What did Mesa agree to??

[CRJ Driver]

J.O. has you right in his back pocket, he got a bargan,
just buy a few pizzas and kfc for the employees and they will do anything. For the people not around in the airline business in the early 90's when JO was CEO of WestAir he was a scumbag Union buster and still is, and if you cant see it know you never will.

 

[I.P. Freley]

I'm afraid I am going to have to agree with Dru on this whole thing, those of you who are in such a snit about what Mesa accepted, and especially those who feel the need to resort to kiddie insults and "give 'em KFC" comments, need to take a look in the mirror. It's real easy, isn't it, to cast aspersions from afar without having even a modicum of consideration for the situation (or plight?) of the Mesa pilot group and second-guess them.

Well, for good or for ill, you DON'T work for them. Be happy about that, be sad, be neutral, or whatever, but just because you have concluded that their "deal" will affect YOUR attempt to get YOUR lot in life raised, you don't need to call them names, refuse them the jumpseat, or run around stomping your feet like a child refused an ice cream cone. I truly appreciate the comments of those who are p-o'd by the Mesa pilot group's actions but don't feel the need to go on a tear suggesting that they are all idiots... Much, MUCH more productive than name-calling and taunting... So these comments are not aimed at you (and you can probably tell who you are).

All that aside, I don't believe for a moment that any of these people who are calling for the heads of Mesa pilots have even a MINIMUM of altruistic concern "for the industry", but are mostly concerned about what THEY can wring out of their own management. You're just angry that it (possibly) undermines your OWN position.

So... I ask, how are YOUR selfish concerns any more valid than the selfish concerns of Mesa pilots? They did what they determined was best for them... Just like you would if you were in a bind... You wouldn't turn down a contract "for the good of the industry", you would do what was in your OWN BEST INTERESTS. I find it laughable that any of these furious individuals would sacrifice their own well-being (or their JOB) just so other airline pilots at other companies would have an easier time in their own contract negotiations.

If you haven't walked a mile in their moccasins, then you have no right to judge. I sense rampant hypocrisy at work here.

 

[mckpickle]

Freely, what we are so mad about is the fact that ANY group that agrees to work for slave wages and schedules cheapens the profession. And it makes it hard for the rest of us to get livable wages and safe schedules. Regional pilots should not be tearing through the air 16 hours a day with little rest worrying about their next meal. But when one group agrees to do it for next to nothing then it makes it harder for everyone else.

The excuse that "WE GOT SCOPE" is a cop out. All the things that the Mesa guys worried about could not have happened. JO would not shut them down. He would incur so many losses before he could scale Freedom up the whole group would have gone under. Plus if it came to a strike then the freedom guys would have been officially labeled as scabs and the Freedom flying struck work. But the Mesa pilots gave up. God they gave up quicker then Frenchmen!!!


They let themselves down, and they let safety down. And if you don't agree, please tell me after you just flew a 16 hour duty day and you F/O didn't eat because he couldn't afford it.

 

[DruDown]

Yes, the Mesa pilots did get scope, but they also got their CC Air counterparts back to work and succeeded in bringing Freedumb into the union, and created more jobs for the Airways furloughees with the J4J (whether you agree with it or not). So, I would have to say that there were a few victories here.

Strike? You think they would have been given authorization to strike considering the current conditions of their codeshare partners and the federal money involved? Learn how the process works before you start casting stones. The pilots cannot just decide to walk and do so. Approval must be granted to do so after the 30 day cooling off period, and there is slim to no chance it would have been granted.

Wouldn't be able to transfer everything over to Freedumb? Freedumb is already up and running, there are pilots on furlough and fresh CFIs lining up for the job. He could have the assets switched with a signature and training up and going within a week. A couple of months is all it would take to eliminate MAG and leave Freedumb standing alone - nonunion - flying "your" routes by undercutting "your" costs.

Look at the entire picture and not just how it affects you.

 

[mckpickle]

Strike? You think they would have been given authorization to strike considering the current conditions of their codeshare partners and the federal money involved? Learn how the process works before you start casting stones. The pilots cannot just decide to walk and do so. Approval must be granted to do so after the 30 day cooling off period, and there is slim to no chance it would have been granted.




