Wacky new take-off procedure at Pinnacle

[JoeMerchant]

Amen, Joe. Amen.

....there is hope if we can agree....:beer:

Recipe flying has replaced aviating......

 

[RiddleEagle18]

This new procedure is due to AD 2008-08-06.

Apparently this is due to some CRJ's that had uncommanded roll during take off because of some snow/ice on leading surface or just behind the leading surface of the wing.

The revised takeoff limitation is to reduce high pitch attitudes during rotation. As stated our proceedure is to limit it to approx. 10 degrees.

See the AD docket on www.regulations.gov and you can send comments to the rulemakers.

cr

Are you guys actually limited to 10 degrees or is that just the initial pitch target.

At comair it is the initial pitch target at 3 degrees per second but if that results in anything over v2 +10-20 then we are to adjust the pitch to bring it back to v2+10-20. Of course all while not using anything more than 3 degrees per second.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Are you guys actually limited to 10 degrees or is that just the initial pitch target.

At comair it is the initial pitch target at 3 degrees per second but if that results in anything over v2 +10-20 then we are to adjust the pitch to bring it back to v2+10-20. Of course all while not using anything more than 3 degrees per second.

YGTBSM! Whatever happened to "taking off".......

Do we have a procedure yet for walking out to the aircraft? I didn't know rotating was an algebraic formula......

 

[PCL_128]

Honestly guys, it's really not that damned difficult to take off an RJ. Rotate smoothly to about 12 degrees pitch and hold it. All these frickin' numbers and procedures are making things more complicated than just flying the damned airplane.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Honestly guys, it's really not that damned difficult to take off an RJ. Rotate smoothly to about 12 degrees pitch and hold it. All these frickin' numbers and procedures are making things more complicated than just flying the damned airplane.

....that's enough common sense....we can't have that.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What CRJ do you fly Joe? The 200 or 900?

 

[PCL_128]

An airplane is an airplane. Well, except for that french crap that you're driving around nowadays.

 

[JoeMerchant]

What CRJ do you fly Joe? The 200 or 900?

.....is the CRJ the Space Ship Enterprise....or is it an airplane? Taking off just shouldn't be that big a deal....Heck even PCL128 agrees.....and he flew the thing....

You can't replace aviating with recipe flying.....Procedures have replaced skill, experience, and common sense....Might as well put a monkey up there......

 

[JoeMerchant]

An airplane is an airplane. Well, except for that french crap that you're driving around nowadays.

....hey it's one of the few good things to come out of France....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This message is hidden because JoeMerchant is on your ignore list.

Decided to put you on the list Joe.... maybe later I'll think about taking you off...

...

 

[N813CA]

Due to runway incursions Comair has decided to not reset the FD, and now we take off with it off. We also now do taxi with our wing anti-ice on when required.

 

[91100 100 set]

Chautauqua has a new CRJ POH revision effective today, and (unless I didn't read it carefully enough), nothing in there about not using the FD for takeoff. TOGA buttons before takeoff. But we do switch to speed mode immediately after takeoff. The call used to be "gear up, speed mode" (which usually gives you somewhere in the neighborhood of v2+10 or +20 depending on how quickly or slowly you rotated), now it's not with the gear up, you're supposed to select speed mode at v2+15.

And as far as I understand, we are now using wing anti-ice for taxi at or below 5C in icing conditions.

 

[mtsupilot376]

So here at ASA, the way I read the bulletin, it said something about replacing the computers which control the Flight Director. I believe that they are trying to install ones in the entire fleet that reduce the initial TOGA takeoff pitch from 15 down to 12 degrees. However, the AD added a new limitation that limits our take offs to a 3 deg/sec rate up to 10 degrees. So my question is this.

After all these computers are installed are we just going to be hitting TOGA again and taking off ( the old way), hitting TOGA and doing the stupid pitch mode takeoff (to 10 deg)., or hitting TOGA having the FD go to 12 degrees and just limiting ourselves to 10 deg? WTF?

If you aren't confused by my complicated post already please feel free to reply.

I just hope we are not stuck with doing yet another procedure before while taking the active.

 

[ironspud]

Children of magenta.

 

[KingAirKiddo]

I don't care if I have the flight director on takeoff or not. When I first started at Comair 5 years ago we always took off raw data, so I'll just go back to the way we used to do it. It is kind of funny how knee jerk and stupid the FAA is, though.

 

[1x1]

This new take-off gayness mandated by the FAA is just political grand-standing to cover their arse for being busted for all the b/s they allowed to go on with SWA. Same reason for their crackdown on American 80's last month.
I wish they could do something useful and AD the oil companies on fuel pricing, or AD management on their pay.

 

[Crowing Rooster]

"Are you guys actually limited to 10 degrees or is that just the initial pitch target.

At comair it is the initial pitch target at 3 degrees per second but if that results in anything over v2 +10-20 then we are to adjust the pitch to bring it back to v2+10-20. Of course all while not using anything more than 3 degrees per second."


10 degrees is a target. The manual states, "Upon reaching Vr, a smooth rotation is made toward the target pitch attitude of 10 degrees in one continuous motion. Use a rotation approxamately 3 degrees per second." "...adjust the pitch attitude to maintain V2 +10-15kts to acceleration altitude." "..When target airspeed is attained, select speed mode."

This proceedure is close to our last except we do not use the FD and with the FD we would climb to at 3 per/s and stay tucked into it for the target pitch up.

As far as wing anti-ice, OAT 5c or less and moisture(AKA any thing that could freeze or accumulate on the wing) we taxi out with wing anti-ice on. Except when type IV has been applied. Then we wait until we take the runway to put wing anti-ice on.
This is so we do not heat the type IV up and cause it to run off the wing and loose anti-ice protection.

 

[Hawker800]

Don't you guys have a pitch sinc button on the yoke on these things. Just curious.

 

[Crowing Rooster]

We do have pitch sync.

 

[j41driver]

Apparently this is due to some CRJ's that had uncommanded roll during take off because of some snow/ice on leading surface or just behind the leading surface of the wing.

So some jacka$$ takes off with ice on the airplane and they have to change the FD procedure? How about don't take off with ice on the airplane???