W.Times editorial: Obama secretly ends FFDO program?

[DiverDriver]

"They're true patriots"

http://video.msn.com/?mkt=en-us&fg=email&vid=646e34f9-8374-49b1-89c8-07866f17940f&from=06/64

 

[Singlecoil]

I think the point many are trying to make here is that the true weakness in the system on 9/11 was the "common strategy" which the terrorist well knew and exploited. Who else on here watched the "Barney Fife" video on hijacking every year in recurrent? We were trained that hijacking was a big joke and it was a waste of time to discuss the subject every year. Just let them into the cockpit and lead them to believe that people outside the cockpit had control over the flight and where the airplane went. Then you face forward and have your throat cut. That is what happened on 9/11. That will never happen again. Kill everybody in the back, we don't care, but we are not opening the door. Period. 9/11 will never happen again unless it is an inside job with sleeper agents. I don't feel the need to be armed to prevent a terrorist takeover, but if some do, I have no problem with that.

 

[Britpilot]

Again, just because you carry a gun you don't have to look down on everybody else. TSA does screen people out, regardless of what you think.

Yep, police. They are at every passenger airport. Not many, but they are there.

Flying public. The showbomber was brought down by passengers and not by a someone with a gun. The last time someone used a weapon in the a/c ended up in a tragegy when passenger taking prescription drugs was MISTAKENLY killed. (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/12/07/airplane.gunshot/index.html).

Am I? Read the first sentence from Wiki:

In the United Kingdom, the majority of police officers do not carry firearms, except in special circumstances.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_use_of_firearms_in_the_United_Kingdom)


I don't want to know "everything". What I would want know is to see an independent study on how useful this program is.

See, if there secrecy, there is less control. That leads to abuse of resources. This program is controversial anyway as a lot of industry experts as well as pilots question it's usefulness. As a participant you obviously have a biased opinion.

So, you're not "breaking" anything new to me. Actually, I don't care anyway.

1. Exactly where did I say that I look down on everyone else?

2.The TSA MISSES 95% of prohibited items during screening. Their numbers not mine.

3.How many police officers are on the airplane? What role do they play in airplane security in flight?

4.Yes you are wrong. I did not say the "majority" of UK police carry firearms, I did say that they have had firearms for many years. use your google skills to search London gun crime, it has increased since the gun ban, wonder why? There are ALWAYS armed police officers on the streets of London, have been for years no "special circumstances" required. If you go to London, look for police vans with several police officers riding in them, it's called the "Rapid Response Unit" They are all armed, go to Heathrow or Gatwick, they are all armed.

5. Where did I say that I was "a participant"? I do have a CWP and have received training in the use of a firearm for self defense.

6.If you don't care then why bother to utilise your time on here posting?

 

[Britpilot]

but we are not opening the door. Period. 9/11 will never happen again unless it is an inside job with sleeper agents.

But we are opening the door in-flight, that's the point.
Never say "never"

 

[Lear70]

People aren't getting the point...

Do you have any idea how easy it is to carry a small quantity of Semtex through security or how easy it is to construct a detonator of common electronic circuitry? I'm not even an EOD professional and I could make one, not to mention the basic recipe for Semtex is easily found online.

The door can be breached. A business- or first-class passenger could easily jump into the cockpit when the door is opened by the F/A on a long-haul flight. How many F/A's still barricade the corridor with the galley cart? (Not many on the 3-4 flights I ride in every month).

The whole POINT of the FFDO program is deterrance. The terrorists don't know who is or is not armed on the flight when they're in the planning stages, your stupid fag bags notwithstanding (hint, get a different carry method, most of you are easy to pick out in the terminal).

So yes, the program IS effective from a deterrant point of view. Case in point, they haven't tried it again, and passengers are only a small part of the reason why.

As far as "penis envy" or any other such nonsense, I believe, as do others, that a well-armed populace is a lower-crime populace. When the criminals believe there's a good chance they might be shot if they try something with someone, they'll find a different target ot stop altogether.

Deterrance is the entire point to being armed. Those of you who don't get it have never been on the business end of a weapon pointed at you with malicious intent.

Try it once, it'll change your whole outlook. Promise.

 

[Tristar]

Corporal:

Try and actually read and respond to the entire paragraph this time - your answers will be much more relevant.

Yep, police. They are at every passenger airport

'Splain to me how they are going to help me when they are at the airport, and I'm waaaayyyy up there in that little metal tube? Moral support maybe - I'm sure I'll feel much better knowing that the boys in blue feel really bad that we're up there alone having our throats cut.

Flying public. The showbomber was brought down by passengers and not by a someone with a gun. The last time someone used a weapon in the a/c ended up in a tragegy when passenger taking prescription drugs was MISTAKENLY killed.

I'm all for passengers taking responsibility for their own safety - heaven forbid if something ever happens on my flight, I hope they beat the perps to the point they have to wet-vac them out of the carpet.

