Wacky new take-off procedure at Pinnacle

[N813CA]

Due to runway incursions Comair has decided to not reset the FD, and now we take off with it off. We also now do taxi with our wing anti-ice on when required.

 

[91100 100 set]

Chautauqua has a new CRJ POH revision effective today, and (unless I didn't read it carefully enough), nothing in there about not using the FD for takeoff. TOGA buttons before takeoff. But we do switch to speed mode immediately after takeoff. The call used to be "gear up, speed mode" (which usually gives you somewhere in the neighborhood of v2+10 or +20 depending on how quickly or slowly you rotated), now it's not with the gear up, you're supposed to select speed mode at v2+15.

And as far as I understand, we are now using wing anti-ice for taxi at or below 5C in icing conditions.

 

[mtsupilot376]

So here at ASA, the way I read the bulletin, it said something about replacing the computers which control the Flight Director. I believe that they are trying to install ones in the entire fleet that reduce the initial TOGA takeoff pitch from 15 down to 12 degrees. However, the AD added a new limitation that limits our take offs to a 3 deg/sec rate up to 10 degrees. So my question is this.

After all these computers are installed are we just going to be hitting TOGA again and taking off ( the old way), hitting TOGA and doing the stupid pitch mode takeoff (to 10 deg)., or hitting TOGA having the FD go to 12 degrees and just limiting ourselves to 10 deg? WTF?

If you aren't confused by my complicated post already please feel free to reply.

I just hope we are not stuck with doing yet another procedure before while taking the active.

 

[ironspud]

Children of magenta.

 

[KingAirKiddo]

I don't care if I have the flight director on takeoff or not. When I first started at Comair 5 years ago we always took off raw data, so I'll just go back to the way we used to do it. It is kind of funny how knee jerk and stupid the FAA is, though.

 

[1x1]

This new take-off gayness mandated by the FAA is just political grand-standing to cover their arse for being busted for all the b/s they allowed to go on with SWA. Same reason for their crackdown on American 80's last month.
I wish they could do something useful and AD the oil companies on fuel pricing, or AD management on their pay.

 

[Crowing Rooster]

"Are you guys actually limited to 10 degrees or is that just the initial pitch target.

At comair it is the initial pitch target at 3 degrees per second but if that results in anything over v2 +10-20 then we are to adjust the pitch to bring it back to v2+10-20. Of course all while not using anything more than 3 degrees per second."


10 degrees is a target. The manual states, "Upon reaching Vr, a smooth rotation is made toward the target pitch attitude of 10 degrees in one continuous motion. Use a rotation approxamately 3 degrees per second." "...adjust the pitch attitude to maintain V2 +10-15kts to acceleration altitude." "..When target airspeed is attained, select speed mode."

This proceedure is close to our last except we do not use the FD and with the FD we would climb to at 3 per/s and stay tucked into it for the target pitch up.

As far as wing anti-ice, OAT 5c or less and moisture(AKA any thing that could freeze or accumulate on the wing) we taxi out with wing anti-ice on. Except when type IV has been applied. Then we wait until we take the runway to put wing anti-ice on.
This is so we do not heat the type IV up and cause it to run off the wing and loose anti-ice protection.

 

[Hawker800]

Don't you guys have a pitch sinc button on the yoke on these things. Just curious.

 

[Crowing Rooster]

We do have pitch sync.

 

[j41driver]

Apparently this is due to some CRJ's that had uncommanded roll during take off because of some snow/ice on leading surface or just behind the leading surface of the wing.

So some jacka$$ takes off with ice on the airplane and they have to change the FD procedure? How about don't take off with ice on the airplane???

 

[siucavflight]

It takes at least 20 seconds to get the FD to do what you want!

Really? You may want to go back to the training center and brush up a little if this is the case.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So some jacka$$ takes off with ice on the airplane and they have to change the FD procedure? How about don't take off with ice on the airplane???

Is there a connection with the every 5000' the slight roll with ap off?

 

[trip]

Really? You may want to go back to the training center and brush up a little if this is the case.

If you know of a faster way to set 10 deg. on the taxi out please share?

 

[siucavflight]

If you know of a faster way to set 10 deg. on the taxi out please share?

Just think it, and so it shall be.

 

[viper548]

So some jacka$$ takes off with ice on the airplane and they have to change the FD procedure? How about don't take off with ice on the airplane???

One guy $hits himself, now we all have to wear diapers

 

[lowlycfi]

By the way were not doing this because of some MESA pilot cant rotate right are we?

This AD has nothing to do with low time F/Os here in the U.S. It came from a few non-us airlines that had a problem with pilots over rotating with ice on the wings and stalling the airplane.

Ok so now I'm confused. Is this Mesa's fault or not?

 

[siucavflight]

Yes, it is always Mesas fault.

 

[CRJ puppy]

Typical action from the FAA: Ready!!! SHOOT!!!! Aim! This is gay.

Trust me...you don't know what "gay" is!

Watch what you say dearie!

 

[Morning Wood]

So some jacka$$ takes off with ice on the airplane and they have to change the FD procedure? How about don't take off with ice on the airplane???

How about using the wing anti- ice too.

