What did Mesa agree to??

[bladeusa]

looking at these pay scales.. make more at comair as a 50 seat CA then u would at mesa in the 90... some peoples kids these days...

 

[DarnNearaJet]

Not having any knowledge of what the previous contractual commitments were/are, what is so unbelievably horrible about any of this that everyone is totally freaking out about it? Well, except for the 8/10 days off guarantee? And what of the compensation per hour and the monthly guarantee?

Some of it sounds sketchy, but why is everyone so up in arms about this?

How long have you been in the industry? Mesa lowered the bar for all of us. Every CEO of an airline in negotations will hold up a copy of their contract and say: "We must compete with this. Sign off on these concessions now or we will loose UAL's, DAL's ... business."

Contrary to what some may posit, being concerned with another fee-for-departure airline's contract IS minding your business.

The race to the bottom has begun. Thank you MESA!

I wonder when PFT will resume.

 

[RJPilott]

Re: behind the scenes with the Mesa TA

JO: (beginning of negotiations) "We have to have a deal today by 1700 or furlough notices go out for 200 tomorrow morning"
ALPA: Negotiates for four hours to no avail. Then at 1615 hours the following round of discussions occur.

JO: (yelling at ALPA) "Why won't you take the f'ing deal?
ALPA: (ALPA Calmly)"Simple, there's no scope."
JO: (in extreme anger)Your F'ing scope, the agreed upon sections and the rest of my offer?
ALPApauses to think - this is the only time he has ever offered anything - chats with his partner) "We'd like to go to caucus on that."
JO: "What?, that wasn't an offer - it was a hypothetical!"
ALPA and JO look at the NMB Deputy Chief of Staff who was mediating the negotiations
NMB: "Sounded like an offer to me".
MESA ATTORNEY: puts face in hands and shakes head
ALPA Retreats to caucus because we had to have an answer to him in 45 minutes or the deal is off and furloughs begin.
ALPA returns and accepts the offer
JO: "I'll have to think about it?"
NMB:"You have to think about your own offer?" NMB looks rather
sternly at JO.....
JO: "We accept".


JD

Sounds like an impulse buy to me. Played you right where he needed you. You really need a new negotiating commitee... Gotta hand it to JO. He is pretty smart. Although not too wise... pi$$ing people off is no way to go through life, rich or poor... Has your your negotiating commitee ever heard of "theatrics"?

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Real Now!

Regardless of what the Mesa guys "sound like," the fact is the TA has been ratified by the pilot group at Mesa - the focus should now be to prevent similar happenings at other companies. If we want to be unified, we should be working with CHQ and helping them not get into the same situation, and the group at Mesaba. Those guys are in a similar situation with "alter-ego" crap and shifting assets.

Another great point Dru! But now the other companies are put into a GREAT bind trying to over come statments from MGT like "Mesa's contract is this" It is extremely disheartning to put in the work to make things better as a whole to only have yet another group tear down what took years to build. Comair was willing and did walk for what was right. We at Air Wisconsin were prepared to do the same. We went out on the line to raise the standard at this level of airline flying and mesa has set us back to levels pre 1994 and for what???? They chose not to hold the line and thus should not expect ANY respect from those those of us who did. CHQ and Mesaba can now expect the roughest negotiations tactics there are and the threat of "we will use alter-ego to farm out your work. This business has always been "no pain no gain" Mesa, you have proven that you were unwilling to put in the necessary work and thus don't deserve my or any of us who have put in the work, respect. Denver will be a hostile enviroment for you from us as I am sure it will be in many other cities around the country...

WD.

 

[DruDown]

Dru...


What one carrier does has a direct effect on other carriers. I wouldnt mind it so much if Mesa accepted a TA that was at least worth a decent life after so much training and hard work to get where they are. But it seems they just threw in the towel on something (scope) that could have been a bluff to begin with to get such a sub-standard contract.. Tunnel vision on scope is not the way to go. Ask any mainline pilot.

Yes, on the surface it does appear that Mesa threw in the towel, and they may very well have. However, the negotiating committee's first priority was to protect all of the MAG pilots - bring back the CC Air guys, get Freedumb out of the way and ensure all Mesa flying will be flown by Mesa pilots. Knowing JO's history, it was too big of a risk to think he was bluffing. For argument sake, let's say Mesa turned down the TA - Result being all assets transferred to Freedumb, all current Mesa pilots out of work, all current Mesa employees out of work. How can it be right for the pilots, making up less than half of the workforce, to make a decision that forces thousands of other employees out of work? Not only that, but 1400 or so pilots out of work and a new non-union, well-organized, with an already built route structure taking over! The cost for signing the TA seems to be a lot less than the potential cost of turning it down.

