What CHQ pilots really think!

[shuttlepilot]

90k

Boy this thread is really taking off. To clarify to my response on page 2, i do have a wife, she makes 1/2 of what I do as a 4yr Saab captain. We do have a house in a nice neigbourhood. Not a cookie cutter house either but one that is extremly unique.
3br, 2bath,2200sq ft, basement, yard,less than 130k.Two cars one a '98, the other '02.
The wife is thinking about coming home to stay. All this on less than 60k a year. It's all in how you live and how you budget.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Boy this thread is really taking off. To clarify to my response on page 2, i do have a wife, she makes 1/2 of what I do as a 4yr Saab captain. We do have a house in a nice neigbourhood. Not a cookie cutter house either but one that is extremly unique.
3br, 2bath,2200sq ft, basement, yard,less than 130k.Two cars one a '98, the other '02.
The wife is thinking about coming home to stay. All this on less than 60k a year. It's all in how you live and how you budget.

Shuttle, Sounds like you guys are doing OK. Add a few kids in the mix and that 60 looks a lot smaller.

My question is why are intelligent folks such as the pilots on these boards defending payscales that do not even match what airline pilots made in the mid seventies? None of my posts have blasted the guy that is out flying an airplane, I am trying to get some eyes to open on what is occuring industry wide.

90k is Top of scale here folks(and probably a 20 year scale at that)....that means that most of the RJ pilots will be making 50 or 60k for a hundred seat jet!!! Convair 580 Pilots in 1970 made 40k!!!!!!! And that was when a new Cadillac cost $6000

Why do you now think that you are not worth more than a Coke truck driver makes??!! I really am trying to understand the mentality going on here. Sure you have 15 days off......and you are GONE the rest of the month...not working during the day and home at night...gone 24-7 for half the month. How is that better than the plumber working 22 days a month? HE IS HOME MORE THAN YOU ARE!!! Just ask your kids whose dad is home more, you or your neighbor in the 9 to 5 job.


I never have been able to understand why pilot will defend these crap RJ scales. I guess you have been programmed from day one in the pilot factories that you are not worth squat and now you believe it.

You do realize that there are only about 100K of us in the US don't you? Thats right, only about 100,000 ATP's in the country, and of that number there are a lot of the over 60 crowd that still show up in the ATP registry. Geeze people, wake up and realize that without us the United States does not have an air transportation service........You are worth a whole lot more than 20k a year or even 90k a year!! Yeah Yeah "it's what the market will bear" NO it's what you settle for, and the CEO's are taking the 7 figure bonuses all the way to the bank in a fit of hysterical laughter!!!!

 

[miles otoole]

Kerosene,

Why don't you quickly summarize a realistic solution for all the young uns out there? Other than stay a CFII making $12k a year until starting regional wages increase. Over half of all major airline CAs started out as a regional F/O making less than $20K a year.

Very few go straight to the majors without doing time in the minors. Oh and "go fly freight or corporate" won't do as most freight operators know as soon as they see a considerable increase in applications, salaries will plummet. Simple supply and demand combined with low barriers to entry.

Any ideas?

 

[410dude]

Kerosene,

Why don't you quickly summarize a realistic solution for all the young uns out there? Other than stay a CFII making $12k a year until starting regional wages increase. Over half of all major airline CAs started out as a regional F/O making less than $20K a year.

Very few go straight to the majors without doing time in the minors. Oh and "go fly freight or corporate" won't do as most freight operators know as soon as they see a considerable increase in applications, salaries will plummet. Simple supply and demand combined with low barriers to entry.

Any ideas?

It's actually quite a simple solution. Allow only pilots coming directly out of the military to fly for the airlines. That way all the civilian whores would not be eligible to fly for peanuts. Supply would be resticted, therefore demand and wages would go up. All you civilian CFIs could continue to teach private pilots and such because who cares how much they make as they are not eligible to become airline pilots.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Kerosene,

Why don't you quickly summarize a realistic solution for all the young uns out there? Other than stay a CFII making $12k a year until starting regional wages increase. Over half of all major airline CAs started out as a regional F/O making less than $20K a year.

Very few go straight to the majors without doing time in the minors. Oh and "go fly freight or corporate" won't do as most freight operators know as soon as they see a considerable increase in applications, salaries will plummet. Simple supply and demand combined with low barriers to entry.

Any ideas?

