle takes an average of several regional airlines' payscales and uses that average to determine the IAI increases to salary. So, Mesa has just directly lowered the pay of American Eagle as well. I'm not saying it was right or wrong, just pointing out that their actions DID directly affect other pilots and families.
DruDown said:I do believe that Mesa put in a lot of work and did everything they felt they could. There is no way Mesa would have been allowed to strike with the current condition of their codeshare partners and there is no way to know that JO would not have transferred everything to Freedumb. Are you saying it would be better to have 1400 or so pilots on the street, plus the other 2000 or so employees and let Freedumb succeed? Again, this TA saved jobs and created more jobs and closed down the alter-ego - I think these are some big victories.