...Look at the entire picture and not just how it affects you.

First off with you vast 2000 hours of flight time I'd care to say I've been there done that a little more than you. Hey I even had a chance to vote no on a TA before. Yourself? Didn't think so. Well you had the CHANCE I guess. But I understand how an airline contract works and I went through almost 2 years while trying to get one. But the difference was our first POS was voted down. When #2 finally came 9 months later, it was much better. And we heard the same threats.

Now about your last sentance. Take a little of your own advice.

 

[DruDown]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Real Now!

I call them people because they don't deserve to be called "PILOTS"
WD.

Thank you for being so professional!

I do believe the PILOTS at Mesa hold all of the same credentials as you and your pilot group holds. Are you a better pilot because you work with a better contract - NO. All this name calling and finger pointing only demonstrates your selfishness, laziness, childishness. Your upset because your not going to get what YOU want, and your too lazy to put in the extra effort required to negtioate effectively for it, and too childish to see the whole picture and must resort to name calling so you can feel better about yourself.

Take all of this anger and energy and put it back into your company and fight there for what you think you deserve. Keep in mind what you think you deserve and what your codeshare partners are able to pay you may be two entirely different things. Remember United pays most of your bills and look where they are now - partially because you've been getting what "you deserve."

If we keep "raising the bar" where does it top out at? It tops out when we price ourselves out of the market. You can't ask for what can't be provided, whether you deserve it or not. There are far more variables involved at the negotiating table than one other company's TA. Explore all of them, organize your thoughts, put together a reasonable proposal and see what happens - if you're willing to do the work - Oh, but they won't pay you for that and you deserve more, so that won't happen!

 

[SanJuanPlebe]

Freedom-Mesa

For those of you who say "Freedom couldn't be Staffed" and "JO was bluffing" I now know you weren't on the ramp in PHX watching a new jet show up at a rate of 2 a month. They had problems initially getting staffed, but believe me, those planes kept coming and coming and kept pushing our planes out of their gates. Sadly, they were having NO PROBLEM finding pilots, including some of our own.

What I believe initially (Freedom) was a bluff became a clear reality.

We solved our scope problem, brought furloughed (CCAir and US Airways Pilots) back to work, merged the seniority list, and got rid of Freedom. And yes, while our raise wasn't much, it was a raise just the same with a guaranteed raise every 18 months. That's something we've never had before.

We didn't lower the bar. We raised it....if only slightly. Our contract shouldn't have hurt ANYONE and should only help those by keeping Mesa Flying UNION and getting this whipsaw nonsense stopped.

You say we caved. We did what was in our best interests. I suggest you do the same at your company. Our contract has nothing to do with yours.

The argument of we can undercut you based on our contract is unfounded. Do I get mad at another company because they can negotiate better airplane leases and undercut Mesa?

Hell, Air Willy beat us on the Air Tran deal and we supposedly have "lower costs."

Don't beat us up because we can't get your contract. It wasn't going to happen no matter what. Period. JO would love NOTHING MORE than to have shut Mesa down and transferred ALL flying to non-union Freedom. And that's a fact.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Real Now!

Thank you for being so professional!

Your upset because your not going to get what YOU want, and your too lazy to put in the extra effort required to negtioate effectively for it, and too childish to see the whole picture and must resort to name calling so you can feel better about yourself.

Take all of this anger and energy and put it back into your company and fight there for what you think you deserve. Keep in mind what you think you deserve and what your codeshare partners are able to pay you may be two entirely different things. Remember United pays most of your bills and look where they are now - partially because you've been getting what "you deserve."

You know what Dru, I don't have to. I benefit each and everyday from THE INDUSTRY LEADING CONTRACT. We laid the foundation for you people and YOU fuked it up!!! Ual pays some of our bills and Airtran pays some but lets say UAL closes today, we will still be here and flying for who ever picks up the routes. Don't get too high and mighty there the only reason UAL is even looking in your direction is bankruptcy. You see UAL laid down with the mesa whores before and wound up with VD. You guys have the worst completion ratio in the country and we both know your F9 contract is hanging by threads. So enjoy your job as you watch those who come in go super senior to you with the J4J, something we and Skywest turned down hmmm I wonder why??? Oh and BTW I know I keep refering to you but something tells me that you are employed there.

