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W.Times editorial: Obama secretly ends FFDO program?

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SuperFLUF

lazy Mc Donald's pilot
Joined
Jul 9, 2003
Posts
639
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/17/guns-on-a-plane-obama-secretly-ends-program-that-l/


EDITORIAL: Guns on a plane

Obama secretly ends program that let pilots carry guns


Tuesday, March 17, 2009

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/17/guns-on-a-plane-obama-secretly-ends-program-that-l/

After the September 11 attacks, commercial airline pilots were allowed to carry guns if they completed a federal-safety program. No longer would unarmed pilots be defenseless as remorseless hijackers seized control of aircraft and rammed them into buildings.
Now President Obama is quietly ending the federal firearms program, risking public safety on airlines in the name of an anti-gun ideology.
The Obama administration this past week diverted some $2 million from the pilot training program to hire more supervisory staff, who will engage in field inspections of pilots.
This looks like completely unnecessary harassment of the pilots. The 12,000 Federal Flight Deck Officers, the pilots who have been approved to carry guns, are reported to have the best behavior of any federal law enforcement agency. There are no cases where any of them has improperly brandished or used a gun. There are just a few cases where officers have improperly used their IDs.
Fewer than one percent of the officers have any administrative actions brought against them and, we are told, virtually all of those cases “are trumped up.”
Take a case against one flight officer who had visited the Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles within the last few weeks. While there, the pilot noticed that federal law enforcement officers can, with the approval of a superior, obtain a license plate that cannot be traced, a key safety feature for law enforcement personnel. So the pilot asked if, as a member of the federal program, he was eligible. The DMV staffer checked and said “no.” The next day administrative actions were brought against the pilot for “misrepresenting himself.” These are the kinds of cases that President Obama wants to investigate.
Since Mr. Obama's election, pilots have told us that the approval process for letting pilots carry guns on planes slowed significantly. Last week the problem went from bad to worse. Federal Flight Deck Officers - the pilots who have been approved to carry guns - indicate that the approval process has stalled out.
Pilots cannot openly speak about the changing policies for fear of retaliation from the Transportation Security Administration. Pilots who act in any way that causes a “loss of confidence” in the armed pilot program risk criminal prosecution as well as their removal from the program. Despite these threats, pilots in the Federal Flight Deck Officers program have raised real concerns in multiple interviews.
Arming pilots after Sept. 11 was nothing new. Until the early 1960s, American commercial passenger pilots on any flight carrying U.S. mail were required to carry handguns. Indeed, U.S. pilots were still allowed to carry guns until as recently as 1987. There are no records that any of these pilots (either military or commercial) ever causing any significant problems.
Screening of airplane passengers is hardly perfect. While armed marshals are helpful, the program covers less than 3 percent of the flights out of Washington D.C.'s three airports and even fewer across the country. Sky marshals are costly and quit more often than other law-enforcement officers.
Armed pilots are a cost-effective backup layer of security. Terrorists can only enter the cockpit through one narrow entrance, and armed pilots have some time to prepare themselves as hijackers penetrate the strengthened cockpit doors. With pilots, we have people who are willing to take on the burden of protecting the planes for free. About 70 percent of the pilots at major American carriers have military backgrounds.
Frankly, as a matter of pure politics, we cannot understand what the administration is thinking. Nearly 40 House Democrats are in districts were the NRA is more popular than House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. We can't find any independent poll in which the public is demanding that pilots disarm. Why does this move make sense?
Only anti-gun extremists and terrorist recruits are worried about armed pilots. So why is the Obama administratioadministration catering to this tiny lobby at the expense of public safety?
 
