well that was quick.....

[gutshotdraw]

In the old days, when it was time to upgrade, an SIC would go to Hilton Head for five days of "Captain Charm School." Then they would come back a week later for a recurrent cycle in the sim with a Standards Captain observing the ride. Providing that went ok, the pilot would start wearing four stripes and would go back on the line awaiting a line check but flew as SIC.

Once the line check was completed (several days and a minimum of 6 legs), the pilot was signed off as a "Captain-qualified First Officer" but DID NOT receive their pay bump and did not act as PIC until the next delivery or until the next GIV PIC moved up to the GV. In my case, I finished my line check in September but didn't get paid as a PIC until late December. Which also became my new anniversary date for pay raises (summer original DOH). There's more to BOTH of those stories.

Now, follow along here. As to Nacho's point, when the furlough occurred (pre-integration BTW), NJI was forced to furlough nearly 50 FO's despite the entire division being right-sized in comparison to NJA. Nearly all were in the GV. That left the GV woefully short-staffed. At the time, none of the crossover FO's had fulfilled their seat lock. So, the company moved a bunch of NJI GIV Captains over to the GV which badly skewed the PIC/SIC ratio in that fleet.

That left a huge shortage of PIC's in the GIV. Per the terms of the LOA, 1/3 of those spots would be filled by NJA (which they were) and the remainder by native NJI F/O's. Voila, you have a bunch of relatively junior GIV PIC's.

Despite the conspiracy theories of the black helicopter crowd, that is why it happened the way it happened. But that's okay. They'll "get even" with the "Dirty Thirty" when the GIV fleet displaces and the junior PIC's have to go jerk gear in a Phenom. Or they go find a better job in a Fortune 500 flight department. Or go back to their airline gig. Both of which have already happened.

 

[BentOver]

Or they go find a better job in a Fortune 500 flight department. Or go back to their airline gig. Both of which have already happened.

Luckily they have one of the most sought after types and are current. There have been a ton of jobs that require a Gulfstream type and currency. For those that choose to head to a fortune 500 place, they should have plenty of opportunities if they wish.

Can't say that I don't look forward to hearing about guys jumping ship and heading elsewhere. (not GLC guys, everyone in general.)

 

[gutshotdraw]

It's happening Bent. Three of our senior GV guys just left to go fly for a former client, I heard about the two Excel FO's going to be A320 Captains at Air Asia, and two GIV PIC's I know are going to take their major airline recall. I'm sure there are more.

 

[fischman]

I know the XL FO's that went to Asia. Both were FANTASTIC. I hated to see them go, but understood.

 

[gutshotdraw]

I don't blame them Fisch. If I were below 1500 in seniority, I'd be looking too. Of course, I'm always listening just in case...

 

[BentOver]

I know the XL FO's that went to Asia. Both were FANTASTIC. I hated to see them go, but understood.

To add onto that... NJA is going to lose probably some of the most experienced SIC's that NJA ever saw... Not a rag on any of the PIC's there, but the experience of those that were hired from say '05 and beyond (just a generalization) had, in general, a wealth of airline/corporate experience. Versus a low time new hire back in the day who may have viewed NJA as a stepping stone at first.


"If" this 121 shortage does happen, I'd expect (or hope) on even higher attrition than is being predicted.

 

[fischman]

I don't blame them Fisch. If I were below 1500 in seniority, I'd be looking too. Of course, I'm always listening just in case...

I know what you mean. I'm part of that demographic.

 

[acaTerry]

Now, having RTS own and run us again? I could get behind that notion!

Don't excite yourself...it's like hoping for an airline flight that gets you home before 9:30 pm. Just won't happen, but we can all dream. And I'd love it to happen too.

 

[B19 Flyer]

You mean like the IBT taking dues out of my severance pay when my airline went out of business. Then telling that they had no obligation to assist any of us in our job search, you mean that kind of union stuff.

I was actually thinking about the 495 at NJ, but I'll admit.. it's a pretty good example.

All the NJ pilots that weren't furloughed will hop and down and say how great the 495 were treated by the union, but the bottom line is they were still furloughed and put out on the street.