WD

 

[canadflyau]

"Our contract has nothing to do with yours." -SanJuanPlebe
That statement makes my skin crawl!!

As far as Mesa goes, I don't feel I could 100% weigh in except from what I have read about your ratified TA and the posts I have been reading so forgive me if I am out of context.

Dru posted "Strike? You think they would have been given authorization to strike considering the current conditions of their codeshare partners and the federal money involved?" Well if many other folks fell into that line of thinking (it will never work) we probably wouldn't be flying, so thank you Wright Bros for your persistence. You bet you have the right to pursue strike, this is your only authorization to inflict economic hurt, of course at the completion of 30 days. Did you at Mesa even ask to be released? If not you didn't exercise your right to bark before your bite, that is unfortunate. What pressure did your union put on JO if you didn't threaten strike? What motivation/drive or fire did you light under his butt. If there is one thing I know about this man is that he wants to please the shareholders.. how would a possible temp loss of revenue to start up Freedom b/c MESA is on strike be to him? He wouldn't let it happen! He is a businessman and knows the business has to be opearting near 100% to be viable with his business plan.

"If we keep "raising the bar" where does it top out at?" Dru asks. Well an economist I am not, but as a fellow professional pilot I can tell you we are not even close!! If you are satisfied, then you and I should never share a cockpit, and I am not saying you feel satisfied. There are many formula's for calculating pay by the seat.. start there. Has Wiskey priced themselves out of the market? Apparently not, AirTran found them atractive. These small jets, flying in the market we are in is relatively new and pattern barganing is essential! If they (hypothetical) could find it viable to fly all routes with MESA airlines and get rid of most of the majors they would, but that would be detrimental to our future in this profession, and I think WE need to start doing our part to protect it, which I believe you current contract does not! -BEGIN SIDENOTE- Counting the beans is not our responsibilty!! If the specific airlines corporate plan fails to pay their pilots as professionals, then they failed to plan appropriately. If they go out of business so be it, another airline (which will treat pilots professionally) will rise up in its place. (I have hit the curb twice, I can speak from experience.) Taking risks is a huge part of what we do in negotiations (i.e. Comair), and mgt is trying to make what you are taking the risk for appear intangible, in your case I think JO won. -END SIDENOTE- As far as fee for departure goes JO continues to be succesful at what he does, but his negotiated fee is based upon all his expense (read what I wrote above) plus a profit. I again point out Whiskey being picked up by a viable airline with their predetermined fee, while they are able to pay their pilots and be in the black on the balance sheet. What I am saying is stop drinking the Koolaid, you didn't save your jobs with the TA, you gave JO an even nicer golden parachute.

One question- In the TA I noticed something about raises every 18mos, did the agreement get you COLA every year (an average 3.0-3.5% per year) or what percentage ever 18mos?

Dru you said it best "...Look at the entire picture and not just how it affects you. "

 

[nimtz]

The excuse that "WE GOT SCOPE" is a cop out.

Eagle guys got great scope in their last contract. Look how well that has made out for them. When you look at your pay checks (esp you fo's on the 70-90) seat I recommend you hang your head in shame. It's pretty humiliating to be a whore...

 

[azpilot]

While I agree that flying was being transferred to Freedom and there were plenty of people signing up I think the Mesa folks should have voted no. HP was writing something into its contract saying no non-union carriers could fly their routes. If passed that would have meant no Freedom.

Also, the turbo prop guys got sold down the river. There are now scumbag Freedom guys who will get to remain in the jet while those that have paid their dues are stuck in the 1900. FO's can't move to the jet, 18 month seat lock as Captain in turbo prop. What happens when you are in the 1900 and can't upgrade but people of the street are hired into the RJ?

That is total bullsh!t If you couldn't get anything better you shouldn't have signed a 5 year contract. If you couldn't get pay increases you should have worked a lot harder on the others sections of the contract like days off.

I place a lot of blame on ALPA for telling you to sign the thing. JO clearly won, you lost and I wish you luck.

 

[DruDown]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Real Now!

Whisky

I do not fly for Mesa - I left Mesa for several reasons including pay and QOL.