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/17/guns-on-a-plane-obama-secretly-ends-program-that-l/


EDITORIAL: Guns on a plane

Obama secretly ends program that let pilots carry guns


Tuesday, March 17, 2009

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/17/guns-on-a-plane-obama-secretly-ends-program-that-l/

After the September 11 attacks, commercial airline pilots were allowed to carry guns if they completed a federal-safety program. No longer would unarmed pilots be defenseless as remorseless hijackers seized control of aircraft and rammed them into buildings.
Now President Obama is quietly ending the federal firearms program, risking public safety on airlines in the name of an anti-gun ideology.
The Obama administration this past week diverted some $2 million from the pilot training program to hire more supervisory staff, who will engage in field inspections of pilots.
This looks like completely unnecessary harassment of the pilots. The 12,000 Federal Flight Deck Officers, the pilots who have been approved to carry guns, are reported to have the best behavior of any federal law enforcement agency. There are no cases where any of them has improperly brandished or used a gun. There are just a few cases where officers have improperly used their IDs.
Fewer than one percent of the officers have any administrative actions brought against them and, we are told, virtually all of those cases “are trumped up.”
Take a case against one flight officer who had visited the Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles within the last few weeks. While there, the pilot noticed that federal law enforcement officers can, with the approval of a superior, obtain a license plate that cannot be traced, a key safety feature for law enforcement personnel. So the pilot asked if, as a member of the federal program, he was eligible. The DMV staffer checked and said “no.” The next day administrative actions were brought against the pilot for “misrepresenting himself.” These are the kinds of cases that President Obama wants to investigate.
Since Mr. Obama's election, pilots have told us that the approval process for letting pilots carry guns on planes slowed significantly. Last week the problem went from bad to worse. Federal Flight Deck Officers - the pilots who have been approved to carry guns - indicate that the approval process has stalled out.
Pilots cannot openly speak about the changing policies for fear of retaliation from the Transportation Security Administration. Pilots who act in any way that causes a “loss of confidence” in the armed pilot program risk criminal prosecution as well as their removal from the program. Despite these threats, pilots in the Federal Flight Deck Officers program have raised real concerns in multiple interviews.
Arming pilots after Sept. 11 was nothing new. Until the early 1960s, American commercial passenger pilots on any flight carrying U.S. mail were required to carry handguns. Indeed, U.S. pilots were still allowed to carry guns until as recently as 1987. There are no records that any of these pilots (either military or commercial) ever causing any significant problems.
Screening of airplane passengers is hardly perfect. While armed marshals are helpful, the program covers less than 3 percent of the flights out of Washington D.C.'s three airports and even fewer across the country. Sky marshals are costly and quit more often than other law-enforcement officers.
Armed pilots are a cost-effective backup layer of security. Terrorists can only enter the cockpit through one narrow entrance, and armed pilots have some time to prepare themselves as hijackers penetrate the strengthened cockpit doors. With pilots, we have people who are willing to take on the burden of protecting the planes for free. About 70 percent of the pilots at major American carriers have military backgrounds.
Frankly, as a matter of pure politics, we cannot understand what the administration is thinking. Nearly 40 House Democrats are in districts were the NRA is more popular than House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. We can't find any independent poll in which the public is demanding that pilots disarm. Why does this move make sense?
Only anti-gun extremists and terrorist recruits are worried about armed pilots. So why is the Obama administratioadministration catering to this tiny lobby at the expense of public safety?

Why would an FFDO need an untraceable license plate?
 
I'll be very interested to see if this is even true. This whole article is an opinionated editorial from an extremely conservative "newspaper". There is absolutely no news about cancellation of the FFDO program anywhere that I can find besides this article, not even on the FFDO's website.
 
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I'll be very interested to see if this is even true. This whole article is an opinionated editorial from an extremely conservative "newspaper". There is absolutely no news about cancellation of the FFDO program anywhere that I can find besides this article, not even on the FFDO's website.
You think something like that would be on there?

The last one to know about it will be you and the other FFDO's in the field.

I'm guessing you didn't read the full article... it explained further in that he's not ending the program right this second but, rather, that he's beginning the "witch hunt" steps that he will use to shut it down IF he can find the ammunition to do so. There's no other reason to start examining the behavior of the nation's "most-behaved" LEO's.

Personally, I'm not greatly surprised; it will take quite a bit of lobbying to keep the program alive with this Dem-controlled administration.
 