 

[Top Gum]

Someone asked if the 10 degrees is a limit. No, it’s the initial target.

Was there any training on this in the sim at your company?

I really don’t understand how these companies and the FAA can accept the liability associated with this without some training. I know it’s no big deal to takeoff without the FD most of us do it anyway. My point is without some documented training on this procedure all it’s going to take is for someone to loose an eng at V1 and screw it all up and the lawyers are going to have a paycheck to retire on.

 

[xjcaptain]

Someone asked if the 10 degrees is a limit. No, it’s the initial target.

Was there any training on this in the sim at your company?

I really don’t understand how these companies and the FAA can accept the liability associated with this without some training. I know it’s no big deal to takeoff without the FD most of us do it anyway. My point is without some documented training on this procedure all it’s going to take is for someone to loose an eng at V1 and screw it all up and the lawyers are going to have a paycheck to retire on.

Exactly what type of training would you like to receive in how to rotate @ 3deg sec to 10 deg? Should that require a sim session? Perhaps a take home study guide to be followed by a written test?


Last time I checked that's just basic flying and airmanship. O.K.......O.K......if you insist, here is the training. At Vr slowly pull aft on the controls..... count softly "1 one thousand"....."2 one thousand"......."3 one thousand" You should now be at 10 degrees pitch. Check you airspeed and adjust your pitch to fine tune your speed. Not really all that tough now was it?

 

[DiverDriver]

My understanding at AWAC:

This was caused by two European operators who took off with ice on the wings and rotated fast which caused roll excursions.

Transport Canada (NOT FAA) mandated this change. FAA just followed it. It's been coming for a bit. This started before the FAA crackdown on SWA/AA/Delta etc.

Wing heat must be on ANY time you taxi and the SAT is 5C or less. No choice on it whether there is visible moisture or not. They (AD generating agency) are assuming we can't determine for ourselves if there is visible moisture, freezing precip, surface contamination while we taxi. That's how it used to be. Turn the wing on if you need it. If you deice then don't use it until takeoff. Now, we have to always turn it on 5C or less SAT and then turn it OFF if it's not needed for departure (so we can flex). I don't get it. We aren't allowed to determine if their could be moisture on the taxi but on the takeoff we are still allowed a decision. Hmmmmm.

The 10 degree pitch is the second part in that, yes, we are limited to 3 degrees per second rotation up to 10 degrees. The rate is what we've always used I thought. Just setting 10 degrees on the FD is easier to judge than setting 12 I guess. Hit TO/TO then run the wheel nose up (downward movement) two turns and then click 4 times. The FD should drift down to about 10.

A pain? Yes. Impossible? No.

 

[aeropharoh]

time to trade all the 200's

 

[say again]

Exactly what type of training would you like to receive in how to rotate @ 3deg sec to 10 deg? Should that require a sim session? Perhaps a take home study guide to be followed by a written test?


Last time I checked that's just basic flying and airmanship. O.K.......O.K......if you insist, here is the training. At Vr slowly pull aft on the controls..... count softly "1 one thousand"....."2 one thousand"......."3 one thousand" You should now be at 10 degrees pitch. Check you airspeed and adjust your pitch to fine tune your speed. Not really all that tough now was it?

Exactly!! In all honesty, Im not surprised. Basic airmanship has really gone down the tubes, just like the industry.

 

[labbats]

If we had the same minimums in part 121 as part 135 there would probably be a lot more basic airmanship.

 

[yournextFO]

Same here at ASA. I think this procedure is totally unsafe and unnessasary. With all the FAA stuff going on about runway incursions and trying to reduce the amount of time were heads down in the cockpit during ground ops how can they put this procedure into affect! It takes at least 20 seconds to get the FD to do what you want! Once you put it in pitch mode the FD wants to go to zero degrees. When you try and roll it up to 10 degrees it keeps falling back down to 0 degrees!
Just think your taxing out of some airport like LEX at 6am on reduced rest and while your taking the runway your F/O is heads down f@$&ing with the flight director! This is crazy and I have already sent an email to the FAA about it!

By the way were not doing this because of some MESA pilot cant rotate right are we?

Each click is 1/2 degree. So it takes 20 clicks of the pitch wheel to get the FD to stay at 10 deg. Easy, right?

Whatever happened to just flying the plane?

 

[CFI2766]

In a year and a half of flying the ATR, I've yet to see a single person use any VS mode for takeoff.

What's the big deal?

 

[JoeMerchant]

In a year and a half of flying the ATR, I've yet to see a single person use any VS mode for takeoff.

What's the big deal?

....that's because we are aviators...not system managers...Everything is a big deal on the RJ.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Decided to put you on the list Joe.... maybe later I'll think about taking you off...

...

Ignorance is bliss...you must be living in bliss...

I don't put anyone on the "ignore list"....I don't mind reading opposing ideas.....

 

[ultrarunner]

Ok, so someone call Honeywell, Collins, or whoever, and tell 'em to reprogram the FD to whatever you want.

If you want 10 degrees in TOGA mode, you get it programmed for 10 degrees.

Some geek in cubicle can knock this out quick like, and it gets rolled out in the field just as fast.

In the mean time, leave it off. We've been making successful take offs for decades with no FD's!!!

--Ultra