Technically the guy wasn't on the airplane, and he wasn't accidentally killed - he was deliberately shot by federal agents after behaving erratically and acting in a threatening manner. Tragic? Certainly, but events like this happen - shall we disarm all law enforcement officers to insure that it never happens again? Try and use just a bit of logic here (obviously not your long suit - have a friend help you if necessary).

Am I? Read the first sentence from Wiki:

Oh, now THERE's an unimpeachable source of information! That would be the website that anyone can add anything to right? I also found a site on the net claiming that the holocaust never happened - shall we accept that at face value? Last time I was in London, the police were armed with more than just a nightstick.

Actually, I don't care anyway.

Evidence points to the contrary.

BTW - just over 70 years ago, there was another corporal who greatly expanded the gun control laws to disarm the populace. Do a little research and see how that turned out. (not comparing the two of you mind you, but you might do well to think outside of your cubicle a bit).

 

[Tristar]

Singlecoil -

I agree with most of what you say. I said for years before 9/11 that the common strategy was a joke, and I had envisioned an aircraft being used as a weapon (never thought of multiple, simultaneous attacks though). Like you, I don't advocate anyone who isn't personally willing to take that responsibility doing so - it's not for everyone, and I'm fine with that. I cannot stomach the anti's who are eager to disarm everyone except the criminal!

. . . Kill everybody in the back, we don't care, but we are not opening the door. Period. 9/11 will never happen again unless it is an inside job with sleeper agents. I don't feel the need to be armed to prevent a terrorist takeover, but if some do, I have no problem with that.

I have but one question to this: On a 12 hour flight, how do you get by without a food, a drink, or a pee break? (and yes, I know FFDO's aren't on the long-hauls right now - one of the major flaws in the program). Even on a transcon, man I have to hit the head at least once - hard to do through the door).

 

[Singlecoil]

I have but one question to this: On a 12 hour flight, how do you get by without a food, a drink, or a pee break? (and yes, I know FFDO's aren't on the long-hauls right now - one of the major flaws in the program). Even on a transcon, man I have to hit the head at least once - hard to do through the door).

Simple. Use the peep hole. If clear, open the door. If bum-rushed by terrorists, close the door regardless of which side of the door you are on. As soon as the door is closed, the airplane is not capable of becoming a guided missile. They can blow it up or do whatever they want behind the door, but the whole point of the FFDO program is to prevent the airplane from becoming a guided missile. Use the peep hole every single time you use the door in flight. Then when you open the door, immediately put your hand on the cabin side door knob, and don't take your hand off of it until the door is closed. If you are just passing meals, keep your foot right next to the open door ready to kick the door closed in an instant. I don't think any of us are trained on any of this, and I'm not sure why not.

 

[Flying-Corporal]

Corporal:

'Try and use just a bit of logic here (obviously not your long suit - have a friend help you if necessary).

That was a very mature statement. Thank you, I will ask a friend for help

 

[crxpilot]

Singlecoil -

I agree with most of what you say. I said for years before 9/11 that the common strategy was a joke, and I had envisioned an aircraft being used as a weapon (never thought of multiple, simultaneous attacks though). Like you, I don't advocate anyone who isn't personally willing to take that responsibility doing so - it's not for everyone, and I'm fine with that. I cannot stomach the anti's who are eager to disarm everyone except the criminal!



I have but one question to this: On a 12 hour flight, how do you get by without a food, a drink, or a pee break? (and yes, I know FFDO's aren't on the long-hauls right now - one of the major flaws in the program). Even on a transcon, man I have to hit the head at least once - hard to do through the door).

I am surprised that while they are designing the 787 that they havent made it with a potty behind the cockpit door.

 

[Skank]

And Soccer Moms everywhere say "Good! I was never comfortable with guns so close to my kids anyway!" This is "good" politics, not good policy. I support the program, but keep in mind that there are a good many irrational people who don't, and many of them vote Dem.

That's a nice "fair and balanced" spin on things.

 

[Blue Dude]

That's a nice "fair and balanced" spin on things.

Well, you've got the idea anyway. If this is going to be policy, it's policy that will play well with the gun control crowd rather one based on a sober assessment of potential threats. Politics vs. substance. If the man is willing to worsen a fairly routine economic downturn to further his ideological goals rather than fix what's broken with time-proven methods (though they may not immediately further his ideology), then what hope do we have that he'll follow through logically on the tiny FFDO program? Obama isn't interested in what works, only what looks good on the surface to his supporters, or gets them reelected. Personal observation, not Fox News', which I don't watch. Only two months in and a few trillion dollars spent is evidence enough for me to draw a conclusion or two. Sorry, got off track a little. Where's the decaf?

 

[Monster Buck]

I think the point many are trying to make here is that the true weakness in the system on 9/11 was the "common strategy" which the terrorist well knew and exploited. Who else on here watched the "Barney Fife" video on hijacking every year in recurrent? We were trained that hijacking was a big joke and it was a waste of time to discuss the subject every year. Just let them into the cockpit and lead them to believe that people outside the cockpit had control over the flight and where the airplane went. Then you face forward and have your throat cut. That is what happened on 9/11. That will never happen again. Kill everybody in the back, we don't care, but we are not opening the door. Period. 9/11 will never happen again unless it is an inside job with sleeper agents. I don't feel the need to be armed to prevent a terrorist takeover, but if some do, I have no problem with that.