And Soccer Moms everywhere say "Good! I was never comfortable with guns so close to my kids anyway!" This is "good" politics, not good policy. I support the program, but keep in mind that there are a good many irrational people who don't, and many of them vote Dem.
 
I'll be very interested to see if this is even true. This whole article is an opinionated editorial from an extremely conservative "newspaper". There is absolutely no news about cancellation of the FFDO program anywhere that I can find besides this article, not even on the FFDO's website.

The article doesn't say they cancelled the program. It says they diverted $2M from it. In a bureaucracy when you want to kill a program, you vote yes for it in public ("we're all for arming the pilots--no one says were not!") but then in private defund it which is the same as cancelling it.

This is a page right out of the financial crisis: they didn't get rid of oversight of the financial institutions because that would look irresponsible. But they cut the funding for the SEC inspections and the like to the point that it was simply impossible for them to do their jobs.

Imagine if you will that someone decided that FAA line checks were worthless and should be discontinued. You couldn't pass a law or delete a regulation stating this--the media and other organizations would riducule it. So you just cut the budget to the FAA for line check airmen to the point where they couldn't fund them.
 
This is the POTUS that ALPA wanted in there....Be careful what you wish for.....
 
Hmmmmm has anyone read the news in Fergus Falls, MN......Could he have been an FFDO? Maybe a little oversight is a good thing. There is no evidence it is a "witch hunt" as the paranoid writer tries to indicate in his OP-ED letter. I think it is about holding people accountable. I've had that gun pointed at me on three different occasions (in the cockpit) while the idiot owner of the gun was unlocking the trigger lock. I was not happy.

All indications are that Prez. Obama is a supporter of the program. He supports the program so much that he wants to make sure that individuals charged with their commision as FFDO do the right thing!
 
The authors evidence is that some training money will be spent on supervision instead?

When did training slow down? Why did training slow down? Is it simply because now we're reaching a level where most who want to be one have gone through the training?

People really need to start evaluating and discerning between editorial opinion and facts based on evidence.

You shouldn't have to agree with a news outlet's point of view. They shouldn't have one! See above.
 
I love it...

We spend millions of dollars so a few pilots can tote guns that won't be used from behind a door that won't be opened, but it's too expensive for the FAA to overhaul our flight time/duty time limits.

Half of us are flying so tired most of the time that we wouldn't be able to aim a gun if we wanted to!!
 
And Soccer Moms everywhere say "Good! I was never comfortable with guns so close to my kids anyway!" This is "good" politics, not good policy. I support the program, but keep in mind that there are a good many irrational people who don't, and many of them vote Dem.

FAIL

Soccer moms were the more ardent supporters of the FFDO program. Most likely due to their (un) natural prediliction for putting the responsibility for securing their own safety on the backs of others, as well as their complete aversion to risk in all its forms, no matter how insignificant.

Dam the reasons, they supported it, and I was glad. They may drive minivans into convienience stores while yaking on their cell phones with alarming regularity, but don't give them poop for this. The ignoranus Dumbocraps may still believe that harming the FFDO program will please them, but it wouldn't be teh 135th mistake they have made in 2009, now would it?
 
This Administration has already sent strong signals that it is hostile to the whole concept of defensive firearms in the hands of citizens. Sounds like par for the course to me.
 
Originally Posted by Lear70

I'm guessing you didn't read the full article...he's not ending the program... but...rather...beginning...IF...other...reason...s tart...


A whole lot of nothing, you must been a fan of faux news.
Are you smoking crack?

Trying to figure out why you chopped up the paragraph, because I didn't see ANY kind of logic to what you wrote or why...

Feel free to elaborate so everyone else can understand, too.
 
I say good riddance. This program was entirely precipitated by a bunch of gun nuts that thought they would get the right to "concealed carry" when there was absolutely NO reason for them to have a weapon.

ALPA was opposed to this program from the get-go if you recall. It was only when the gun nuts formed APSA that ALPA relented and grudgingly supported the program.

Believe me, we had one of the original APSA nuts. He failed the FFDO program the first time, passed the second time and eventually was terminated when he "forgot" his weapon in a public restroom.