As you said, you are already benefiting from the industry leading contract - good for you!

Now put yourself in the shoes of a Mesa pilot, knowing and experiencing what they have in the past up to present day, including all of the whipsawing, the closure of CC Air, the creation of Freedumb (which had taken flying away from Mesa), the set up of a strike fund and strike centers, the influence of the mainline partners and the current condition of the industry and economy. While some of the Mesa pilots voted the TA down (which would have been my vote), I know that those who voted for it did not vote yes on a whim. I know that serious thought went into most of their decisions and weighing of the consequences. And yes, we all have a responsibility to all pilots, we also have individual responsibilities and responsibilities we are held accountable to fellow pilots at our company.

Especially as a regional pilot, understanding the life, you have to realize that this was not an easy decision for these pilots to make. If everyone is going to cry unity and brotherhood, how about supporting these pilots and understanding that the way they saw it, voting NO meant closure of Mesa and expansion of Freedumb. You can't tell me that 1400 more pilots on the street is better than what we have now, with Freedumb stopped, all MAG pilots flying and more jobs for furloughed mainline pilots (whom all regional pilots at some level have undercut by nature of the fact they work for a regional who has taken mainline flying).

Also, realize that this is all business. I don't believe for a minute that anything done by the Mesa pilots has been malicious in intent nor should they be treated as such. Do you honestly believe that the MEC thought, "Hey, let's take a sub-par contract and we can steal flying away from Air Wisconsin and SkyWest and ACA." I do not doubt, however that management had this in mind, as that is the nature of the business that they run. And remember - it's business, it's big dollars, and we are just the pawns in the process.

The more we all fight with each other, deny jumpseats, point fingers and have are efforts focused there, the more we all play into the hands of management and the more vulnerable we all are.

Let's all take this unfortunate situation and turn it into something to learn from so that as others go into negotiations similar mistakes, misinformation, negative effects, etc. are not repeated.

 

[bustinmins]

HP and the non-union addition to the CBA

From my observation and from a tactical stand point - HP could have written that into their contract but Freedom could have become unionized in their own house or alpa in the interim.

Thus you would have had them enter into that and screw all of the other Mesa guys who stood firm for CC Air to be reinstated on our list, captured Freedom under Mesa Air Group flying and gave some furloughed US Airways guys a ride. Think about it - who would you rather be competing with these days? Freedom guys who have no honor to the group or Mesa Guys who went out on a limb for ? I think it is a simple choice.

Granted the TA isn't up to the par that has been set forth by other regionals - but there were no concessions given. MAG didn't gain much but they did gain and they captured Freedom and an excellent scope clause while putting up the road blocks to prevent whipsawing later on.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Ok Dru, everything that you've listed is horible and given that the best solution would have been to shut it down!!! They will never have any power because JO knows all that he has to do is paint them into a corner and they'll run screaming for the first door. Jo has won he beat them and he beat them bad. He used the best tactics in the book and they fell hook line and sinker. Now on another note, lets be perfectly clear on something, mesa is not taking ANY flying for us and Air Wisconsin we have phased out the operation of turbo props on this property and by June they will be all gone making us an all jet operator. Now just because mesa was called to take over the runs of ten (10) turbo props, they come in yelling we are back and taking flying from Air Wisconsin and pushing them out of Den, not going to happen. TEN is all they have, ten small runs. Finally, mesa's act hurt the regional airline pilots negotiating position and it set it back several years. It was purely self serving and without reguard to any of the other carriers. Comair laid the first blow, Air Wisconsin beat them against the ropes and the fight was all but won, now mesa gets in the fight and stands there gets hit with a sucker punch and lost the entire battle.

Dru I will never understand their or your position on this subject nor will I ever respect the mesa people...

BTW just as soon as that j4j super senority hits watch how they began to scream foul.

WD.

 

[I.P. Freley]

Finally, mesa's act hurt the regional airline pilots negotiating position and it set it back several years. It was purely self serving and without reguard to any of the other carriers.

Of course their vote was self serving. Please direct us to the pilot who would possibly vote himself out of a job, and then explain it to his wife and kids thusly:

"I'm sorry, we can't keep the house because I couldn't, with a clear conscience, vote for a contract that would make it more difficult for Air Whiskey to negotiate their contract when their renewal comes up."