The big difference is that the "half " of the Captains at the majors starting at 20k did it on 19 to 37 seat turbo props!!!! Not a 100 seat jet! Big Big difference here.

Solution?

Mainline MEC's need to grow some nads and shut down the 70 to 100 seat RJ at regional carriers right now.

Regional MEC's need to grow some nads and shut down the crap wages for the 50 seaters right now.

I know this will require team work....something that has been sorely lacking lately, but bottom line, If nobody will fly them for the garbage wage, the pay will go up......and in reality, since the RJ is actually more costly to operate on a CASM basis, I will bet that the CEO's will cease to have their infactuation with them and go back to the cheaper airplanes to operate....you know, 737's and 320's.

Nobody else is going to do it for us, burying your head in the sand will not help you. It does not affect me as bad as it does you guys, The RJ put me out of my 737 seat four years ago, but so far there is not much threat of an RJ taking my 747 seat away.....yet. But unless it is stopped now, It will eventually affect everyone in aviation that is trying to make a living at it.

 

[Nindiri]

Have you considered the possibility that if RJs go away, they will not necessarily be replaced with a similar number of bigger jets. There is a very real possibility that there would simply be fewer jobs. 90K is much better than no salary at all.

 

[NuGuy]

You do realize that there are only about 100K of us in the US don't you? Thats right, only about 100,000 ATP's in the country, and of that number there are a lot of the over 60 crowd that still show up in the ATP registry. Geeze people, wake up and realize that without us the United States does not have an air transportation service........You are worth a whole lot more than 20k a year or even 90k a year!! Yeah Yeah "it's what the market will bear" NO it's what you settle for, and the CEO's are taking the 7 figure bonuses all the way to the bank in a fit of hysterical laughter!!!!

KS, I have to agree, but there is more at work than just that.

A friends wife is a DMV. She told me exactly the same thing was going on in the vet business. Vet school is exceedingly expensive and hard to get into, so you would think there would be lots of pricing power on the other end.

But she said that the people going through vet school now were mostly trust fund babies. A place to send "smart" kids who don't have the people skills for an MD, and get them out their parent's basement for another 4 years. They've never had to work hard a day in their life. So now, they get out of vet school, and have NO idea how to run a practice or the true value of money.

What happens is that either they go to work for one of the big practice conglomerates, like the VCA, where they make 50-60k/yr OR they get daddy to fund a practice, which runs about 100-125k for a full service office, and then run it at a discount, because there was no "cost of money".

The old timers holler like we do, but they get the same response that we get: the same blank stare and "90k is GOOD money!". Not a thought in their head about the time value of money, cost of services or recouping an investment in training (which for them, was zero). Sound familiar?

Interesting parallel, I thought...

Nu

 

[low-key]

I'm a CHQ pilot and here is what i really think. I think that Marisa Tomei is smokin hot. My Cousin Vinny is on TBS.....whooo hooo my HPN overnight is now that much better.

Kep is my hero.

 

[NuGuy]

I'm a CHQ pilot and here is what i really think. I think that Marisa Tomei is smokin hot. My Cousin Vinny is on TBS.....whooo hooo my HPN overnight is now that much better.

Kep is my hero.

Marisa is smoking hot, but in MCV, she was WAY too skinny. She put on a few LBs for "What a woman wants" with Mel Gibson, and I thought she looked MUCH better.

Nu

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

KS, I have to agree, but there is more at work than just that.

A friends wife is a DMV. She told me exactly the same thing was going on in the vet business. Vet school is exceedingly expensive and hard to get into, so you would think there would be lots of pricing power on the other end.

But she said that the people going through vet school now were mostly trust fund babies. A place to send "smart" kids who don't have the people skills for an MD, and get them out their parent's basement for another 4 years. They've never had to work hard a day in their life. So now, they get out of vet school, and have NO idea how to run a practice or the true value of money.

What happens is that either they go to work for one of the big practice conglomerates, like the VCA, where they make 50-60k/yr OR they get daddy to fund a practice, which runs about 100-125k for a full service office, and then run it at a discount, because there was no "cost of money".

The old timers holler like we do, but they get the same response that we get: the same blank stare and "90k is GOOD money!". Not a thought in their head about the time value of money, cost of services or recouping an investment in training (which for them, was zero). Sound familiar?

Interesting parallel, I thought...