There it is again. The door will save me. Well you either don't ever go on long flights or just take a bottle with a LADY J adapter with you. On long flights the door opens several times. But I am sure that big burly fa will stop them while you go pee. Or that paper thin wall in the bathroom will stop them.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

If the airplanes security is solely dependent on that cockpit door then we are all screwed. That door will delay them for seconds, not minutes. You still need a strategy after a threat has been identified.

The FFDO program may have its flaws, but it is the best program available to pilots to have the latest information and training to get the airplane on the ground in an emergency. While I am sure there are FFDO's that have gone through the program for the wrong reasons, the majority I have met volunteer their time to be a deterent to future acts of terrorism. Thank you.

To those of you who are bashing the program, I hope you train and plan in some way OTHER than the weak training provided once a year by your airline to protect yourself and those in the back of your airplane. Are some of you saying you are so sure of our TSA that you are willing to blindly trust your security to their eagle eyes?

 

[JT8D]

Hopefully we don't have another 9-11
I am sure the door or asking them to stop and not escalate will do the trick.

"Nuff said"

Your whole 'airline' career is probably post 9-11.

Just so you know, PRIOR to 9-11, the procedure for Hijackings was "cooperate don't escalate". In essence give the bad guys what they want, take them where they want to go and the situation will end eventually.

Well, on 9-11 the bad guys took full advantage of that policy. The second WTC crew were standing aallllllll the way in the back of the AC.

Had the policy been different and some index fingers got stuck in some eyeballs we probably wouldn't have a site called 'ground zero'.

 

[Daytonaflyer]

As I suspected, that editorial was a vast misrepresentation of the truth. The funds had been directed toward setting up more effective administration and training for the FFDO program. They have not been taken away from the program at all, rather they are being used to strengthen the infrastructure of the program. The next dispersement of funds will be for training new officers. Typical from the Washington Times editorial section.

 

[DrewBlows]

ALPA Fast Read

TSA Reconfirms Commitment to FFDO Program March 17, 2009 In stark contrast to an op-ed article in today’s edition (March 17, 2009) of the Washington Times, that claims “…President Obama is quietly ending the federal firearms program, risking public safety on airlines in the name of an anti-gun ideology,” TSA officials reassured ALPA they are committed to the FFDO program and have plans for its expansion. TSA’s leadership immediately contacted ALPA and requested a meeting to discuss this news report. ALPA representatives met with TSA executives this afternoon and were told that TSA embraces the FFDO program, that there are no plans to reduce or restrict its growth, and that the agency fully intends to grow and expand the program.
Government representatives acknowledged that the program needs additional funding to achieve these goals, and that they are actively pursuing sources of additional funding. These funds will be used to enhance the program’s management structure and oversight, which if implemented, will address an ALPA Board of Directors security priority.
TSA is currently training hundreds of pilots each year and plans to continue to train at least that number or more into the future. The size of the FFDO cadre has grown so large that additional resources are needed to provide greater structure and oversight to this important program, which TSA referred to today as “an important layer of defense.”
“ALPA is very pleased that the TSA was so proactive in communicating its concerns to the Association and we are likewise pleased that we are able to report this good news to the membership,” said ALPA President, Capt. John Prater. “ALPA values its relationship with the TSA, and it is obvious from the way the agency handled this event that the feeling is mutual.”
Stay tuned.

 

[Max Powers]

Its amazing how neo-conservative fools such as Rush, Coulters, Rove and Chenney etc are ruining the Republican party with their fear mongering and nonsensical talk.

As you can see another myth debunked but not after it has done harm to the populace.

 

[ultrarunner]

... I've had that gun pointed at me on three different occasions (in the cockpit) while the idiot owner of the gun was unlocking the trigger lock. I was not happy.

What do you expect when you put a gun in someones hand that has NEVER owned one, used one, and knows absolutely NOTHING about weapon-retention. Expect what they learned at the quick-and-dirty FFDO training class.

No reason for those handguns to be on the flight deck.

 

[Tristar]

Simple. Use the peep hole. If clear, open the door. If bum-rushed by terrorists, close the door regardless of which side of the door you are on. . . I don't think any of us are trained on any of this, and I'm not sure why not.

I don't know what aircraft you've flown, but I can assure you there are a number of types out there where the peep hole (while better than nothing) has a VERY limited field of view, and with the layouts of the galley, two aisles, ect does not provide any assurance that someone isn't hiding around the corner. I didn't need to be trained on blocking/closing the door - to me that's common sense. That said, if a couple of big guys rush that door, it's going to be darn hard for me to get it closed - regardless of technique and readiness on my part.

IF they do get in the cockpit, the aircraft CAN be used as a weapon. Along with it's deterrent status (for ALL potential hijackings, not just 9/11 style attacks), the FFDO program does indeed provide a last line of defense (along with DOD shoot down authority - personally I find a gun in the cockpit much more palatable than a missle up the keister).