Virgin America Revenue...

[poor2thecore]

Hey troll, why don't you just go away? You're annoying.

Leave the VX threads to the VX employees and people looking to educate themselves in order to get a job there.

Thanks! Merry Christmas.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Leave the VX threads to those who are undercutting the industry and those willing to join them? No way.

I will continue to shine the light of truth under the disgusting rock where you live.

 

[poor2thecore]

Leave the VX threads to those who are undercutting the industry and those willing to join them? No way.

I will continue to shine the light of truth under the disgusting rock where you live.

Hey I remember about 20 years ago Southwest used to pay 11 DOLLARS a trip for year 1 FO's. Undercutting enough? You bet. Those same "under cutters" and the one's "willing to join them" would probably disagree. Not only that, but crush you with their wallet.

They are taking a chance by going to VX just like the FO's did 20 years ago at SWA, and 10years ago at JetBlue. They may not fair as well, but it's a chance worth taking. The odds are far greater than the stagnant Alaska seniority list.

Cheers!

 

[jayme]

Sorry, the problems Virgin has ARE NOT due to putting in aircraft interiors. Every airline bears that cost. United is completely redesigning their first and business class product, but that doesn't mean the whole airline loses money. There are deep, structural issues at Virgin that are broken. For the 9 months ending Sept 30, you guys had a net loss of 70M on 760M of revenue.

In 2011 we added (I think) 11 new airplanes. We increased the fleet something like 34%. Your comparison of a new F and C class to completely modifying 34% of you fleet in 1 year is like comparing apples and orangutans.

And which "deep, structural issues" are you talking about?

Cheapest labor in the industry?
12+ hr a day aircraft utilization?
84% load factors?
Unit revenue that has finally reached industry standard, and unit revenue growth that outpaced industry average?
Transition to industry standard IT systems?
#1 in baggage handling?
#3 (I think) in on-time stats
99+% completion
Winner of every reader-based travel award? (No, not the JD Powers award, because we won't pay the $60,000 they require to be considered.)

This place is far from perfect from an employee standpoint, but "deep,structural issues?" No, I disagree.

 

[hoover84]

My guess VA did not get the 150 million in a lump sum payment....I'm sure it comes in the form of progressive payment if they hit certain targets....just a guess

 

[NEDude]

Just keeping up with you, NEDoosh.

You aren't trying to keep up, you are seeing me from behind because you have lapped me a few hundred times over.

 

[Dizel8]

Probably just an old rumor, but I heard or read, that the Bearded One personally guaranteed a certain percentage on invested money. He does have a few billions to his name, so he could certainly afford it.

http://crankyflier.com/2010/01/10/d...izen-but-it-requires-significant-concessions/

 

[Fubijaakr]

That's the ONLY way he could get investors in the first place. He guaranteed their return on investment. Is is a surprise he continues with his new money.

 

[ualdriver]

In 2011 we added (I think) 11 new airplanes. We increased the fleet something like 34%. Your comparison of a new F and C class to completely modifying 34% of you fleet in 1 year is like comparing apples and orangutans.

And which "deep, structural issues" are you talking about?

Cheapest labor in the industry?
12+ hr a day aircraft utilization?
84% load factors?
Unit revenue that has finally reached industry standard, and unit revenue growth that outpaced industry average?
Transition to industry standard IT systems?
#1 in baggage handling?
#3 (I think) in on-time stats
99+% completion
Winner of every reader-based travel award? (No, not the JD Powers award, because we won't pay the $60,000 they require to be considered.)

This place is far from perfect from an employee standpoint, but "deep,structural issues?" No, I disagree.

It doesn't matter if you were #1 in all of the above categories IF YOU CAN'T MAKE MONEY. That is the "deep, structural issue." Your airline is being run in a way such that for every 10 dollars you take in, one is lost. The interest on your debt is equal to HALF of your airline's ENTIRE labor costs. Don't believe me. Click the link below. Scroll just past the half-way point. They're your numbers, not mine. What does it matter if your 99+% completion and your #1 baggage handling leads to huge losses year after year? He11, a few of those metrics you mention aren't even financial ones. Who cares! If it makes you feel better, you can carve those stats on your airline's future tombstone.

Like I said, start feeling around for the handles so you know where they are. I'm not aware of any airline that has had those kind of losses and not either gone away or at least entered bankruptcy protection.

http://www.virginamerica.com/press-...rts-third-quarter-2011-financial-results.html

 

[jayme]

It doesn't matter if you were #1 in all of the above categories IF YOU CAN'T MAKE MONEY. That is the "deep, structural issue." Your airline is being run in a way such that for every 10 dollars you take in, one is lost. The interest on your debt is equal to HALF of your airline's ENTIRE labor costs. Don't believe me. Click the link below. Scroll just past the half-way point. They're your numbers, not mine. What does it matter if your 99+% completion and your #1 baggage handling leads to huge losses year after year? He11, a few of those metrics you mention aren't even financial ones. Who cares! If it makes you feel better, you can carve those stats on your airline's future tombstone.