While they are furloughed, nobody else took .05 of a pay cut to help them out. I don't want to hear about donations, etc. I want to know what they did to open the contract in an attempt to save any of the jobs at all. (even a single one!) Typical union crap, the only sacrifice they made are those that were low on the seniority list.

 

[brokeflyer]

yeah sucks dont it. Its sad that a pilot even needs to be in a union at all.

 

[CA1900]

While they are furloughed, nobody else took .05 of a pay cut to help them out.

Actually, many hundreds of our pilots took a much larger percentage of a pay cut, saving millions of dollars for the company. They participated in those measures to save those jobs, and it took more than your ".05" off the payroll.

Guess what? Management furloughed them anyway.

Nice try. Concessions do not save jobs. How many times must this be proven?

 

[brokeflyer]

haha b19 got burnt

 

[Hawkered]

B19,

We had voluntary measures and nobody will know for sure if it delayed the furlough or not. Most of us took a reduced schedule for a time for a reduction in pay. It was the union's idea and it was coordinated by the union.

 

[Hogprint]

B19,

We had voluntary measures and nobody will know for sure if it delayed the furlough or not. Most of us took a reduced schedule for a time for a reduction in pay. It was the union's idea and it was coordinated by the union.

This has been explained ad nauseam to him but he still sticks to the party line. Some forever have their heads in the sand.

Concessions never saved a job.

 

[fischman]

i was actually thinking about the 495 at nj, but i'll admit.. It's a pretty good example.

all the nj pilots that weren't furloughed will hop and down and say how great the 495 were treated by the union, but the bottom line is they were still furloughed and put out on the street.

while they are furloughed, nobody else took .05 of a pay cut to help them out. I don't want to hear about donations, etc. I want to know what they did to open the contract in an attempt to save any of the jobs at all. (even a single one!) typical union crap, the only sacrifice they made are those that were low on the seniority list.

Concessions do NOT save jobs... Why would we cheapen our cba for no reason???

 

[imacdog]

Guys don't be too hard on him. B probably doesn't even believe his own bullcrap but when the check comes in, he still has to do his job. Instead of feeling sorry for him, feel sorry for those dumb enough to pay him.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Concessions do NOT save jobs... Why would we cheapen our cba for no reason???

Concessions not only save jobs, they save companies fischman. That's why when an airline goes into bankruptcy because the union won't negotiate in good faith on their own, why jobs are saved.

AMR is about to find that out... yet again. Last time they went to the brink of bankruptcy before saving thousands of pilot and administrative jobs (along with probably the company) by taking concessions.

This time they will be court imposed. Either way, it's opening up the contract so the company spends less than it takes in. Like it or not, those are concessions. And they always save jobs.

Problem is, you still find it perfectly OK to sacrifice those below you on the seniority list to maintain your greed in the name of "brotherhood."

Yea, right...

 

[fischman]

Concessions not only save jobs, they save companies fischman. That's why when an airline goes into bankruptcy because the union won't negotiate in good faith on their own, why jobs are saved.

AMR is about to find that out... yet again. Last time they went to the brink of bankruptcy before saving thousands of pilot and administrative jobs (along with probably the company) by taking concessions.

This time they will be court imposed. Either way, it's opening up the contract so the company spends less than it takes in. Like it or not, those are concessions. And they always save jobs.

Problem is, you still find it perfectly OK to sacrifice those below you on the seniority list to maintain your greed in the name of "brotherhood."

Yea, right...

Well guess what? We aren't on the verge of bankruptcy. We are not an airline. We know that any concession given will only line the pockets of our illustrious CEO with gold. We aren't that stupid.

Every airline that threatened furloughs if they didn't get concessions would furlough ANYWAY after they GOT the concession. If the company can't afford the CBA, they shouldn't sign it!

Seniority rules at a union shop. That means that the junior guys go first in a furlough. And yes, I would rather be on furlough than cheapen our CBA with a concession. If that displeases you, then I'm thrilled.


It looks like your firm is getting their checks from NetJets now? How are things at Avantair?

