Vote underway at Skywest

[120% Torque]

Just wanted to throw this out there because the last several votes at Skywest have gone down with a lot of peculiarities. The group that is supposed to represent the pilots (Sapa) is all in favor of this latest proposal. They are also soley conducting and controlling the vote. An informal poll has shown a 91% rejection of the latest pay proposal. Just like the 70 for 50 everybody seems to be against this proposal yet somehow the last one passed. With the voting system there are specific codes assigned for pilots based on ss number and name. This is linked to pilots on the pilot list. The big problem is that at the whim of the persons conducting the vote, Sapa, they can generate as many additional vote codes as they please. Furthermore, what is to stop those in charge from assigning unused votes in the final minutes before the polls close? Once again, keep in mind Sapa is all for this proposal and Sapa has the ability to manipulate the vote. Don’t want to be a conspiracy theorist but with no audit or anybody else who is opposed to this proposal looking over the shoulder of the couple of people in charge they might feel based upon their personal objectives they need to "help this vote along". Talk amongst yourselves.

 

[FlamingFUPA]

I think i hear black helicopters!!!!!!!!

 

[120% Torque]

Btw, dont believe sapa when they tell you the votes cant be manipulated, go directly to the providers of the vote system and they will tell you that unless they are hired for an additional fee to conduct the vote as an unbiased third party moderator the vote can be effected by those who control the system. In fact with this system new vote codes can be generated without any trouble at all. This is supposed to be used if someone was conducting a vote and more members were then allowed to vote. I believe the system was also designed (assuming not being conducted by the vote software provider) and implimented with people on both sides of the table to audit and verify a legitimate vote. Unfortunately once again management and in this case sapa controls alll the cards. Dont be surprised when the vote passes and sapa says something to the effect that alot of people realized the value of "dont leave money on the table" which is one of the soundbytes of the sapa crap pay agreement campaign 2005. Same stuff, different year. Then every pilot you talk to for the next three years will say they voted against the proposal (and they probably did) but everybody will be scratching their heads wondering what happened but will have no recourse.

 

[viper548]

Dont be surprised when the vote passes and sapa says something to the effect that alot of people realized the value of "dont leave money on the table"

I'm willing to leave my money on the table. Do you have change for a quarter?

 

[Texx]

I'm willing to leave my money on the table. Do you have change for a quarter?

I'm happy to see the Skywest pilots taking a stand.

The most important vote is not before you now but will be the one your pilot group takes with the NLRB. Most of the Skywest pilots have been down that road several times before but this time it will have the greatest impact on their pilot group.

Good luck.

 

[synchoff]

Well, it's not any better at this ALPA carrier (Mesa).

Ballots for nomonies for local exectuive council representatives (LEC's) are mailed DIRECTLY to the CURRENT HOME ADDRESS of the LEC guy who's position is on the line (re: has the most to lose) to be counted.

Not saying this is automatically corrupting. But I can't think of any LEGITIMATE democratic process that sends it's ballots direct to the home of the guy who stands to lose his spot.

Go figure.

 

[atrdriver]

At least if they vote in ALPA they will have some recourse if and when management starts trying to play one group against the other. As it is they have no recourse, leverage, or anything else to help them fight.

 

[auspac]

"The group that is supposed to represent the pilots (Sapa) is all in favor of this latest proposal."

I don't believe that. In fact they did not really endorse it but put it up for a vote for us to decide. I believe most SAPA guys are pretty frustrated that after months of continued negotiations the best they could get out of management was the same that was offered early in the year. Obviously SAPA has no leverage and we as a pilot group will have to decide whether we are willing to pay for the type of leverage that a union can provide. We can say what we want about SAPA as a body but I believe that most of the individuals who make up SAPA are hard working guys who are trying to make a difference. Most of them spend a lot of unpaid time for our benefit. No, I am not and never have been in SAPA but I respect those who are trying to make a difference. Have you "120% Torque" ever tried to make a difference within SAPA, or will you work for ALPA if we go down that road?

 

[Splert]

Most of them spend a lot of unpaid time for our benefit.