Like I said, start feeling around for the handles so you know where they are. I'm not aware of any airline that has had those kind of losses and not either gone away or at least entered bankruptcy protection.

http://www.virginamerica.com/press-...rts-third-quarter-2011-financial-results.html

I see the "Wages, salaries and related costs" line, but not "interest" or even how much debt we have. Considering that isn't a balance sheet, I wouldn't expect to. So how much debt do we have and at what interest rate?

As for your "deep, structural issues", you never mentioned that only pertained to financial ones. So I gave you some concrete examples of "deep, structural" issues that put us at or near the top of the pack as far as what you need to run a good, profitable airline.

There are a few good reasons we haven't made money. We started about 9 months before the economy tanked. That's probably the biggest one. The rest of the industry insisting we go through another audit of our finances, during which time we couldn't finance our business plan. That's another. The huge cost of starting an airline with brand new, highly modified airplanes. Yup, that probably would cost a lot of money up front. Fuel prices spiking, while we open new markets? Yeah, that's not good. We had to discount our tickets to get people to try us, but at the same time paying $4/gallon for jet fuel. I guess I can see how an airline might lose a lot of money doing that. Does that equate to "deep, structural issues?" No, it does not. You were talking out of your ass.

 

[jayme]

Ok, I think I figured out how you got interest expense: EBITDA-earnings-taxes(assumed 0)-depreciation-amortization.

Assuming that's what you did, how is a high (if it is actually high compared to industry standard) interest expense:total labor costs a "deep, structural" issue? Especially considering our extremely low labor costs? Could you not have found a more arbitrary metric? How about interest expense:bird strikes/74 flight hours?

Maybe we do have an unhealthy amount of debt (who am I kidding? Of course we do.) That doesn't spell certain doom. Aren't you. The same guy who predicted Spirit's imminent demise? Of course the losses can't just continue. I just don't think they will. Only time will tell.

I get the feeling you jusy want guys to leave VX to drive up training costs

 

[jayme]

Double post

 

[Fubijaakr]

Who cares! If it makes you feel better, you can carve those stats on your airline's future tombstone.

Exactly. PeoplExpress was one of the most popular upstart airlines in history...right up to the day they closed their doors.

 

[NEDude]

Exactly. PeoplExpress was one of the most popular upstart airlines in history...right up to the day they closed their doors.

Ummm "closed their doors"?

Try again.

They certainly were struggling financially and could not survive alone was they were, but they did not close their doors.

Learn history before you spout off.

 

[Lake Alice]

People Express also expanded at a rate they were incapable of maintaining. They lacked a reservation system to handle their expansion. The rate of overbooking was a distinct flaw in their growth plan. Ultimately they sold out to Texas Air. Pilots got screwed.

 

[clickclickboom]

The problem is that VA took a few years to get started then came about at the absolute worst time a startup could have begun. Branson is offering guaranteed returns because he has to AND he is gambling that the operation will begin to make a profit.

I said it a long time ago that the smartest thing that JB could do is buy VA because they erode our revenue on competing routes but now with jb banking some serious revenue and va's unexclusive and unexciting route system I say that VA offers nothing that jb would want as SFO has shown to be low yield for us.

BUT we recognize that VA is getting a serious premium for first class.. A little birdie that told me that JB has a few birds slated for all first class 80-100 seats doing some transcon routes to lax, sfo, jfk, bos etc at a 35-40% discount over the all white seats flying it now

 

[n757st]

Some concerning numbers in your financial statement.

Profit q3 2010: 7 million
Profit q3 2011: -3 million

Profit year to date 2010: -43 million
Profit year to date 2011: -69 million

Operating profit 2010: - 1 million
Operating profit 2011: - 19 million

Ex fuel casm increased by 9%

I see your RASM increased, but looking at your financial statement things are concerning. Besides revenue every other financial metric deteriorated. I wish you the best of luck, seriously.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Some concerning numbers in your financial statement.

Profit q3 2010: 7 million
Profit q3 2011: -3 million

Profit year to date 2010: -43 million
Profit year to date 2011: -69 million

Operating profit 2010: - 1 million
Operating profit 2011: - 19 million

Ex fuel casm increased by 9%

I see your RASM increased, but looking at your financial statement things are concerning. Besides revenue every other financial metric deteriorated. I wish you the best of luck...

With those numbers, its going to take a lot more than luck. Its going to take Sir Dick bribing investors with "guaranteed" returns on their investment. That means pouring endless money down the rathole. The only ones that's good for are the rats.

 

[ualdriver]

I see the "Wages, salaries and related costs" line, but not "interest" or even how much debt we have. Considering that isn't a balance sheet, I wouldn't expect to. So how much debt do we have and at what interest rate?

