Wacky new take-off procedure at Pinnacle

[lowlycfi]

By the way were not doing this because of some MESA pilot cant rotate right are we?

This AD has nothing to do with low time F/Os here in the U.S. It came from a few non-us airlines that had a problem with pilots over rotating with ice on the wings and stalling the airplane.

Ok so now I'm confused. Is this Mesa's fault or not?

 

[siucavflight]

Yes, it is always Mesas fault.

 

[CRJ puppy]

Typical action from the FAA: Ready!!! SHOOT!!!! Aim! This is gay.

Trust me...you don't know what "gay" is!

Watch what you say dearie!

 

[Morning Wood]

So some jacka$$ takes off with ice on the airplane and they have to change the FD procedure? How about don't take off with ice on the airplane???

How about using the wing anti- ice too.

 

[Top Gum]

Someone asked if the 10 degrees is a limit. No, it’s the initial target.

Was there any training on this in the sim at your company?

I really don’t understand how these companies and the FAA can accept the liability associated with this without some training. I know it’s no big deal to takeoff without the FD most of us do it anyway. My point is without some documented training on this procedure all it’s going to take is for someone to loose an eng at V1 and screw it all up and the lawyers are going to have a paycheck to retire on.

 

[xjcaptain]

Someone asked if the 10 degrees is a limit. No, it’s the initial target.

Was there any training on this in the sim at your company?

I really don’t understand how these companies and the FAA can accept the liability associated with this without some training. I know it’s no big deal to takeoff without the FD most of us do it anyway. My point is without some documented training on this procedure all it’s going to take is for someone to loose an eng at V1 and screw it all up and the lawyers are going to have a paycheck to retire on.

Exactly what type of training would you like to receive in how to rotate @ 3deg sec to 10 deg? Should that require a sim session? Perhaps a take home study guide to be followed by a written test?


Last time I checked that's just basic flying and airmanship. O.K.......O.K......if you insist, here is the training. At Vr slowly pull aft on the controls..... count softly "1 one thousand"....."2 one thousand"......."3 one thousand" You should now be at 10 degrees pitch. Check you airspeed and adjust your pitch to fine tune your speed. Not really all that tough now was it?

 

[DiverDriver]

My understanding at AWAC:

This was caused by two European operators who took off with ice on the wings and rotated fast which caused roll excursions.

Transport Canada (NOT FAA) mandated this change. FAA just followed it. It's been coming for a bit. This started before the FAA crackdown on SWA/AA/Delta etc.

Wing heat must be on ANY time you taxi and the SAT is 5C or less. No choice on it whether there is visible moisture or not. They (AD generating agency) are assuming we can't determine for ourselves if there is visible moisture, freezing precip, surface contamination while we taxi. That's how it used to be. Turn the wing on if you need it. If you deice then don't use it until takeoff. Now, we have to always turn it on 5C or less SAT and then turn it OFF if it's not needed for departure (so we can flex). I don't get it. We aren't allowed to determine if their could be moisture on the taxi but on the takeoff we are still allowed a decision. Hmmmmm.

The 10 degree pitch is the second part in that, yes, we are limited to 3 degrees per second rotation up to 10 degrees. The rate is what we've always used I thought. Just setting 10 degrees on the FD is easier to judge than setting 12 I guess. Hit TO/TO then run the wheel nose up (downward movement) two turns and then click 4 times. The FD should drift down to about 10.

A pain? Yes. Impossible? No.

 

[aeropharoh]

time to trade all the 200's

 

[say again]

Exactly what type of training would you like to receive in how to rotate @ 3deg sec to 10 deg? Should that require a sim session? Perhaps a take home study guide to be followed by a written test?


Last time I checked that's just basic flying and airmanship. O.K.......O.K......if you insist, here is the training. At Vr slowly pull aft on the controls..... count softly "1 one thousand"....."2 one thousand"......."3 one thousand" You should now be at 10 degrees pitch. Check you airspeed and adjust your pitch to fine tune your speed. Not really all that tough now was it?

Exactly!! In all honesty, Im not surprised. Basic airmanship has really gone down the tubes, just like the industry.

 

[labbats]

If we had the same minimums in part 121 as part 135 there would probably be a lot more basic airmanship.

 

[yournextFO]

Same here at ASA. I think this procedure is totally unsafe and unnessasary. With all the FAA stuff going on about runway incursions and trying to reduce the amount of time were heads down in the cockpit during ground ops how can they put this procedure into affect! It takes at least 20 seconds to get the FD to do what you want! Once you put it in pitch mode the FD wants to go to zero degrees. When you try and roll it up to 10 degrees it keeps falling back down to 0 degrees!
Just think your taxing out of some airport like LEX at 6am on reduced rest and while your taking the runway your F/O is heads down f@$&ing with the flight director! This is crazy and I have already sent an email to the FAA about it!

By the way were not doing this because of some MESA pilot cant rotate right are we?

Each click is 1/2 degree. So it takes 20 clicks of the pitch wheel to get the FD to stay at 10 deg. Easy, right?

Whatever happened to just flying the plane?

 

[CFI2766]

In a year and a half of flying the ATR, I've yet to see a single person use any VS mode for takeoff.

What's the big deal?

 

[JoeMerchant]

In a year and a half of flying the ATR, I've yet to see a single person use any VS mode for takeoff.

What's the big deal?

....that's because we are aviators...not system managers...Everything is a big deal on the RJ.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Decided to put you on the list Joe.... maybe later I'll think about taking you off...

...

Ignorance is bliss...you must be living in bliss...

I don't put anyone on the "ignore list"....I don't mind reading opposing ideas.....

 

[ultrarunner]

Ok, so someone call Honeywell, Collins, or whoever, and tell 'em to reprogram the FD to whatever you want.

If you want 10 degrees in TOGA mode, you get it programmed for 10 degrees.

Some geek in cubicle can knock this out quick like, and it gets rolled out in the field just as fast.

In the mean time, leave it off. We've been making successful take offs for decades with no FD's!!!

--Ultra