Each one is paid either 105 hours a month or 2 for 1 duty time for SAPA related duties (day off, on duty or on an overnight) and/or trip coverage. On top of this MBIP is paid on SAPA pay.

 

[Heavy Set]

Message to Skywest Pilots: DON'T BLOW IT!!!!!! This is your chance to regain some of your lost respect in the regional industry. Think LONG-TERM.... The terms being offered are a complete JOKE and everyone is watching to see your response.

 

[FL280]

Message to Skywest Pilots: DON'T BLOW IT!!!!!! This is your chance to regain some of your lost respect in the regional industry. Think LONG-TERM.... The terms being offered are a complete JOKE and everyone is watching to see your response.

heavy, go back to your ms fltsim, your not a pilot.

 

[Heavy Set]

heavy, go back to your ms fltsim, your not a pilot.

Ohhh you got me!!!! I guess stating the obvious about Skywest is just too much for you.

 

[auspac]

"Each one is paid either 105 hours a month or 2 for 1 duty time for SAPA related duties (day off, on duty or on an overnight) and/or trip coverage. On top of this MBIP is paid on SAPA pay."

True - I believe only the president and secretary receive the 105 hours, the others are paid for meetings and travel, and I do think that most spend much time that is unpaid for our benefit. If it was such a lucrative position to be a SAPA representative I doubt if we'd see elections go uncontested or have only two or three people running.

 

[Bluto]

"The group that is supposed to represent the pilots (Sapa) is all in favor of this latest proposal."

I don't believe that. In fact they did not really endorse it but put it up for a vote for us to decide.

The SAPA representative board explicitly recommended a vote FOR the pay proposal.
Any questions?

To be fair, there are definitely reps who disagree with the representative board, but they are, after all, the representative board. Meaning, they represent SAPA.

 

[Splert]

"Each one is paid either 105 hours a month or 2 for 1 duty time for SAPA related duties (day off, on duty or on an overnight) and/or trip coverage. On top of this MBIP is paid on SAPA pay."

True - I believe only the president and secretary receive the 105 hours, the others are paid for meetings and travel, and I do think that most spend much time that is unpaid for our benefit. If it was such a lucrative position to be a SAPA representative I doubt if we'd see elections go uncontested or have only two or three people running.

I have heard some representative credit around 140 hours a month. Others have asked SAPA to release what they credit for SAPA related duties. No reply.

They are paid 2 for 1 flight pay for SAPA related stuff. If a SAPA representative is on an overnight, at home or on a DH he can bill the company for SAPA related duty. It’s a great part time job and fits nice into reserve or line flying.

Here is a test.

Go to the SAPA site and use the GMT and request they release what they earn from SAPA. Remember it took them almost 3 years to admit they even got paid. The ol' 'we are just volunteers' BS.

The group will never know how 'lucrative" the position is without the data, right?

SAPA will not release the data. I know because others have asked.

 

[Bluto]

That's disturbing Splert, I can't wait until the next time a SAPA guy bashes ALPA national for making so much cash...

 

[Halo_RJdriver]

Vote no for the sorry trailer trash proposal!

SGU is already chatting with ASA about 900's they don't give us the time of day.

Sapa don't go away mad, JUST GO AWAY!!!

 

[difete]

I am all for a "NO" on this vote. But then what? Managment says, ok then, see ya... There is nothing else SAPA can do. I think to be paid by aircraft type, while all other competitors (regionals) compensate by seating arrangment is not a form of compensation that is fair and competitive with the current market.

To fly a 90 seater for a 50 seat salary?? So much for profit sharing.

My .2 cents.

 

[OCP]

I have heard some representative credit around 140 hours a month. Others have asked SAPA to release what they credit for SAPA related duties. No reply.

They are paid 2 for 1 flight pay for SAPA related stuff. If a SAPA representative is on an overnight, at home or on a DH he can bill the company for SAPA related duty. It’s a great part time job and fits nice into reserve or line flying.

Here is a test.