The FFDO program will never have any value until you build a flight deck door with a gun port in it. Otherwise, the door has to be opened for the FFDO to have any effect on the situation. The Turkish 737 crash proved the strength of the door. In that crash, the F/O died because the rescuers couldn't get through the flight deck door for 45 minutes.

FFDOs? Good riddance. We've already had one monkey put a round through an airframe. Its only a matter of time before one of these guys shoots either himself or his flying partner.

$2M for this program? Total waste of taxpayer money.
 
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I say good riddance. This program was entirely precipitated by a bunch of gun nuts that thought they would get the right to "concealed carry" when there was absolutely NO reason for them to have a weapon.

ALPA was opposed to this program from the get-go if you recall. It was only when the gun nuts formed APSA that ALPA relented and grudgingly supported the program.

Believe me, we had one of the original APSA nuts. He failed the FFDO program the first time, passed the second time and eventually was terminated when he "forgot" his weapon in a public restroom.

The FFDO program will never have any value until you build a flight deck door with a gun port in it. Otherwise, the door has to be opened for the FFDO to have any effect on the situation. The Turkish 737 crash proved the strength of the door. In that crash, the F/O died because the rescuers couldn't get through the flight deck door for 45 minutes.

FFDOs? Good riddance. We've already had one monkey put a round through and airframe. Its only a matter of time before one of these guys shoots either himself or his flying partner.

$2M for this program? Total waste of taxpayer money.

thank you, someone that sees the program for what it is. A BIG WASTE OF MONEY and SMOKE AND MIRRORS.
 
Why would terrorists go through the hassle of airport security when they could walk onto a number of Greyhound buses without any resistance and blow them up?
 
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Why? Because a bus wreck makes the news after the second or third commercial, and is usually never heard of again. An airplane - that gets replayed over and over again. It's all about media exposure and creating terror (hence the name - cowardly pig-copulating beheading extremist mooslim terrorist). They will target whatever will cause the most fear and panic. In Europe (Madrid) trains worked - for 95% of the US, a train wouldn't be relevant - it's not how we go visit grandma. Airplanes, those we use, those make the news.
 
Are you guys kidding? The next event won't involve airplanes. They'll drop a railroad bridge in front of the City of New Orleans or limpet a cruise ship 5 miles outside the harbor.
 
Believe me, we had one of the original APSA nuts. He failed the FFDO program the first time, passed the second time and eventually was terminated when he "forgot" his weapon in a public restroom.

.

There's gun owners who appreciate hunting with firearms. For me it's about having a good excuse to get out in the woods into nature and watch the sun rise.

Then there is the pro 'right to carry' crowd. I call it
'small penis syndrome'.

Pilots are not cops. Their primary concern and thought process is flying the airplane and completing the trip safely aeronautically. It is not enforcing laws or their weapon or using it.

True LEO's on the other hand ARE charged with law enforcement and their weapon IS a constant integral part of that.

I can easily see how 'Joe Bob pilot' could leave his weapon on the back of the toilet after taking a big dump.

Pilots are very good at we do with airplanes, but good with handling deadly weapons on the job we are not.

If you want to play cop, go be a cop.

For the guy who had the weapon pointed at him...for the safety of your fellow pilots you need to report those occurrences.
 
I say good riddance. This program was entirely precipitated by a bunch of gun nuts that thought they would get the right to "concealed carry" when there was absolutely NO reason for them to have a weapon.

And feared by hand wringing liberals who believe that the government will protect them (it won't, in fact the courts have held that the police in fact do not have a responsibility to protect individual citizens (Warren v. District of Columbia). Personally, I consider protecting myself and my family plenty of reason to have concealed carry (that and that pesky Second Amendment, which liberals go to great lengths to trash and reinterpret). As far as on the flight deck - the same still applies. Most of the problems I am aware of with the program arise from the lame brained procedures developed for handling the weapon - in, out, in, out, in, out. I am not aware of any other security or law enforcement protocol which involves as much handing of the weapon as FFDO, which is definitely contrary to safe practices - but that blame lies at the feet of those running the program.