Hey, that's a great question! How much debt DO YOU GUYS have and what is the weighted interest rate? I have a buddy that I chat with about airline financials as we both like airline stuff, and I jokingly refer to VA as the "hermit airline," in reference to North Korea being the "hermit nation." VA fought from the beginning to not release any Form 41 data at all. Remember? I think they lost that argument back in early 2009, so now we get these nebulous press releases. In fact, the only info I have been able to find about this most recent line of credit is that it is coming from a "hedge fund" and they supposedly don't have to pay it back right away, surprisingly. They won't talk about the details....

"The new money came through a debt facility, whose first repayment is due in 4 1/2 years. The company declined to describe repayment terms or name the lenders."

As far as how you can closely estimate how much interest you're paying (a lot!), go back to the VA website, scroll down to the Consolidated of Operations, and look at the line labeled, "Other (income) expense." Numbers in () on that line are good. Positive numbers are bad. Most airlines sum the total of their interest expense and interest income on that line. Obviously, since the number is a big positive number relative to gross income, they are paying lots of interest on debt. Take a look at what a mediocre performing airline like United pays as interest as a % of revenue and then look at yours. Heck, look at a bankrupt airline like American while you're at it. You guys are paying twice as much as a % of revenue on your debt, and it is likely going to go nowhere but up as you have to keep borrowing (at likely very unfavorable rates) to keep the operation solvent.

As for your "deep, structural issues", you never mentioned that only pertained to financial ones. So I gave you some concrete examples of "deep, structural" issues that put us at or near the top of the pack as far as what you need to run a good, profitable airline.

He-he. Yeah losing tons of money to me is indicative of "deep structural issues" whether you're #1 in on-time or whatever your favorite metric is. Would you rather be last in all those categories and make money every year or first and lose bucket loads? Right now you are in the latter category.

There are a few good reasons we haven't made money. We started about 9 months before the economy tanked. That's probably the biggest one. The rest of the industry insisting we go through another audit of our finances, during which time we couldn't finance our business plan. That's another. The huge cost of starting an airline with brand new, highly modified airplanes. Yup, that probably would cost a lot of money up front. Fuel prices spiking, while we open new markets? Yeah, that's not good. We had to discount our tickets to get people to try us, but at the same time paying $4/gallon for jet fuel. I guess I can see how an airline might lose a lot of money doing that. Does that equate to "deep, structural issues?" No, it does not. You were talking out of your ass.

Hmmmm.......didn't JetBlue come up during a pretty rough time in our economy? 9/11, a couple of big recessions, big stock market crash. That's a peer airline, isn't it? A320 operator, non-union, low fare, rapid growth, fancy specialized cabins, all that good stuff. Go back and take a look at how JetBlue was during those difficult times compared to how you guys are doing during similar difficult times. Let me know if I'm still talking out of my ass.

 

[Tomct]

Actually, NO. There is no one out there that has the complexity of our interiors. JB is a DISTANT second...if that! The funny thing is that we are actually making JB add F/C to their a/c...they have pulled back on competing with us on certain routes because we are taking their customers. Same as AA.


No one has a crystal ball and there are no guarantee's in this business, I believe that we will be around and if not for anything else, merge with someone...who knows. It makes me laugh to hear all the "High Minded" run our numbers and tell us how bad things are here at Virgin. And yet, miraculously can't explain how we are getting more money etc...etc...etc. Tell you what, worry about your "merged lists, inferior products and pissed off attitudes" and let history judge who was right.

Merry Christmas everyone and good luck.
P.S. If any Terrorist attack were to happen again, we would ALL be out of a job! God Bless!!

 

[jayme]

It's late, so just a quick response.

#1: I am not arguing that we are doing well financially. I am constantly disappointed and surprised at how crappy our financial performance is.

However, I disagree with your premise that we have "deep, structural issues," as you put it. "Issues," plural. You have speculated about 1 issue. And it is not structural.

You admittedly know nothing more about the structure of our debt than what has been publicly disseminated, and you admit that like North Korea, very little has been made public.

You were talking out of your ass.

 

[n757st]

Actually, NO. There is no one out there that has the complexity of our interiors. JB is a DISTANT second...if that! The funny thing is that we are actually making JB add F/C to their a/c...they have pulled back on competing with us on certain routes because we are taking their customers. Same as AA.


No one has a crystal ball and there are no guarantee's in this business, I believe that we will be around and if not for anything else, merge with someone...who knows. It makes me laugh to hear all the "High Minded" run our numbers and tell us how bad things are here at Virgin. And yet, miraculously can't explain how we are getting more money etc...etc...etc. Tell you what, worry about your "merged lists, inferior products and pissed off attitudes" and let history judge who was right.