Go to the SAPA site and use the GMT and request they release what they earn from SAPA. Remember it took them almost 3 years to admit they even got paid. The ol' 'we are just volunteers' BS.

The group will never know how 'lucrative" the position is without the data, right?

SAPA will not release the data. I know because others have asked.

Would seem like the SAPA guys would really NOT want SAPA to go away with pay rates like that!

 

[Rick James]

I'm getting really tired of my new FO's telling me "who cares 1.2% is better than nothing". I should have a script trying to explain how little they know of the industry. Thankfully, every now and then I'll get a Laker or someone that's atleast done more than flight instructing to exchange ideas with. I have a feeling things are really going to change at SKW with ASA and all the new BK's.

 

[Plug]

Vote no for the sorry trailer trash proposal!

SGU is already chatting with ASA about 900's they don't give us the time of day.

Sapa don't go away mad, JUST GO AWAY!!!

You are right, Jerry and company were here in ATL all week and the CRJ 705/900 was mentioned quite a bit. It was not stated as to which company they would go but the plan is not to pit one group against the other. Yeah right, actions speak louder than words. I hope the no vote passes so they can float this turd down the ASA negotiating river for us to say "hell NO" on.

On the ALPA note, how is the interest out west? I have heard some disturbing talk that some of the ALPA malcontents, also known as RJDC, are planning to derail the drive for ALPA. If these folks appear in your crew lounge you should listen to what they have to say with a 10lb bag of salt. The RJDC has brought up some good points and has a real issue with ALPA scope at the mainline carriers. Most of this comes out of the CMR camp and they are especially bitter given recent events, understandably so, but you have to take history in to account also.

CMR was pissed from the start when DAL bought them because they were about to be a standalone airline, buy Spirit, yada yada yada... They may have but that wasn't how the cookie crumbled. They say that mainline scope is way too restrictive and has a devastating affect on your career. Well, if anything mainline scope was poor in the sense that it didn't help the mainline pilots as much as they thought and in fact DCI has grown tremendously over the last 5 years in fleet size and aircraft size. Neither ASA, CMR, or SKW has furloughed to this point, unlike mainline.

RJDC's response to that is "mainline scope allowed a bidding war for DCI flying and a subsequent 'race to the bottom', and that is because they did not allow the WO's to negotiate with DAL for scope of DCI flying." Remember this, the RJDC feels that the WO's are more entitled than non WO's like SKW. When you are negotiating a percentage of your flying away to be outsourced, should you really be concerned with who it is outsourced to? It all comes down to timing!

Fact is that ALPA is the only union for an airline pilot. Aeromed., legal, etc. are top notch and an asset that would not be found at any other union. Does ALPA have its faults? Hell yeah, and letting the RJ cat out of the bag is one of them, but hindsight is 20/20 and the RJDC loves to say "I told you so."

I know I hijacked this thread, but there is a reason. It sounds like no matter how you vote on this POS proposal the result will be the result that SGU and SAPA wants. This is simply mental masturbation for the Skywest pilots. If you want the real deal then you need to vote in a union that gives you that voice and gives you the tools necessary to have some say as to how your career at Skywest will be.

Cheers

 

[auspac]

Bluto. Personally I don't believe it's right to cut and paste internal communications to this board so I will simply refer to the letter to pilots that DA sent on Sep 22.

 

[Bluto]

What exactly is "internal" about this message? Why wouldn't SAPA want it's feelings on this agreement known unless they were ashamed of it? More importantly, now that it's been posted, I'm surprised you still don't feel the need to retract your previous statement. It's clear that SAPA does in fact endorse this proposal, as they themselves have stated. Care to correct yourself? Or not?

 

[Dave Benjamin]

The more internal information you post here the less you'll get in the future. Posting details of the TA is fine. There's no need to cut and paste entire emails from SAPA though. I've seen some folks do the same thing with comm from BH. Keep the stuff off Flightinfo. The folks that need to know are already getting it.

 

[Bluto]

Dave, it's edited out of respect for you. To be fair, I only pasted a few sentences specifically refuting auspac's inaccurate post. I shouldn't have put it there in the first place, though. Sorry.