Nu

I think you have found the problem...I spent two days on this thread trying to convince some of these bozo's that they are worth much more than these crap RJ wages and you hit the nail on the head........Blank stare with the "But 90k is good money." 90k is great for some office bozo that works 40 hours a week and is tasked with making sure the financial reports come out on time, or ensures that the shipment of coffee makers arrives on time....it is piss-poor for a guy in command of a 120,000 pound 500 mile an hour 30 million doller piece of equipment with 100 souls on board picking it's way around a bunch of level 4's and 5's..................................."But 90k is GOOD money!! huh-huh-huh" Kind of gives me a Beavis and Butthead vibe when I think about it.

 

[miles otoole]

KS, I have to agree, but there is more at work than just that.

A friends wife is a DMV. She told me exactly the same thing was going on in the vet business. Vet school is exceedingly expensive and hard to get into, so you would think there would be lots of pricing power on the other end.

But she said that the people going through vet school now were mostly trust fund babies. A place to send "smart" kids who don't have the people skills for an MD, and get them out their parent's basement for another 4 years. They've never had to work hard a day in their life. So now, they get out of vet school, and have NO idea how to run a practice or the true value of money.

What happens is that either they go to work for one of the big practice conglomerates, like the VCA, where they make 50-60k/yr OR they get daddy to fund a practice, which runs about 100-125k for a full service office, and then run it at a discount, because there was no "cost of money".

The old timers holler like we do, but they get the same response that we get: the same blank stare and "90k is GOOD money!". Not a thought in their head about the time value of money, cost of services or recouping an investment in training (which for them, was zero). Sound familiar?

Interesting parallel, I thought...

Nu

So,
You're saying that most regional new hire F/Os are trust fund babies who don't know the value of money because their parents still pay all the bills? I think that's unrealistic and an unfair assumption. Most F/Os today struggle economically and will for a longer period of time than their predecessors 10 years ago when upgrades weren't 5 years +. Combine that with the fact that housing prices across the country have recently exploded and you'll see that F/Os today are much worse off than their predecessors.
Also, FWIW, a friend just finished her rotations (externships) as a VET at Ohio State and said every single person in her class except for two were over 30 and had huge loans that would take years to pay off.
What's your solution to increase pay across the industry?

 

[low-key]

NuGuy, yes she was BANGIN in WWW, fo sh-o

 

[chrisdahut24]

Typical example of why this has become such a crap job. Thanks to you for not looking to the future. Enjoy that 90K a year 10 years from now when it will be worth the 25K a year you are making now.

No where did I state whether or not it is a lot of money, or a fair wage. I simply think that if you have trouble living off that kind of money, you may have a problem budgeting money. One that even a $150K or $250K paycheck won't solve.

 

[dav8or]

I fly for CHQ and here is what I believe:

"What I Believe."

I believe in rainbows and puppy dogs and fairy tales.

And I believe in the family - Mom and Dad and Grandma.. and Uncle Tom, who waves his penis.

And I believe 8 of the 10 Commandments.

And I believe in going to church every Sunday, unless there's a game on.

And I believe that sex is one of the most beautiful, wholesome and natural things.. that money can buy.

And I believe it's derogatory to refer to a woman's breasts as "boobs", "jugs", "winnebagos" or "golden bozos".. and that you should only refer to them as "hooters".

And I believe you should put a woman on a pedestal.. high enough so you can look up her dress.

And I believe in equality, equality for everyone.. no matter how stupid they are, or how much better I am than they are.

And, people say I'm crazy for believing this, but I believe that robots are stealing my luggage.

And I believe I made a mistake when I bought a 30-story 1-bedroom apartment.

And I believe the Battle of the Network Stars should be fought with guns.


That's what I believe.

Me and Steve Martin think alike.

On the subject of 170/190:

If you were at CHQ when the last CBA was voted on and you voted for it then you can't say "this airplane belongs at the majors"

If you were hired after the CBA and believe we should not be flying this airplane than you should have voted with your feet and got a job elsewhere.

Bottom line is the industry has change and no matter what happens it will never go back to what it was. If we are changing things then I think we should jack ticket prices up to what they need to be, make the passengers dress up for travel like they used to, all F/A's will be single under thirty and weigh less than 120lbs.