What would everyone on this board be saying if the TA was turned down and Freedumb took over everyting? Would everyone be applauding the pilot group for standing their ground and allowing Freedumb to prosper - I think not.

Yes, the actual result in turn calls for more work on the part of everyone else, but the Mesa group has saved job, created new ones and prevented an alter-ego company from succeeding. The QOL and pay issues are issues the Mesa pilots have to live with and accept, but everyone else can fight for something better. We should all be focusing now on Mesaba and CHQ and figuring out ways to succeed there without the same consequences we see now at Mesa.

 

[DruDown]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Real Now!

This business has always been "no pain no gain" Mesa, you have proven that you were unwilling to put in the necessary work and thus don't deserve my or any of us who have put in the work, respect. Denver will be a hostile enviroment for you from us as I am sure it will be in many other cities around the country...
WD.

I do believe that Mesa put in a lot of work and did everything they felt they could. There is no way Mesa would have been allowed to strike with the current condition of their codeshare partners and there is no way to know that JO would not have transferred everything to Freedumb. Are you saying it would be better to have 1400 or so pilots on the street, plus the other 2000 or so employees and let Freedumb succeed? Again, this TA saved jobs and created more jobs and closed down the alter-ego - I think these are some big victories.

 

[English]

Someone posted that this action by Mesa does not "lower the bar" for others. But actually, I know of at least one airline (American Eagle) that uses an "industry average" to determine annual pay raises. Eagle takes an average of several regional airlines' payscales and uses that average to determine the IAI increases to salary. So, Mesa has just directly lowered the pay of American Eagle as well. I'm not saying it was right or wrong, just pointing out that their actions DID directly affect other pilots and families.

 

[Beantown]

Someone posted that this action by Mesa does not "lower the bar" for others. But actually, I know of at least one airline (American Eagle) that uses an "industry average" to determine annual pay raises. Eagle takes an average of several regional airlines' payscales and uses that average to determine the IAI increases to salary. So, Mesa has just directly lowered the pay of American Eagle as well. I'm not saying it was right or wrong, just pointing out that their actions DID directly affect other pilots and families.

English, What are you talking about dude. This TA only INCREASES the pay rates at Mesa. The increases are very small but they also get raises every 18 months. If anything this should get a small bump UP in your pay rates at eagle. Man are people uninformed around here! -Bean

 

[canadflyau]

ALPA has no national focus, and I believe we are seeing that come out through its members and individual MEC's. I hold ALPA responsible for that.

I wish some of the oldtimer's, original ALPA and APA members, would speak to classes during indoc, b/c we (the regional pilots) are not being indoctrinated by our union. They should share with us what it was like before, what they had to fight for, etc. to get us where we are know, and where we need to go (NATIONAL VISION.) It is the kind of conversation that used to take place between Captain and new FO. Times are changing and with the rise of regionals being a career choice this isn't occuring on the informal level now. Most of the time you could add my age and my captains age together and we would still have 10-15 years left until retirement.

We are all professional pilots doing the exact same job regardless of what equipment or whom we fly for, but there is less loyalty and more single focus in our profession and it seems to be contagious.

at our unions
-We have no goals
-We have no national vision (especially one that includes regionals are here to stay, and growing)
-We do not have strong leadership (esecially true amongst the regional ranks)

Its hard to fathom that "rasing the bar" and "industry standard plus" are becoming extinct phrases in the fastest growing sector of commercial aviation.. If we were too expensive or unprofitable we wouldn't be growing, ESPECIALLY during times such as these. Obviously there is a reason our respective mgts can go into a meeting with these national mgts and be walking out with contracts to overtake flying left and right. IMHO our costs must not be in line as we thought, were too cheap!!

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Real Now!

I do believe that Mesa put in a lot of work and did everything they felt they could. There is no way Mesa would have been allowed to strike with the current condition of their codeshare partners and there is no way to know that JO would not have transferred everything to Freedumb. Are you saying it would be better to have 1400 or so pilots on the street, plus the other 2000 or so employees and let Freedumb succeed? Again, this TA saved jobs and created more jobs and closed down the alter-ego - I think these are some big victories.

Dru, given the current climate surrounding Freedom there is no way it could have ever been staffed with the amount of people necessary to make it work. What? are the good people on furlough going to take their careers in hand and say I will work there! No the fact still remains mesa people and I call them people because they don't deserve to be called "PILOTS" were scared and were bullied into signing a BS contract, THEY DID NOT TOW OR EVEN HOLD THE LINE THEY ARE COWARDS AND SHOULD BE TREATED AS SUCH... I used to read on this board years ago how Comair pilots with their PFT were crap but when the time came those men and women were right up front DEMANDING what was right and the fact that many paid for their jobs seemed to fade because those same jobs that they paid $7000-$12000 for they were willing to let go and with that display they won the respect of their brethern. mesa gets no respect so they can take their raises of 1.00 every eighteen months and their 8days off a month and enjoy but live where you work!!!!!!!!!

