Virgin America Revenue...

[ualdriver]

For some it's the only gig available!

I mean if some decent airlines start hiring again with the up anand ccoming retirements starting up again. Maybe (just maybe) there will be some opportunities in the up and coming months. Once those opportunities start appearing, pull the handles hard.

 

[NEDude]

Yeah, I can explain while Virgin keeps getting money....people looking for yield in a low interest rate environment, people willing to take risk, people that think VA will be around long enough to pay THEM back but not necessarily others. And of course there is that quote in Hard Landings that basically stated that people with money just have a love affair with airlines and for some reason are always willing to throw money at them.

By this logic, most start-up airlines should have had people willing to invest despite losses. But that is not the case, the history books are filled with airlines who died because investors pulled the plug. Why, in very lean times, has Virgin continued to get capital while in more robust times, other airlines could not?

 

[Lake Alice]

I think you are missing his point. When Sky Bus went under interest rates were no where near todays rates. The original investors for Sky Bus/Indy etc and Virgin are vastly different. I don't think it's an easy comparison.

 

[ualdriver]

By this logic, most start-up airlines should have had people willing to invest despite losses. But that is not the case, the history books are filled with airlines who died because investors pulled the plug. Why, in very lean times, has Virgin continued to get capital while in more robust times, other airlines could not?

Because for whatever reason you're not there yet. No one knows what the trigger will be. Maybe it will be $150 oil. Maybe it will be a terrorist attack. Maybe it is the next economic downturn. Maybe one of your notes becomes due and you can't find anyone willing to reloan you the principal. Whatever the trigger becomes, you can't keep losing one dollar of every ten you bring in. Reading your press releases is like watching a slow motion train wreck. I can recognize it because I saw it my airline. One day, a note came due and they couldn't roll it. Why they could roll the one before and not that one is beyond my memory, but if you keep losing cash, one day you won't be able to get a new credit card. Hopefully for your guys you'll read about that day when you're on a layover for a different airline.

 

[Fubijaakr]

There is no mystery. Virgin keeps expanding because their financial situation is an unstable bubble and it's either expand or implode. There is no stable option so they must grow. So long as they are growing they can convince investors everything is OK and profitability is right around the corner. Maybe they are right. But I wouldn't put too much faith in the omniscient intelligence of corporate investors. There is plenty of money out there looking for a higher rate of return and willing to take big risks. If history has taught us one thing it's that people learn nothing from history.

This is a perfect analysis of VX and its place in the industry. Any of you ever heard of a ponzi scheme? That's all VX is...a giant aviation ponzi scheme.

 

[Fubijaakr]

For some it's the only gig available!

Thats the reason why Jetblue is in business.

Anyone who fits these criteria has no business being in the industry.

Whatever the trigger becomes, you can't keep losing one dollar of every ten you bring in. Reading your press releases is like watching a slow motion train wreck. I can recognize it because I saw it my airline.... if you keep losing cash, one day you won't be able to get a new credit card..

What is it about this simple economic theory guys like NEDoosh don't understand?

 

[NEDude]

Anyone who fits these criteria has no business being in the industry.



What is it about this simple economic theory guys like NEDoosh don't understand?

Name calling, the first, and last, resort of the weak minded. Thanks for proving that Fubi.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Just keeping up with you, NEDoosh.

 

[cmrflyer]

Fubi, you are a sad little chap.

 

[Fubijaakr]

You and NEDoosh can compare notes at Taco Bell.

 

[poor2thecore]

Hey troll, why don't you just go away? You're annoying.

Leave the VX threads to the VX employees and people looking to educate themselves in order to get a job there.

Thanks! Merry Christmas.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Leave the VX threads to those who are undercutting the industry and those willing to join them? No way.

I will continue to shine the light of truth under the disgusting rock where you live.

 

[poor2thecore]

Leave the VX threads to those who are undercutting the industry and those willing to join them? No way.

I will continue to shine the light of truth under the disgusting rock where you live.

Hey I remember about 20 years ago Southwest used to pay 11 DOLLARS a trip for year 1 FO's. Undercutting enough? You bet. Those same "under cutters" and the one's "willing to join them" would probably disagree. Not only that, but crush you with their wallet.

They are taking a chance by going to VX just like the FO's did 20 years ago at SWA, and 10years ago at JetBlue. They may not fair as well, but it's a chance worth taking. The odds are far greater than the stagnant Alaska seniority list.

Cheers!

 

[jayme]

Sorry, the problems Virgin has ARE NOT due to putting in aircraft interiors. Every airline bears that cost. United is completely redesigning their first and business class product, but that doesn't mean the whole airline loses money. There are deep, structural issues at Virgin that are broken. For the 9 months ending Sept 30, you guys had a net loss of 70M on 760M of revenue.