The FFDO program will never have any value until you build a flight deck door with a gun port in it.

Not true, as the door is opened in flight a number of times for a number of reasons. Also, deadheading FFDO's should be carrying, acting in fact as Sky Marshalls (or do you believe they have no value either?).

If you just hate guns, then be honest and say, "I am in favor of only allowing criminals to have guns. I prefer honest, law abiding citizens to be disarmed and vulerable." Don't hide behind nonsense and rhetoric.

Otherwise, the door has to be opened for the FFDO to have any effect on the situation.

At this point it becomes obvious you have no idea what you are talking about or slept through secutity training. In either event, I'm not going to provide you with anymore information if you're on a fishing expedition.

$2M for this program? Total waste of taxpayer money.

Actually, compared to virtually any other law enforcement program out there, this one is a huge bargain in terms of the amount of manpower/$ spent.

If you want to cite meaningless statistics, to date it is an overwhelming success: 100%
There has not be a single US airliner hijacked since the inception of the FFDO program. Find another program with a similar success rate (and yes, I am resorting to hyperbole at this point - I certainly realize there are many other factors involved, but the fact remains that record stands).

Additionally, by all accounts the training the FFDO's recieve is outstanding and extends well beyond simply marksmanship. It's a good program that deserves to be made better, not ridiculed by minions of Chuckie "the American people don't care about porky amendments" Schumer .
 
FFDOs? Good riddance. We've already had one monkey put a round through an airframe. Its only a matter of time before one of these guys shoots either himself or his flying partner.

$2M for this program? Total waste of taxpayer money.

Couldn't agree with you more. Most FFDOs that I've flown with don't even bother putting it on the belt in-flight, so what's the point of having it if it's locked safely in the box?
 
Also, deadheading FFDO's should be carrying, acting in fact as Sky Marshalls (or do you believe they have no value either?).
.

No they have value. They eat up all of the first class meals which I guess creates skychef jobs?

They also eat up a high revenue First Class seat.
 
If you want to cite meaningless statistics, to date it is an overwhelming success: 100%
There has not be a single US airliner hijacked since the inception of the FFDO program. Find another program with a similar success rate (and yes, I am resorting to hyperbole at this point - I certainly realize there are many other factors involved, but the fact remains that record stands).

I think you give FFDO program WAY too much credit. There are many other agencies involved that keep flying safe.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I can't think of a single instance when an FFDO prevented something bad from happening.
 
I think you give FFDO program WAY too much credit. There are many other agencies involved that keep flying safe.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I can't think of a single instance when an FFDO prevented something bad from happening.


Ha, ha, ha, oh boy that's good. Other agencies keeping us safe? Like who?
You are not privy to the the FFDO program otherwise you may have some more information on what they know and do.
 
I say good riddance. This program was entirely precipitated by a bunch of gun nuts that thought they would get the right to "concealed carry" when there was absolutely NO reason for them to have a weapon.

ALPA was opposed to this program from the get-go if you recall. It was only when the gun nuts formed APSA that ALPA relented and grudgingly supported the program.

Believe me, we had one of the original APSA nuts. He failed the FFDO program the first time, passed the second time and eventually was terminated when he "forgot" his weapon in a public restroom.

The FFDO program will never have any value until you build a flight deck door with a gun port in it. Otherwise, the door has to be opened for the FFDO to have any effect on the situation. The Turkish 737 crash proved the strength of the door. In that crash, the F/O died because the rescuers couldn't get through the flight deck door for 45 minutes.

FFDOs? Good riddance. We've already had one monkey put a round through an airframe. Its only a matter of time before one of these guys shoots either himself or his flying partner.


1.Wrong or are you accusing me of being a "gun nut"

2.ALPA promoted this program, do you recall? "Qualified to Fly, qualified to Defend" I believe that was the slogan they used.

3.What?

4.The pilot in question was not a "monkey". He made a mistake. Have you ever made a mistake? want to know how many accidental discharges other LEO's have on a yearly basis? it might surprise you.
 

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