WD.

 

[CRJ Driver]

J.O. has you right in his back pocket, he got a bargan,
just buy a few pizzas and kfc for the employees and they will do anything. For the people not around in the airline business in the early 90's when JO was CEO of WestAir he was a scumbag Union buster and still is, and if you cant see it know you never will.

 

[I.P. Freley]

I'm afraid I am going to have to agree with Dru on this whole thing, those of you who are in such a snit about what Mesa accepted, and especially those who feel the need to resort to kiddie insults and "give 'em KFC" comments, need to take a look in the mirror. It's real easy, isn't it, to cast aspersions from afar without having even a modicum of consideration for the situation (or plight?) of the Mesa pilot group and second-guess them.

Well, for good or for ill, you DON'T work for them. Be happy about that, be sad, be neutral, or whatever, but just because you have concluded that their "deal" will affect YOUR attempt to get YOUR lot in life raised, you don't need to call them names, refuse them the jumpseat, or run around stomping your feet like a child refused an ice cream cone. I truly appreciate the comments of those who are p-o'd by the Mesa pilot group's actions but don't feel the need to go on a tear suggesting that they are all idiots... Much, MUCH more productive than name-calling and taunting... So these comments are not aimed at you (and you can probably tell who you are).

All that aside, I don't believe for a moment that any of these people who are calling for the heads of Mesa pilots have even a MINIMUM of altruistic concern "for the industry", but are mostly concerned about what THEY can wring out of their own management. You're just angry that it (possibly) undermines your OWN position.

So... I ask, how are YOUR selfish concerns any more valid than the selfish concerns of Mesa pilots? They did what they determined was best for them... Just like you would if you were in a bind... You wouldn't turn down a contract "for the good of the industry", you would do what was in your OWN BEST INTERESTS. I find it laughable that any of these furious individuals would sacrifice their own well-being (or their JOB) just so other airline pilots at other companies would have an easier time in their own contract negotiations.

If you haven't walked a mile in their moccasins, then you have no right to judge. I sense rampant hypocrisy at work here.

 

[mckpickle]

Freely, what we are so mad about is the fact that ANY group that agrees to work for slave wages and schedules cheapens the profession. And it makes it hard for the rest of us to get livable wages and safe schedules. Regional pilots should not be tearing through the air 16 hours a day with little rest worrying about their next meal. But when one group agrees to do it for next to nothing then it makes it harder for everyone else.

The excuse that "WE GOT SCOPE" is a cop out. All the things that the Mesa guys worried about could not have happened. JO would not shut them down. He would incur so many losses before he could scale Freedom up the whole group would have gone under. Plus if it came to a strike then the freedom guys would have been officially labeled as scabs and the Freedom flying struck work. But the Mesa pilots gave up. God they gave up quicker then Frenchmen!!!


They let themselves down, and they let safety down. And if you don't agree, please tell me after you just flew a 16 hour duty day and you F/O didn't eat because he couldn't afford it.

 

[DruDown]

Yes, the Mesa pilots did get scope, but they also got their CC Air counterparts back to work and succeeded in bringing Freedumb into the union, and created more jobs for the Airways furloughees with the J4J (whether you agree with it or not). So, I would have to say that there were a few victories here.

Strike? You think they would have been given authorization to strike considering the current conditions of their codeshare partners and the federal money involved? Learn how the process works before you start casting stones. The pilots cannot just decide to walk and do so. Approval must be granted to do so after the 30 day cooling off period, and there is slim to no chance it would have been granted.

Wouldn't be able to transfer everything over to Freedumb? Freedumb is already up and running, there are pilots on furlough and fresh CFIs lining up for the job. He could have the assets switched with a signature and training up and going within a week. A couple of months is all it would take to eliminate MAG and leave Freedumb standing alone - nonunion - flying "your" routes by undercutting "your" costs.

Look at the entire picture and not just how it affects you.

 

[mckpickle]

Strike? You think they would have been given authorization to strike considering the current conditions of their codeshare partners and the federal money involved? Learn how the process works before you start casting stones. The pilots cannot just decide to walk and do so. Approval must be granted to do so after the 30 day cooling off period, and there is slim to no chance it would have been granted.




...Look at the entire picture and not just how it affects you.

First off with you vast 2000 hours of flight time I'd care to say I've been there done that a little more than you. Hey I even had a chance to vote no on a TA before. Yourself? Didn't think so. Well you had the CHANCE I guess. But I understand how an airline contract works and I went through almost 2 years while trying to get one. But the difference was our first POS was voted down. When #2 finally came 9 months later, it was much better. And we heard the same threats.

Now about your last sentance. Take a little of your own advice.