In 2011 we added (I think) 11 new airplanes. We increased the fleet something like 34%. Your comparison of a new F and C class to completely modifying 34% of you fleet in 1 year is like comparing apples and orangutans.

And which "deep, structural issues" are you talking about?

Cheapest labor in the industry?
12+ hr a day aircraft utilization?
84% load factors?
Unit revenue that has finally reached industry standard, and unit revenue growth that outpaced industry average?
Transition to industry standard IT systems?
#1 in baggage handling?
#3 (I think) in on-time stats
99+% completion
Winner of every reader-based travel award? (No, not the JD Powers award, because we won't pay the $60,000 they require to be considered.)

This place is far from perfect from an employee standpoint, but "deep,structural issues?" No, I disagree.

 

[hoover84]

My guess VA did not get the 150 million in a lump sum payment....I'm sure it comes in the form of progressive payment if they hit certain targets....just a guess

 

[NEDude]

Just keeping up with you, NEDoosh.

You aren't trying to keep up, you are seeing me from behind because you have lapped me a few hundred times over.

 

[Dizel8]

Probably just an old rumor, but I heard or read, that the Bearded One personally guaranteed a certain percentage on invested money. He does have a few billions to his name, so he could certainly afford it.

http://crankyflier.com/2010/01/10/d...izen-but-it-requires-significant-concessions/

 

[Fubijaakr]

That's the ONLY way he could get investors in the first place. He guaranteed their return on investment. Is is a surprise he continues with his new money.

 

[ualdriver]

In 2011 we added (I think) 11 new airplanes. We increased the fleet something like 34%. Your comparison of a new F and C class to completely modifying 34% of you fleet in 1 year is like comparing apples and orangutans.

And which "deep, structural issues" are you talking about?

Cheapest labor in the industry?
12+ hr a day aircraft utilization?
84% load factors?
Unit revenue that has finally reached industry standard, and unit revenue growth that outpaced industry average?
Transition to industry standard IT systems?
#1 in baggage handling?
#3 (I think) in on-time stats
99+% completion
Winner of every reader-based travel award? (No, not the JD Powers award, because we won't pay the $60,000 they require to be considered.)

This place is far from perfect from an employee standpoint, but "deep,structural issues?" No, I disagree.

It doesn't matter if you were #1 in all of the above categories IF YOU CAN'T MAKE MONEY. That is the "deep, structural issue." Your airline is being run in a way such that for every 10 dollars you take in, one is lost. The interest on your debt is equal to HALF of your airline's ENTIRE labor costs. Don't believe me. Click the link below. Scroll just past the half-way point. They're your numbers, not mine. What does it matter if your 99+% completion and your #1 baggage handling leads to huge losses year after year? He11, a few of those metrics you mention aren't even financial ones. Who cares! If it makes you feel better, you can carve those stats on your airline's future tombstone.

Like I said, start feeling around for the handles so you know where they are. I'm not aware of any airline that has had those kind of losses and not either gone away or at least entered bankruptcy protection.

http://www.virginamerica.com/press-...rts-third-quarter-2011-financial-results.html

 

[jayme]

It doesn't matter if you were #1 in all of the above categories IF YOU CAN'T MAKE MONEY. That is the "deep, structural issue." Your airline is being run in a way such that for every 10 dollars you take in, one is lost. The interest on your debt is equal to HALF of your airline's ENTIRE labor costs. Don't believe me. Click the link below. Scroll just past the half-way point. They're your numbers, not mine. What does it matter if your 99+% completion and your #1 baggage handling leads to huge losses year after year? He11, a few of those metrics you mention aren't even financial ones. Who cares! If it makes you feel better, you can carve those stats on your airline's future tombstone.

Like I said, start feeling around for the handles so you know where they are. I'm not aware of any airline that has had those kind of losses and not either gone away or at least entered bankruptcy protection.

http://www.virginamerica.com/press-...rts-third-quarter-2011-financial-results.html

I see the "Wages, salaries and related costs" line, but not "interest" or even how much debt we have. Considering that isn't a balance sheet, I wouldn't expect to. So how much debt do we have and at what interest rate?

As for your "deep, structural issues", you never mentioned that only pertained to financial ones. So I gave you some concrete examples of "deep, structural" issues that put us at or near the top of the pack as far as what you need to run a good, profitable airline.

There are a few good reasons we haven't made money. We started about 9 months before the economy tanked. That's probably the biggest one. The rest of the industry insisting we go through another audit of our finances, during which time we couldn't finance our business plan. That's another. The huge cost of starting an airline with brand new, highly modified airplanes. Yup, that probably would cost a lot of money up front. Fuel prices spiking, while we open new markets? Yeah, that's not good. We had to discount our tickets to get people to try us, but at the same time paying $4/gallon for jet fuel. I guess I can see how an airline might lose a lot of money doing that. Does that equate to "deep, structural issues?" No, it does not. You were talking out of your ass.