 

[Halo_RJdriver]

What exactly is "internal" about this message? Why wouldn't SAPA want it's feelings on this agreement known unless they were ashamed of it? More importantly, now that it's been posted, I'm surprised you still don't feel the need to retract your previous statement. It's clear that SAPA does in fact endorse this proposal, as they themselves have stated. Care to correct yourself? Or not?

damn straight. Nice post Bluto

www.skywest.alpa.org

VOTE NO BOYZZZ

 

[surplus1]

I have heard some disturbing talk that some of the ALPA malcontents, also known as RJDC, are planning to derail the drive for ALPA. If these folks appear in your crew lounge you should listen to what they have to say with a 10lb bag of salt. The RJDC has brought up some good points and has a real issue with ALPA scope at the mainline carriers. Most of this comes out of the CMR camp and they are especially bitter given recent events, understandably so, but you have to take history in to account also.

I'm in the "CMR camp" and I'm going to call you what you are: a liar. I don't believe you have "heard" anything for there is nothing to hear. Your allegation is false. The information you are putting out about the RJDC opposing any airline joining ALPA is blatantly false. I don't really care whether you like the RJDC or you don't but there is no need for you to lie about it.

The RJDC does not interfere and has never interfered in the political process, not at CMR itself and not anywhere else. The RJDC does NOT oppose anyone joining ALPA. The RJDC has never asked CMR pilots or ASA pilots to consider leaving ALPA. In fact the RJDC is against the idea of leaving ALPA.

If SKYW pilots would like to join ALPA that would be a great idea. They would be welcome.

The RJDC litigation is an effort to get ALPA to honor its Duty of Fair Representation to the CMR and ASA pilots. It has nothing to do with leaving ALPA and all of the RJDC leaders and members at Comair are also ALPA members in good standing.

There's nothing worse than running your mouth when you don't know what you're talking about or to deliberately spread false information. SKYW pilots will never see anyone from the RJDC asking them not to join ALPA. That just isn't true!

Stop spreading false propaganda! Now go back into your hole and STFU.

 

[Texx]

I'm in the "CMR camp" ...

Stop spreading false propaganda! Now go back into your hole and STFU.

For the Skywest pilots, as you can see he is truly a professional.

 

[No Delay]

I posted this on another thread but I thought it would fit here also. I am posting this not to fight but because I really don't understand...



I am having a hard time understanding what the big deal is in having a different pay scale for different size airplanes. I know some of you are passionate about it...and that's definately your right. I just don't get it. To me, it is the same amount of work to fly a 40 and a 50 seat...I can't see the 70 or 90 being that much more work????

Do mechanics have a different pay scale for the airplanes they work on? F/A? What about the rampers (it definately more work for them)???

I think pay should be based on experience...maybe an increase in the upper ranges in longevity scale. I think there is more value in an experienced pilot versus a pilot who can fly a 50 or a 90 seat airplane. (Any I am way at the bottom of the experience ladder, so I am not trying to give myself a raise).

Scheduling issues and QOL issues just seems like it would be so much more important to fight about. I would like to see major improvement in QOL, a slight pay raise across the board, and maybe a bigger spread (increase) in the longevity payscale.
Usually the senior guys get the bigger airplane...so essentially, they are being paid more on the bigger airplane. But in reality, they are getting paid more because they are more experienced...that just makes sense to me.

 

[synchoff]

I am having a hard time understanding what the big deal is in having a different pay scale for different size airplanes. I know some of you are passionate about it...and that's definately your right. I just don't get it. To me, it is the same amount of work to fly a 40 and a 50 seat...I can't see the 70 or 90 being that much more work????

It's very simple, really. It has NOTHING to do with workload.

Senior guys run the union. Senior guys want more pay. It's to their advantage to have different payscales, as their senority gives them the ability to bid schedules that have the larger aircraft/payscales.

A single payscale would be MUCH fairer for the group, but the senior boys insist "we've paid our dues" and carve out a little bit extra for themselves.

Ocam's razor, baby