 

[dime line]

Concessions not only save jobs, they save companies fischman. That's why when an airline goes into bankruptcy because the union won't negotiate in good faith on their own, why jobs are saved.

AMR is about to find that out... yet again. Last time they went to the brink of bankruptcy before saving thousands of pilot and administrative jobs (along with probably the company) by taking concessions.

This time they will be court imposed. Either way, it's opening up the contract so the company spends less than it takes in. Like it or not, those are concessions. And they always save jobs.

Problem is, you still find it perfectly OK to sacrifice those below you on the seniority list to maintain your greed in the name of "brotherhood."

Yea, right...

Yea Right.....Concessions and then management bonuses. Ok DA-19, lets hear it.

American drops exec bonus
Outcry from unions that took pay cuts prompts end of retention bonuses; exec pensions stay in place.
April 18, 2003: 6:03 PM EDT

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - American Airlines announced Friday that its top executives have agreed to give up retention bonuses after an outcry from leaders of unions whose members had agreed to deep pay cuts earlier this week.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Published on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 by the Washington Post [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]CEOs You Don't Want in the Cockpit [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]by Harold Meyerson[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It's a good thing that Donald J. Carty, the chairman and chief executive of American Airlines, doesn't also pilot one of its planes. If he did, and if the plane went into an uncontrolled dive and he handled it the same way he's running the company, he'd bail out as the plane fell to earth, drift dreamily down on a golden parachute, land lightly amid the carnage and give himself a nice cash bonus for coming through unscathed. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Over the past week it has become clear that Carty has engaged in the same kind of double-dealing, to conceal the same kind of double standards, that last year made his fellow Texan and CEO Ken Lay a household name. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]While Carty was convincing American's pilots, mechanics, flight attendants and baggage handlers that they had to accept major pay cuts (ranging from 15.6 percent to 23 percent, and kicking in on May 1) if the airline was to avoid bankruptcy, he was secretly crafting a "retention bonus" for American's top seven executives that would reward them for staying at their posts until 2005. The bonuses, all but one set at twice these executives' annual salaries (Carty's would total $1.6 million), weren't keyed to performance -- a prudent proviso, because American lost $5.3 billion in 2001-02 and things aren't exactly looking up yet. Instead, they seem to derive from the maxim of business guru Woody Allen, who once noted that 90 percent of life is just showing up. Carty's corollary is that if you run the company, just being there can be grounds for doubling your pay so long as nobody's on to you. Nor was this all. Even as top American executives were telling the pilots that the company would eliminate their pension plans if it had to file for bankruptcy, Carty and his crew had secretly created a special pension trust for the company's top 45 executives that no creditor could even touch during a bankruptcy proceeding. More wondrous still, Carty and three other top honchos were to be paid extra for administering this trust. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It gets worse. [/FONT]

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0422-04.htm

 

[CA1900]

Concessions not only save jobs, they save companies...

Repeating the same falsehood over and over doesn't make it any more true. It sounds like it should be true, but throughout the history of aviation, it just doesn't happen that way.

Here's how it normally works:

• Company says things are tight, and they need concessions to avoid furloughs.
• Pilots grant concessions.
• Company furloughs anyway because the business demand doesn't require those pilots.
• Remaining pilots now cost less, and management rewards itself with a fat bonus, earned by a flat-out lie to the employees.

We've seen these antics before. That's why we're not falling for it.

 

[Willy21]

So tell me why NetJets management said the Voluntary Measures program was no longer needed in the fall of '09? I thought concessions saved jobs. I guess I was way off on that one.

 

[dime line]

OH here is some more, check out this CEO's pay, 165million!(after he fired 850 people) How about them apples

Three weeks before Christmas in 2008, Philippe Dauman and Thomas E. Dooley, two top executives at Viacom Inc., wrote a “Dear Colleagues” letter to the employees of the media conglomerate informing them that the company was downsizing its workforce by 7 percent.
That represented 850 jobs, 850 human beings, who would be looking for work in the midst of the worst job market in 25 years. The layoffs were not performance based. Indeed, the men who wrote that Dec. 4, 2008, memo -- “Phil” and “Tom” is how they signed their names -- insisted that the departing employees should be proud of their contributions to the company that no longer needed them.