I think it has been explained fairly clearly what a corner they WERE painted into... They took what they believed was the best they could get, possibly against their will, but sure as shootin' they did it for selfish reasons. I would expect nothing less.

By the by, am I the only one who's noticed what a shambles this whole industry is in? Is it really any wonder that it's difficult to get a great contract out of ANYONE right now, much less the already difficult-to-deal-with Mesa management?

Also... Isn't this only Mesa's second contract? The first contract or two at MOST companies are not that good. I guess I am simply unsurprised by how this worked out.

But still... 8 days off on reserve? Who on earth agreed to THAT??

 

[RJPilott]

Please direct us to the pilot who would possibly vote himself out of a job, and then explain it to his wife and kids thusly:

I'll give you many pilots... Comair... they voted themselves out of a job for 3 months, and were prepared to do it for longer. I personally know several that voted themselves out of a job with Comair knowing that they would never return.. and they never did.

But still... 8 days off on reserve? Who on earth agreed to THAT??

Mesa did. They also agreed to 1.15 per diem and pay scales that reflect most Flight Attendant contracts. Actually, thats not fair to FA's. Most FA contracts have better pay and work rules. I think JB FA's start at 30/hr based on a 70+ hour month and that is their first contract. No Experience necessary....

actually i think they have to be 20 years old and no visible tattoos to get hired... pretty strict requirements huh?

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Thank you RJPilot I wasn't even going to respond to IP. I will say this though, Air Wisconsin is a group of SEASONED PROFESSIONAL. When it comes contract time we will be forced to look at the mesa deal and we will laugh. Comments will be made to the effect that mesa doesn't even count in fact they can barely complete a flight much less compete with us, that would be like putting Davis high school basket ball team up against the Lakers you guys aren't even in our league. You hurt CHQ and Mesaba who are now trying to better themselves and both will tow the line unlike you sniveling cowards. NO RESPECT!!!!!

WD.

 

[jborsdrf]

Seasoned Pros

Well that's it my family is only going to ride Airwis from now on not those sub par guys at MESA. Because "Trickdaddy the Coolest Member" is a "SEASONED PROFESSIONAL". Hey just because you guys fly 4 engine planes doesn't make you major airline pilots. Since when is a 3000 hour FO a seasoned pilot.

Trickdaddy your attitude is far more harmful to our industry than MESA's new contract.

Give me a f*cking break man if you were professional you'd shut your mouth. I used to have a lot of respect for you Airwis guys but now I'm starting to wonder. It takes a big man to hide behind his screen name and talk sh*t. It also takes a real to pro to threaten jumpseat privilages.

My pilot group is negotiating a new contract as we speak, with the added destraction of an ALPA sponsered ass* reaming from J4j. If you are unhappy with the contract we vote for you better have the balls to look me in the eye and say it to my face.

Anywho... 8 days off what the f*ck is that?

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Seasoned professional go for what they are really worth!!! What are you worth?? Just because we fly larger a/c (4 eng) has absolutly nothing to do with it and you will see just how bad that contract is when you get down to the bare bones of your companies negotiations. No doubt in my mind that it's going to hurt your position and if you don't think so than you are a fool!! Now as far as my attitude doing harm, your way off son I stood the line remember? I was willing to walk in spite of what it ment to me and my family to get what was fair. You might want to remember that next time before you start spouting off.

WD.

 

[jborsdrf]

Trick Daddy the Professional....

Hey chief maybe you need me to refresh your memory, when you guys almost struck the market for pilots was a slightly better. It's a sh*tload easier to hold the line when you might be able to find a job somewhere other than Home Depot. It would of been interesting to see what would of happened had MESA struck but will never know.

J.O. pulled a classic move right out of the post dereg strike breakers play book, scare em with an alter ego then trade them a piece of s*it contract to get rid of it. You'd think we'd all learn by now.

Anyway in regards to your attitude, it's fine to be an as*hole I just wish you'd channel your energy more effectively. It's a little late to let the MESA pilot group know how dissapoited you are after the ink is dry. Next time why not try lending your support before hand.