As for pay the way to make money in this industry is to use the time you have off. I get 16-18 days off a month so I think it is a pretty good wage for a part-time job. In my time off I have started another bussiness. Eventually that bussiness will surpass that flying income and I wil no longer need it.

It doens't matter if you get paid 150k but your budget is 165k then you will always feel like you don't make enough money. Make a budget for what you can make or find another carreer.

 

[surfnfly]

Have you considered the possibility that if RJs go away, they will not necessarily be replaced with a similar number of bigger jets. There is a very real possibility that there would simply be fewer jobs. 90K is much better than no salary at all.

Have you flown on a airplane recently? Traffic is up above pre 9/11 levels and is not gonna decline. Forcast is for continued grow so if RJ's go away where are all the seats come from? Back to props, no there will be more 737, 320, 777, 787 to handle the increase with more mainline jobs. That is what every pilot on this board needs to be pulling for, f#ck that 90k for a 190 I made that as a 3 yr FO on the 320. Try raising the bar for once instead of letting it get lower and lower.

 

[170Mech]

So just how much do you need to make to make these ridiculous daily threads go away? 250K? 500K? How about an even mill?
This just in..... McDonald's fry guys, after being given shiat by BK fry guys for scooping frys for low wages, are now holding out for a company car, a mansion, and a yacht!

 

[surfnfly]

I fly for CHQ and here is what I believe:

"What I Believe."

I believe in rainbows and puppy dogs and fairy tales.

And I believe in the family - Mom and Dad and Grandma.. and Uncle Tom, who waves his penis.

And I believe 8 of the 10 Commandments.

And I believe in going to church every Sunday, unless there's a game on.

And I believe that sex is one of the most beautiful, wholesome and natural things.. that money can buy.

And I believe it's derogatory to refer to a woman's breasts as "boobs", "jugs", "winnebagos" or "golden bozos".. and that you should only refer to them as "hooters".

And I believe you should put a woman on a pedestal.. high enough so you can look up her dress.

And I believe in equality, equality for everyone.. no matter how stupid they are, or how much better I am than they are.

And, people say I'm crazy for believing this, but I believe that robots are stealing my luggage.

And I believe I made a mistake when I bought a 30-story 1-bedroom apartment.

And I believe the Battle of the Network Stars should be fought with guns.


That's what I believe.

Me and Steve Martin think alike.

On the subject of 170/190:

If you were at CHQ when the last CBA was voted on and you voted for it then you can't say "this airplane belongs at the majors"

If you were hired after the CBA and believe we should not be flying this airplane than you should have voted with your feet and got a job elsewhere.

Bottom line is the industry has change and no matter what happens it will never go back to what it was. If we are changing things then I think we should jack ticket prices up to what they need to be, make the passengers dress up for travel like they used to, all F/A's will be single under thirty and weigh less than 120lbs.

As for pay the way to make money in this industry is to use the time you have off. I get 16-18 days off a month so I think it is a pretty good wage for a part-time job. In my time off I have started another bussiness. Eventually that bussiness will surpass that flying income and I wil no longer need it.

It doens't matter if you get paid 150k but your budget is 165k then you will always feel like you don't make enough money. Make a budget for what you can make or find another carreer.

why should we have to get a second job? On my days off I want to be surfing,fishing,hunting,golfing,diving,f#cking, anything but working.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

170Mech,

You AMFA or IAM?

Don't worry, you have as big a stake in this as we pilots do. If pilots fly the thing for 90k, what are they gonna be paying you to turn wrenches?

It affects us all.

 

[dav8or]

why should we have to get a second job? On my days off I want to be surfing,fishing,hunting,golfing,diving,f#cking, anything but working.

Then budget accordingly

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Then budget accordingly

Still trying to figure out what the heck that has to do with being paid what you should for the responsibility that you have?

Dang fellas, I can budget accordingly for $1000 bucks a month......Doesn't mean I am gonna FLY an airplane for that!!! Heck I can budget accordingly and stay on welfare the rest of my life!!!!!!

If you do not want to live well.....That is your problem, go find a less demanding job and be an average joe for all I care, just quit polluting our profession with your limp wristed approach to the American dream!

Hey look at me girls...I are an airline pilot....I make less than any airline pilot in history but ain't I cool!!!!!

Holy crap, go play professional basketball or something, I am sure they will love your philosophy, I am good enough to play pro ball, but instead of 3 milllion, I'll settle for half that and a nifty uniform!!!