In an accompanying press release, Viacom also said that it hoped that the staff reductions, coupled with pay freezes for senior executives, would save some $200 million in 2009. It happened that way, too: That year’s financials showed the company’s revenues were nearly as high as in 2008, but with less overhead.
Apparently pleased with their own cost-cutting efforts, Dooley, Dauman (pictured), and Viacom Chairman Sumner Redstone paid themselves $165 million in salary, bonuses and stock options for the first nine months of the 2010 fiscal year. That figure is not a typo. Nor is it an isolated example.


http://www.realclearpolitics.com/ar...ay_and_job_losses_are_they_linked_111950.html

 

[G4dude]

To add onto that... NJA is going to lose probably some of the most experienced SIC's that NJA ever saw... Not a rag on any of the PIC's there, but the experience of those that were hired from say '05 and beyond (just a generalization) had, in general, a wealth of airline/corporate experience. Versus a low time new hire back in the day who may have viewed NJA as a stepping stone at first.


"If" this 121 shortage does happen, I'd expect (or hope) on even higher attrition than is being predicted.

That has been my observation too, Bent. And I think we will lose almost all our FOs, which is good news for pilots wanting to hire on at NJA.

 

[G4dude]

Actually, many hundreds of our pilots took a much larger percentage of a pay cut, saving millions of dollars for the company. They participated in those measures to save those jobs, and it took more than your ".05" off the payroll.

Guess what? Management furloughed them anyway.

Nice try. Concessions do not save jobs. How many times must this be proven?

I wasn't in the union when this happened, and am gratified the union did this. Not normal union behavior, for which it should be commended. This is the best union I have ever seen, by the way, with the possible exception of the SWA pilots union. I still don't agree with much of what NJASAP does and says, but when credit is due...

 

[OPECJet]

That has been my observation too, Bent. And I think we will lose almost all our FOs, which is good news for pilots wanting to hire on at NJA.

Won't be any hiring if you allow scope to erode.

 

[G4dude]

Won't be any hiring if you allow scope to erode.

True, if you are correct about the impact of the scope discussions. I just don't agree that NJA is trying to divert planes and pilots to EJM. Luthi's ravings don't impress me at all. He is a legend in his own mind, according to a couple of gold tie guys I have met recently.

 

[OPECJet]

True, if you are correct about the impact of the scope discussions. I just don't agree that NJA is trying to divert planes and pilots to EJM. Luthi's ravings don't impress me at all. He is a legend in his own mind, according to a couple of gold tie guys I have met recently.

Fair enough. What's your theory behind the company wanting relief?

 

[G4dude]

Fair enough. What's your theory behind the company wanting relief?

My understanding is they want the same amount of outsourcing as is the current agreement, but they want discretion on when to use them instead of being allowed so many per quarter, which effectively reduces outsourcing available during our busy quarters. This seems reasonable to me, the alternative being NJA would have to hire an excess of pilots just to service the busy times, rendering us overstaffed the rest of the year. This would be featherbedding, which in its latest iteration is what is sinking the US Postal Service, by the way.

 

[nordo_2]

My understanding is they want the same amount of outsourcing as is the current agreement, but they want discretion on when to use them instead of being allowed so many per quarter, which effectively reduces outsourcing available during our busy quarters. This seems reasonable to me, the alternative being NJA would have to hire an excess of pilots just to service the busy times, rendering us overstaffed the rest of the year. This would be featherbedding, which in its latest iteration is what is sinking the US Postal Service, by the way.

G4 dude, you seem to have a very strong opinion regarding unions. Why do you continue to be bullied at NJ? With you’re vast, and extensive list of credentials, and like-minded good’ol boy network in the corporate world. Surely you can find a better fit for your ideological needs.

 

[G4dude]

G4 dude, you seem to have a very strong opinion regarding unions. Why do you continue to be bullied at NJ? With you’re vast, and extensive list of credentials, and like-minded good’ol boy network in the corporate world. Surely you can find a better fit for your ideological needs.

The "Guffstream" fleet meets my intellectual needs just fine. We have a bunch of very nice folks here.