Merry Christmas everyone and good luck.
P.S. If any Terrorist attack were to happen again, we would ALL be out of a job! God Bless!!

umm... what routes have we (jetblue) pulled back on? If we are adding first class its news to me, though i think it would be a good idea. I dont think anyone doubts va has a great product... the question is can you deliver that product and make money. I dont know the answer to that.

 

[ualdriver]

Actually, NO. There is no one out there that has the complexity of our interiors. JB is a DISTANT second...if that! The funny thing is that we are actually making JB add F/C to their a/c...they have pulled back on competing with us on certain routes because we are taking their customers. Same as AA.

No, the point is that WHEN JB was putting those interiors in, they were cutting edge. Just like your interiors several years later are cutting edge. You both marketed your respective products as such. Just because JB's may not be NOW, it WAS. Hence the comparison.

Further, JB did pull out of a lot of transcon markets that VA was flying because you guys were undercutting them with lower fares and your own niche product. I've posted before that VA took the pages right out of JB's early 2000 playbook. Offer a niche product, use below market rate labor to help undercut the competition. Lather, rinse repeat. The only difference between you guys and JB is that JB was/is much more profitable. When they undercut, they actually made money (mostly). You guys undercut and lose your behinds.

 

[ualdriver]

It's late, so just a quick response.

#1: I am not arguing that we are doing well financially. I am constantly disappointed and surprised at how crappy our financial performance is.

However, I disagree with your premise that we have "deep, structural issues," as you put it. "Issues," plural. You have speculated about 1 issue. And it is not structural.

You admittedly know nothing more about the structure of our debt than what has been publicly disseminated, and you admit that like North Korea, very little has been made public.

You were talking out of your ass.

Dude, you are hopeless. If you don't think that there are many issues that are contributing to your airline's significant losses, I don't know what to tell you. Hopefully your peers can bail out before that place implodes. You and Cush can stick around and try to figure out what that "one" non-structural, superficial thing is that's holding VA back.

 

[jayme]

I personally listed several issues that lead to losses just a few posts ago. Timing is probably the biggest one. That is neither "deep" nor "structural." You were being melodramatic.

 

[NEDude]

People Express also expanded at a rate they were incapable of maintaining. They lacked a reservation system to handle their expansion. The rate of overbooking was a distinct flaw in their growth plan. Ultimately they sold out to Texas Air. Pilots got screwed.

Jumpseating a few years ago on a CAL 757, the captain said that People Express was the best decision he could have ever made. He felt anything but screwed. He wound up a fairly senior 757/767 captain for a solid legacy carrier, while his buddies at TWA and Eastern got screwed.

There is no question People Express had issues: grew too quickly, lacked the proper infrastructure to handle the growth, etc. But they had a lot of assets that provided the foundation for today's United (Continental), like a major hub in the New York area.

 

[Lake Alice]

Actually, NO. There is no one out there that has the complexity of our interiors. JB is a DISTANT second...if that! The funny thing is that we are actually making JB add F/C to their a/c...they have pulled back on competing with us on certain routes because we are taking their customers. Same as AA.


No one has a crystal ball and there are no guarantee's in this business, I believe that we will be around and if not for anything else, merge with someone...who knows. It makes me laugh to hear all the "High Minded" run our numbers and tell us how bad things are here at Virgin. And yet, miraculously can't explain how we are getting more money etc...etc...etc. Tell you what, worry about your "merged lists, inferior products and pissed off attitudes" and let history judge who was right.

Merry Christmas everyone and good luck.
P.S. If any Terrorist attack were to happen again, we would ALL be out of a job! God Bless!!

What Jetblue has done was pull back on certain transcon routes because of VX prices. Jetblue is smart enough to not flood the route if it breaking even. VX is losing a substantial amount on transcons. Jetblue is able to make it up on other routes while VX currently is not.

 

[Lake Alice]

Jumpseating a few years ago on a CAL 757, the captain said that People Express was the best decision he could have ever made. He felt anything but screwed. He wound up a fairly senior 757/767 captain for a solid legacy carrier, while his buddies at TWA and Eastern got screwed.

There is no question People Express had issues: grew too quickly, lacked the proper infrastructure to handle the growth, etc. But they had a lot of assets that provided the foundation for today's United (Continental), like a major hub in the New York area.

You need to expend your horizons a little and not base an entire opinion on one 757/767 captain.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Jumpseating a few years ago on a CAL 757, the captain said that People Express was the best decision he could have ever made..

If so, it was because he was a CA when they merged. The CAs got DoH, the rest got stapled. Not so great a deal for them. I see you're banking on a buyout before the moneypit claims the company. Gotd luck with that.

You need to expend your horizons a little and not base an entire opinion on one 757/767 captain.

He can't. He's addicted to the Red Kool-Aid...

 

[Lake Alice]

Give him time. You and I drank the blue juice, or versions there of, once.